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Cougars fire Holgoren
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(11-26-2023 02:46 PM)wrysal Wrote:  
(11-26-2023 12:29 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-26-2023 12:25 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  And Rice faithful are arguing about how long Bloomgren’s extension will be after finally getting to .500 in his 6th year with a cumulative record of 22-45, <33%.
Speaks volumes if Bloomgren is retained

I remember Rice supporters who were upset when Homer Rice (4-18), Watson Brown (4-18), and Jerry Berndt (6-27) left. By that reckoning, I suppose 22-45 deserves extending.

Well, one out of 3 for me. Nobody in the world was happier to see Homer go - I still remember the date of 4/16/78.
Watson was trending upward and ran a fun offense. Losing him didn't make any sense.
Berndt was a train wreck/program killer. Had to be one of the worst hires ever.
+1
11-26-2023 07:11 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
If it’s Fisher I hope his agent/attorney negotiates another huge buyout for him at UH with a 10 year contract.
11-26-2023 07:14 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #23
Cougars fire Holgoren
(11-26-2023 01:44 PM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  ESPN reporting Dana Dimel out at UTEP.


Again, Dimel with just one win against Rice in the last five years.

There’s a trend here.
11-26-2023 11:29 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(11-26-2023 05:28 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-26-2023 02:46 PM)wrysal Wrote:  
(11-26-2023 12:29 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-26-2023 12:25 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  And Rice faithful are arguing about how long Bloomgren’s extension will be after finally getting to .500 in his 6th year with a cumulative record of 22-45, <33%.
Speaks volumes if Bloomgren is retained

I remember Rice supporters who were upset when Homer Rice (4-18), Watson Brown (4-18), and Jerry Berndt (6-27) left. By that reckoning, I suppose 22-45 deserves extending.

Well, one out of 3 for me. Nobody in the world was happier to see Homer go - I still remember the date of 4/16/78.
Watson was trending upward and ran a fun offense. Losing him didn't make any sense.
Berndt was a train wreck/program killer. Had to be one of the worst hires ever.

+1

Guess this makes it a +3 from me.

Watson, like other coaches started with where he was best at/most comfortable with. I have no doubt that he would have continued to focus on offense, while increasing his defensive efforts.

You also have to remember that this was in the SWC... We weren't ever going to be the best defense in the SWC... but having an exciting offense put butts (especially students) in the seats and gave you a punchers chance with a credible defense.
11-27-2023 10:19 AM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
To me had both Watson and Fred stayed not only would Rice have been better but also both their later careers.
11-27-2023 10:56 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(11-27-2023 10:56 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  To me had both Watson and Fred stayed not only would Rice have been better but also both their later careers.

Agreed. The only thing that kept losing Fred from being a total disaster was hiring Hat. I recall vividly saying that at the time to Bobby... and though he couldn't/didn't say anything to me in response... he obviously agreed.
11-27-2023 01:42 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(11-27-2023 10:56 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  To me had both Watson and Fred stayed not only would Rice have been better but also both their later careers.

+1
11-27-2023 02:25 PM
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texowl2 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
Article yesterday in the Daily Cougar, fka the Houston Comical, re the UH President revealed when she knew that Dana wasn't go to work out. I didn't bother to read such propaganda as the truth was, as we all well know, "when she got a phone call from Tillman".....
12-08-2023 11:17 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #29
RE: Cougars fire Holgorsen
(11-27-2023 10:56 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  To me had both Watson and Fred stayed not only would Rice have been better but also both their later careers.

At least with regard to Fred, I definitely agree. He had a good first year at Duke (8-4 and in a bowl) but was 9-35 for the rest of his time there. Later he was 17-27 in four years at Lenoir Rhyne. Dinger left for the NFL in 1995, and Fred never had as much success without him as he did with him.

Watson is a bit of a mixed bag to me. I really liked Watson, and loved his offense, He probably came closer to the Hawaii mix of triple option and run-n-shoot that I like than has any other Rice coach. He, along with Jerry Berndt and Homer Rice, were three offensive geniuses who couldn't spell d-e-f-e-n-s-e, and among the three of them managed a combined 14-63 at Rice. Interestingly, his defensive staff at Rice included Mike Nolan, who ultimately became an NFL DC and head coach, so he had defensive knowledge on his staff.

To Hambone, no, Rice was not going to lead the SWC in defense, definitely not as long as TexasU and aTm and Arkansas played the kind of defense that they did. But you can't be godawful defensively, either, as Rice's and Brown's and Berndt's teams were. Berndt actually had a team that led the SWC in total offense but didn't win a conference game. The big difference that Fred made vis a vis his predecessors is that Rice started playing defense.

