William and Mary is one of the few DI original teams that has not made the NCAA tournament. Would be really funny if the A10 added them

The other thing with Fordham is that they run a "Patriot-style" athletics department.

What I mean by that is the athletic goal of the university.

The Ivy & Patriot mentality is: "Win the conference commissioner's cup." Sponsor as many sports as the conference has, more than that even, and fund them to all finish as high as possible in the conference.

The A-10 mentality is: Make the NCAA Tournament in men's basketball. Pick a select other few sports to fund as a niche, and just PARTICIPATE in the rest that you need to be a conference member.

(12-29-2023 03:40 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(12-27-2023 10:37 PM)esayem Wrote:  Well, the conference was founded as a basketball conference, so that makes sense.

George Mason is a head scratcher.

It's harder to articulate it than just show you. Think about a "Best of the Rest" basketball conference. Who's MADE THE FINAL FOUR and would be available to you?

Bradley (1)
Dayton (1) - ATLANTIC 10
Drake (1)
Duquesne (1) - ATLANTIC 10
George Mason (1) - ATLANTIC 10
Gonzaga (2)
Holy Cross (1)
Indiana St (1)
Jacksonville (1)
LaSalle (2) - ATLANTIC 10
Loyola (2) - ATLANTIC 10
UMass (1) - FBS, but ATLANTIC 10
St. Bonaventure (1) - ATLANTIC 10
Saint Joseph's (1) - ATLANTIC 10
San Francisco (2)
Santa Clara (1)
Seattle (1)
VCU (1) - ATLANTIC 10

The A-10 wanted to monopolize that list of "Non-FBS, Non-Big East, Non-Ivy, Division I schools with Final Four banners."

They also had Temple (2), and Charlotte, and Butler... who've switched sides.
And most of us A-10 fans were saying "we should invite Wichita State" during the Gregg Marshall era.

George Mason hasn't sustained any success, hasn't made The Dance in 13 years, and only has SIX NCAA tournament tickets punched ALL TIME. They were a terrible addition.

I knew Loyola was coming even before they found their pulse. Bellarmine is on my radar nowadays, but is still years away. Both Holy Cross and Boston U seem to run Patriot League programs, but both have the resources to be a lot better. I feel like Siena has been on everybody's shortlist for eternity.

The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.


BTW, Bradley has two Final Fours. They were dynasty back in the day.

^

Mason, Davidson and Loyola were all terrible additions by the A-10.

Davidson has been consistently good.

1. Under their long time coach. He's now gone.

2. Mostly as a member of the SoCon and not terribly consistent. They didn't exactly dominate like Gonzaga in the WCC or even have run like Memphis in C-USA under Cal and when they made their run to the Elite 8, they had one of the best college players of all-time and a player that would go on to be a perennial NBA All-Star, 4-time NBA Champion, arguably the greatest shooter of all-time and possibly a top 10 NBA player of all-time. Even with Steph, they didn't make the NCAA Tournament the next year.

Davidson is a small private in a saturated sports market (and state for college sports) that will struggle to gain fans and program support (attendance, funding, NIL opportunities, etc...) it was short sighted to add them, just like many of their recent additions, just because they made a deep run or two in the NCAA Tournament.

I think part of the issue with the conglomerate best of the rest type conferences - which is kinda what the CAA is as well, at least on the football side - is it's quick to get bloated, lose your identity, and your top teams are looking for greener pastures.

Like the CAA ~15 years back was one of the top FCS conferences, and a respectable mid major basketball conference. The top football schools left for the FBS, the top basketball schools mostly left for the A10 (Former CAA members include East Carolina, Old Dominion, VCU, Richmond, Mason, JMU, Georgia State, soon to be Delaware). The conference adds new members when they leave, but they just kinda have to cross their fingers and hope that the new members get good at sports quickly.

For the A10, schools like VCU have obviously paid off pretty well, while other additions like Mason have not.