I don't know if Watson's teams would ever have started playing defense, But Fred's did, and that is how I would distinguish the two.
12-09-2023 03:35 AM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-09-2023 03:35 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-27-2023 10:56 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  To me had both Watson and Fred stayed not only would Rice have been better but also both their later careers.

At least with regard to Fred, I definitely agree. He had a good first year at Duke (8-4 and in a bowl) but was 9-35 for the rest of his time there. Later he was 17-27 in four years at Lenoir Rhyne. Dinger left for the NFL in 1995, and Fred never had as much success without him as he did with him.

Watson is a bit of a mixed bag to me. I really liked Watson, and loved his offense, He probably came closer to the Hawaii mix of triple option and run-n-shoot that I like than has any other Rice coach. He, along with Jerry Berndt and Homer Rice, were three offensive geniuses who couldn't spell d-e-f-e-n-s-e, and among the three of them managed a combined 14-63 at Rice. Interestingly, his defensive staff at Rice included Mike Nolan, who ultimately became an NFL DC and head coach, so he had defensive knowledge on his staff.

To Hambone, no, Rice was not going to lead the SWC in defense, definitely not as long as TexasU and aTm and Arkansas played the kind of defense that they did. But you can't be godawful defensively, either, as Rice's and Brown's and Berndt's teams were. Berndt actually had a team that led the SWC in total offense but didn't win a conference game. The big difference that Fred made vis a vis his predecessors is that Rice started playing defense.

I don't know if Watson's teams would ever have started playing defense, But Fred's did, and that is how I would distinguish the two.

Berndt's pattern was to spend 3 quarters establishing the running game (with little success), then opening things up in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach. Most of those yards were in "garbage time". The sad thing is that he kept trying the same thing, game after game.
12-09-2023 11:05 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #31
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-09-2023 11:05 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Berndt's pattern was to spend 3 quarters establishing the running game (with little success), then opening things up in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach. Most of those yards were in "garbage time". The sad thing is that he kept trying the same thing, game after game.

I always thought Berndt's problem, at least after his first year, was that his defense couldn't stop anybody, so he had to score on every possession to stay in the game. By the half the game was out of reach and he was playing catch-up.

Interesting thing about Berndt's staff. His first year, his OC was Don Dobes and his DC was Milan Vooletich. I thought Vooletich was the best DC at Rice since Charlie Bailey, and that team played better defense than any of Homer Rice's or Watson Brown's teams had played. Then Vooletich left to go to Annapolis when his good friend Elliot Uzelac got the HC job there. That's where it gets kind of strange. Dobes came from Penn with Berndt and had always coached on the defensive side of the ball, except his last year at Penn when he coached tight ends and o-line. As numerical replacement for Vooletich, Berndt brought in Ron Chismar, who had been HC at Wichita State (they dropped football after 1986) and had an offensive background, including OC for Darryl Rogers at Arizona State (ranking as high as #6 in the nation in 1982). Seems to me it would have made sense to move Dobes to DC and bring in Chismar as OC. But Berndt kept Dobes on the offensive side and made Chismar DC. So he ended up with a guy whose background was defense as OC and a guy whose background was offense as DC. I thought Dobes was a good OC, but Chismar was lost at sea trying to run a defense. Berndt did not have any Texans on his staff and did not recruit well, so there was a talent gap (which Fred started closing from day one), but at least things might have been better if he had an offensive guy running his offense and a defensive guy running his defense.

Dobes, by the way, went to Temple with Berndt as OC for four years, but has gone back to the defensive side after that. He is currently in his 14th year as DC at Dartmouth after 16 as DC at Princeton.

I guess my primary takeaway from the Rice/Brown/Berndt years was that Rice has tried multiple offensive geniuses who didn't know how to spell d-e-f-e-n-s-e, and the results have been uniformly horrible. Things got immediately better when Fred started recruiting Texas and playing defense.
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2023 10:43 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-10-2023 09:45 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-10-2023 09:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-09-2023 11:05 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Berndt's pattern was to spend 3 quarters establishing the running game (with little success), then opening things up in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach. Most of those yards were in "garbage time". The sad thing is that he kept trying the same thing, game after game.

I always thought Berndt's problem, at least after his first year, was that his defense couldn't stop anybody, so he had to score on every possession to stay in the game. By the half the game was out of reach and he was playing catch-up.

Interesting thing about Berndt's staff. His first year, his OC was Don Dobes and his DC was Milan Vooletich. I thought Vooletich was the best DC at Rice since Charlie Bailey, and that team played better defense than any of Homer Rice's or Watson Brown's teams had played. Then Vooletich left to go to Annapolis when his good friend Elliot Uzelac got the HC job there. That's where it gets kind of strange. Dobes came from Penn with Berndt and had always coached on the defensive side of the ball, except his last year at Penn when he coached tight ends and o-line. As numerical replacement for Vooletich, Berndt brought in Ron Chismar, who had been HC at Wichita State (they dropped football after 1986) and had an offensive background, including OC for Darryl Rogers at Arizona State (ranking as high as #6 in the nation in 1982). Seems to me it would have made sense to move Dobes to DC and bring in Chismar as OC. But Berndt kept Dobes on the offensive side and made Chismar DC. So he ended up with a guy whose background was defense as OC and a guy whose background was offense as DC. I thought Dobes was a good OC, but Chismar was lost at sea trying to run a defense. Berndt did not have any Texans on his staff and did not recruit well, so there was a talent gap (which Fred started closing from day one), but at least things might have been better if he had an offensive guy running his offense and a defensive guy running his defense.

Dobes, by the way, went to Temple with Berndt as OC for four years, but has gone back to the defensive side after that. He is currently in his 14th year as DC at Dartmouth after 16 as DC at Princeton.

I guess my primary takeaway from the Rice/Brown/Berndt years was that Rice has tried multiple offensive geniuses who didn't know how to spell d-e-f-e-n-s-e, and the results have been uniformly horrible. Things got immediately better when Fred started recruiting Texas and playing defense.

Berndt was about as far from an offensive genius as any coach I've ever been around. Either you never came to the Quarterback Club meetings in that era (in which he would explain his "philosophy"), or you did attend and have forgotten what he clearly spelled out - repeatedly.
12-11-2023 03:37 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #33
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-11-2023 03:37 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Berndt was about as far from an offensive genius as any coach I've ever been around. Either you never came to the Quarterback Club meetings in that era (in which he would explain his "philosophy"), or you did attend and have forgotten what he clearly spelled out - repeatedly.

Yes, I did attend QB Club regularly in those days and yes I do recall his philosophy. I realize that Berndt did not throw the ball enough to suit you, but he was a successful coach on the offensive side of the ball pretty much throughout his career.

Berndt's problems at Rice were defense and lack of Texas recruiting connections--both of which Fred promptly fixed. I remember an early meeting of Fred with alumni--may have been when he was introduced or an early QB Club meeting. Fred was asked by someone--may have been you--about plans to open up the offense, and he replied that Rice's problems were on defense, not offense.
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2023 12:13 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-11-2023 09:00 AM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
Defense has always been a problem, no matter who the coach has been.

Beginning with 1986 (Berndt's first season), here are the years when Rice's total offense was greater than the total defense:

Hatfield
1994
1997
2004

Bailiff
2008
2012
2013
2014

Bloomgren
2023

No Berndt, no Goldsmith (defensive coach) and no Toad.

Only 8 times in a span of 38 seasons has Rice's offense outgained the defense.
12-11-2023 01:13 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-11-2023 01:13 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Defense has always been a problem, no matter who the coach has been.

Beginning with 1986 (Berndt's first season), here are the years when Rice's total offense was greater than the total defense:

Hatfield
1994
1997
2004

Bailiff
2008
2012
2013
2014

Bloomgren
2023

No Berndt, no Goldsmith (defensive coach) and no Toad.

Only 8 times in a span of 38 seasons has Rice's offense outgained the defense.

This is absolutely notable, but I'd also add that an obvious part of most Rice coach's program has been to dominate TOP on offense, which also sometimes meant 'bend don't break' or 'everything in front of us' on defense. Giving up lots of yards, but hopefully fewer points.

We also often had some games where we were just man-handled... as in the Liberty Bowl where we had <150 yards total offense and gave up over 500.... and although this was Bailiff, we seem to have one of these most every year. It's going to be tough (though Bailiff did it) to have offense > defense unless (like 2013) you're otherwise VERY good on offense.

Notably, we outgained A&M and DOMINATED them in TOP in that same year.... but still lost by 3 scores.
12-11-2023 02:20 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #36
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
(12-11-2023 01:13 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Defense has always been a problem, no matter who the coach has been.
Only 8 times in a span of 38 seasons has Rice's offense outgained the defense.

But that's a measure of offense AND defense, not just defense. Lookong at the 8 years where the offense outgained the defense, the cumulative record for those years was 56-42, compared with an overall record since 1984 of 174-285-2, so those were clearly among the best Rice teams, period, of that era.