And at least from my POV in the CAA, the other issue with bloating is the conference starts to feel pretty disconnected, and there aren't really as many big rivalry games or exciting matchups.

Like I'm pretty indifferent towards playing a team like Monmouth, and I'm sure a school like URI doesn't have any big rivalry type sentiment to Loyola Chicago.

Furman leaving the SoCon would be a much bigger deal than a lot of people realize, if it ever happens. It's been their home for almost 100 years, and they're still in the middle of it geographically. It would take a lot for Furman to ever leave.

(12-30-2023 04:19 PM)Todor Wrote:  D2 Anderson University (South Carolina) defeated Furman, 6-6, today 79-74.

Time to end the Furman to the A-10 discussion.

Anderson to the A10.

(12-29-2023 04:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.

The Eastern 8 in 1979: everyone missed the potential of football.

Penn State (I-A)
Pitt (I-A)
West Virginia (I-A)
Rutgers (I-A)
UMass (I-A)
Villanova (I-A)
Duquesne (III)
George Washington (had dropped FB)

I'm biased as a Belmont fan, but it seems the A10 would benefit more from adding Belmont/Nashville than either Furman or William & Mary.

Having said that, I'm very pleased Belmont is a member of the Missouri Valley.

Damn, what team are you not a fan of?

(12-30-2023 10:16 PM)C2__ Wrote:  Damn, what team are you not a fan of?

I assume you are addressing me, C2.

Though I follow the sports teams of many schools (due to family reasons and my father, who is a monster college sports fan), I'm a major fan of only two: Vanderbilt and Memphis. Now I do strongly like Belmont men's basketball. I taught part-time at Belmont from 1994 to 1998 and got to know some BU professors. I started attending Belmont games in the early 1980s. My mother took piano lessons from the Belmont University predecessor institution in the mid-1940s, and my brother also taught at BU as an adjunct.

(12-30-2023 08:08 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-29-2023 04:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.

The Eastern 8 in 1979: everyone missed the potential of football.

Penn State (I-A)
Pitt (I-A)
West Virginia (I-A)
Rutgers (I-A)
UMass (I-A)
Villanova (I-A)
Duquesne (III)
George Washington (had dropped FB)

Imagine if that were also a football conference at the time...man.

Yeah we wouldn't be in the same league as all of them still, obviously. But where would we be now had we been there then? All but ones still in the A10 are in a P league of sorts.

(12-30-2023 08:08 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-29-2023 04:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.

The Eastern 8 in 1979: everyone missed the potential of football.

Penn State (I-A)
Pitt (I-A)
West Virginia (I-A)
Rutgers (I-A)
UMass (I-A)
Villanova (I-A)
Duquesne (III)
George Washington (had dropped FB)

Great point here. Syracuse turned down the Eastern 8 as well. I can't remember who was slotted in their place, maybe UMass.

(12-30-2023 11:31 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(12-30-2023 08:08 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-29-2023 04:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.

The Eastern 8 in 1979: everyone missed the potential of football.

Penn State (I-A)
Pitt (I-A)
West Virginia (I-A)
Rutgers (I-A)
UMass (I-A)
Villanova (I-A)
Duquesne (III)
George Washington (had dropped FB)

Imagine if that were also a football conference at the time...man.

Yeah we wouldn't be in the same league as all of them still, obviously. But where would we be now had we been there then? All but ones still in the A10 are in a P league of sorts.

I read that UConn and UMass were interested in upgrading to the equivalent of 1-A in the 70's. It took them both forever to get here. Meanwhile, Boston U was the opposite. They were a major program and de-emphasized in the mid 60's despite having the facilities and resources.

(12-29-2023 04:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  George Mason hasn't sustained any success, hasn't made The Dance in 13 years, and only has SIX NCAA tournament tickets punched ALL TIME. They were a terrible addition.

I knew Loyola was coming even before they found their pulse. Bellarmine is on my radar nowadays, but is still years away. Both Holy Cross and Boston U seem to run Patriot League programs, but both have the resources to be a lot better. I feel like Siena has been on everybody's shortlist for eternity.