Looking at defense alone, the averge defensive yield in yards/game, by head coach, were:

Brown 430
Berndt 430
Goldsmith 400
Hatfield 382
Graham 415
Bailiff 445
Bloomgren 395

The best defensive stretch would be 1993 (Fred's last year) through 2002 (Hatfield's 9th) where the average yield was 372 yards/game, with the yield under 400 for 9 of the 10 years. Hatfield's first 9 teams gave up 371 yards/game, while his last 3 gave up 417 yards/game. To give a frame of reference, recognizing that the comparison is somewhat skewed by recent offensive growth, in 2023 that would be the difference between ranking 56th and 108th in team total defense. I've said before that Hatfield's demise was not so much because his offense was outmoded as because his teams quit playing defense; in the game that marked the beginning of the end for Hat, his offense scored 63 but his defense gave up 70. Goldsmith, Hatfield (first few years obviously with Goldsmith's defensive recruits), and Bloomgren improved defensive yields compared to their predecessors. Bailiff had the worst two individual years (2007 with 511 and 2016 with 505), and worst overall, perhaps in no small part because offensive numbers have been getting larger overall. Bailiff employed a very conservative game strategy that requires strong defense and kicking game to work, but his defenses and special teams were typically godawful. I never understood that disconnect. Nick Saban and Kirby Smart can be conservative; David Bailiff could not. He could win 10 games if he had a strong QB (Clement, McHargue) or lose 10 games if he ddn't. With respect to differences in level of competition, Brown, Berndt, Goldsmith, and part of Hatfield were against the SWC, most of Hatfield against the WAC with one year versus CUSA, Graham and Bailiff against CUSA, and Bloomgren against mostly CUSA with one year against the American.

The dilemma faced by any coach at Rice is limited numbers of talent, and while you can move the ball and score on offense with scheme and execution (the RUOwls approach), it takes dudes with talent to play defense. Do you figure that you don't have enough athletes on your roster to play good defense in any event, so you'll put what talent you have on offense and simply try to outscore people, or do you put enough on defense that you're competitive on that side of the ball, and try to improvise and execute on offense? Rice has had a bunch of coaches--Rice, Brown, Berndt--try the former and win fewer than 20% of their games. Goldsmith probably put more talent on defense than any other Rice coach--Larry Izzo, N.D. Kalu, Nathan Bennett, O.J. Brigance (started under Berndt), Tony Barker, Joe Davis, Matt Sign--but always kept a QB--Hollas, LaRocca, Emanuel--on offense. You simply cannot afford to be as bad defensively as Brown's and particularly Berndt's teams were. When you simply can't stop the other team at all, then you have to score on every possession to win, and that's incredibly difficult.

Ideally, you'd like for your defense to stop the other team on half of its possessions, The opponent's mistakes (penalties, missed blocks, etc.) will stop them about 1/4 of the time. Off an average of 14 possessions per game, that means they score 3-1/2 times. Assuming a mix of TDs and FGs, that leaves them scoring about 20-24 points per game. Holding opponents to 20 points is a pretty good baseline measure of defensive performance. Offensively, the Bill Walsh/Lou Holtz targets of 25 first downs, 30 points, and 35 minutes possession time (note that in this model it is TOP that enables possession time, not simply running the play clock down), mean that you have done well on that side of the ball. Do both and you will win.

The military academies deal with the numbers issue by running an offense based on athleticism and execution rather than size and specialized talent. Anybody they recruit to run the triple option can probably play somewhere on defense, and vice versa, which increases their effective numbers quite a bit. To go back in Rice history, I always liked the Bill Peterson concept of throw the ball on offense and play sound defense. I'm not sure Rice has enough athletes to have enough drop-back passing game specialists to make that work. I'm now kind of inclined toward mixing option running with the kind of passing game that a running QB can execute, in order to keep the personnel interchangeability with defense. As a couple of examples, Andre Ware was an option QB at Dickinson that Yeoman recruited to run the veer, but he found a home in the run-n-shoot, and Bert Emanuel was such a run threat that any time he got outside, the defense had to give up its shape to pursue, and that left easy passes all over the place. Frank Broyles liked to say, "Any time the quarterback breaks contain, there is a touchdown available somewhere on the field." That's a key to the run-n-shoot, and it was a key to what Dinger was able to do with Bert.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2023 10:35 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-11-2023 07:26 PM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Cougars fire Holgoren
Every facet of the game has to click in order for Rice to win. One side of the ball depends directly on the success of the other. Every variable must mesh cohesively as a solid unit. We must play error-free, perfect football. Others get away with it and still win, but that will never be the case at Rice. Every little detail is a gigantic detail. We need coaches who can recruit, utilize schemes that match our talent, and who instill extreme discipline on both sides of the ball. There are no shortcuts or easy ways out. It's very hard at Rice, and always will be.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2023 02:12 PM by Ourland.)
12-13-2023 02:11 PM
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