The Eastern 8 was the original "basketball conference", followed by the Metro, Sun Belt, and Big East. Basketball has always been the driving decision maker, besides those few years where Linda Bruno dipped her foot into the gridiron waters. Of course, I say that in jest, but it is funny the A110 started football or rather took over the YanCon; that's back when W&M was a member and it was a nice league with the Boston schools on down to the Old Dominion.


BTW, Bradley has two Final Fours. They were dynasty back in the day.

Yeah, I generally agree with you, but it was really about maintaining a position that can't be usurped... we didn't want to be surpassed by the CAA, which had sent Mason and VCU to Final Fours. So we poached them. It was really more "protect ourselves from someone else having 'the next Gonzaga.'"

The A-10 doesn't "lack strength" it has too many similar programs and not enough consistency.

CONSISTENCY is why Davidson was a great add. I understand people questioning if they'd continue being what they were without McKillop. But their WORST season in 10 years in the A-10 has been 16-16.

They're 188-107 since joining the A-10. They're above the conference total win percentage every season.

As for Loyola, Loyola is an institutional fit and in Chicago. The AD at Loyola was an Assistant AD at Dayton (the flag bearer of the A-10) and then was AD at St. Bonaventure; where he got the Bonnies turned around and into the same class of programs as Davidson.

There was no leak about Loyola to the A-10 because it was known that Loyola was using the Dayton model and investing towards becoming an A-10 school; they knew if that if they NEEDED someone, Loyola would be there. In the fallout of Texas/Oklahoma, the mindset shifted from "why wait until we need someone?" and they were added.

There's no universe in which the CAA would pass the A-10 in basketball. Had Mason or VCU turned into Gonzaga (and VCU did to a lesser extent), they would have been snapped up by the A-10 and this sort of thing did happen in our timeline with VCU as mentioned and Butler, who only stayed for a season but was clearly added because of their national relevance.

This is why you wait to see if a program can be useful to you, rather than add potential deadweight because they had a deep NCAA Tournament run or two. The A-10 would be a better league if they didn't add so many schools on a snap reaction (Mason, Davidson, Fordham, Loyola, Saint Louis and Charlotte until they left). Sure, Davidson has had some good seasons lately but it remains to be seen if they can sustain it without McKillop at the helm. And even with him, they weren't exactly St. Mary's (most years). They didn't have a sustained 6 year run like Southern Illinois right after the turn of the century.

Even Richmond has been a decent team many years but is hardly a world beater.

(12-31-2023 03:56 PM)C2__ Wrote:  There's no universe in which the CAA would pass the A-10 in basketball. Had Mason or VCU turned into Gonzaga (and VCU did to a lesser extent), they would have been snapped up by the A-10 and this sort of thing did happen in our timeline with VCU as mentioned and Butler, who only stayed for a season but was clearly added because of their national relevance.

This is why you wait to see if a program can be useful to you, rather than add potential deadweight because they had a deep NCAA Tournament run or two. The A-10 would be a better league if they didn't add so many schools on a snap reaction (Mason, Davidson, Fordham, Loyola, Saint Louis and Charlotte until they left). Sure, Davidson has had some good seasons lately but it remains to be seen if they can sustain it without McKillop at the helm. And even with him, they weren't exactly St. Mary's (most years). They didn't have a sustained 6 year run like Southern Illinois right after the turn of the century.

Even Richmond has been a decent team many years but is hardly a world beater.

It seems like GMU's major problem was finding another coach that had Coach Larranaga's (sp?) consistency. GMU is located in the Beltway metro, so they do have that going for them.

As for Loyola, I actually like that add!! They seem like they really care about hoops and they're in Chicago, a hoops hotbed. Again, coaching is key.

I think Davidson will pay off down the line as well. Located in the Charlotte metro (hoops hotbed) with a consistent head coach.

No disagreement on Fordham, although I can understand why they were attractive originally.