So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

But on top of that is the hidden debt. “Not included in the official debt are totals from “off-balance sheet liabilities.” This means the amount of debt from government-funded programs, such as Medicaid and federal employee pension programs, is not included when the debt is tallied.”

Using this approach, analysts reach the $34 trillion figure. But again, this is only a small portion of the actual national debt. Amazingly, this is the same accounting method Enron Corporation used to conceal massive debt and appear financially stable before its sudden collapse!

“Consider. Since the inception of these programs, Social Security has paid out $17.5 trillion and Medicare has shelled out $89.3 trillion more than revenue collected from taxpayers. Together, these two programs add a total of $106.8 trillion to the published national debt.” But that figure is from around 2009.

More about the hidden debt can be found here.
https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/10102...20tallied.

Local municipality debt is expected to hit 4 trillion in the next couple of years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/2464...by%202026.

Consumer debt is another 15 trillion. Also seldom widely reported.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/ave....3%2C4%2C5

So like Enron, we are merely using accounting tricks to make it appear this good. 34 trillion in federal debt is the figure AFTER the tricky book keeping and spin.

And I have no doubt many of the other figures are equally sneaky.

We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

it's always been a simple numbers generational game in nuts zongo's mind ... '30 was my target date for full collapse back in the early '80s ... we're almost there...

I'll sum it up in one word .... #precipice

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

Native Georgian, I’m mainly stating our debt is not from overly generous social policies. We aren’t borrowing to make sure we have the best of everything for our citizens. It’s not for world leading education, healthcare, childcare, vacation time etc. We arent borrowing to make sure our infrastructure is state of the art. We aren’t even borrowing to make sure it’s adequate in most cases. Even those things would silly to borrow so much for in some ways. But we have the debt and don’t even have the goodies.

And true, perhaps Canadians or Europeans don’t have quite the “standard of living” we have, but there is a pretty good chance the way they live is a lot more sustainable than ours, and a lot closer to what the countries actually produce and can afford.

That leads back to my “illusion of prosperity” comment.

(10-08-2023 09:53 AM)Todor Wrote:  Native Georgian, I’m mainly stating our debt is not from overly generous social policies. We aren’t borrowing to make sure we have the best of everything for our citizens. It’s not for world leading education, healthcare, childcare, vacation time etc. We arent borrowing to make sure our infrastructure is state of the art. We aren’t even borrowing to make sure it’s adequate in most cases. Even those things would silly to borrow so much for in some ways. But we have the debt and don’t even have the goodies.

And true, perhaps Canadians or Europeans don’t have quite the “standard of living” we have, but there is a pretty good chance the way they live is a lot more sustainable than ours, and a lot closer to what the countries actually produce and can afford.

That leads back to my “illusion of prosperity” comment.

Sustainable is a big question mark. Given most European nations are on the verge of a population collapse due to low birth rates and aging population, their ability to sustain their overpromised benefits will be significantly strained and their debts will explode. There's just not going to be enough workers to pay for their aging population.

It's already started. Italy and Russia have already peaked and their populations will dropped quickly over the next 20 years. The same is already happening in China, SKoria, Japan.

The US, primarily due to immigration will not experience the same level of collapse as those other areas because our population is still growing, albeit slower than In the past.

I'm not saying our debt isn't an issue. It is...but the collapse of Europe and East Asia is the larger issue we will face.

government accounting is about the most fake thing out there

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

But on top of that is the hidden debt. “Not included in the official debt are totals from “off-balance sheet liabilities.” This means the amount of debt from government-funded programs, such as Medicaid and federal employee pension programs, is not included when the debt is tallied.”

Using this approach, analysts reach the $34 trillion figure. But again, this is only a small portion of the actual national debt. Amazingly, this is the same accounting method Enron Corporation used to conceal massive debt and appear financially stable before its sudden collapse!

“Consider. Since the inception of these programs, Social Security has paid out $17.5 trillion and Medicare has shelled out $89.3 trillion more than revenue collected from taxpayers. Together, these two programs add a total of $106.8 trillion to the published national debt.” But that figure is from around 2009.

More about the hidden debt can be found here.
https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/10102...20tallied.

Local municipality debt is expected to hit 4 trillion in the next couple of years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/2464...by%202026.

Consumer debt is another 15 trillion. Also seldom widely reported.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/ave....3%2C4%2C5

So like Enron, we are merely using accounting tricks to make it appear this good. 34 trillion in federal debt is the figure AFTER the tricky book keeping and spin.

And I have no doubt many of the other figures are equally sneaky.

We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

Pretty stupid to make up conspiracy theories about it being much higher.

34 trillion is plenty big enough and the politicians really don't care.

All the world is an accounting trick based on faith in the system. Nothing has real value except final manufactured products and raw materials, the actual things people need for survival.

Let’s say I form the country of Banker and issue a currency and debt backed by gold. Most people, if the gold was confirmed, would feel pretty good that my currency had value, so you could use it to buy stuff. That goes on for decades and people forget about the gold, they are just used to using Banker Bucks and everyone is used to taking them. That’s the US in a nutshell.

The real problem is that gold really has nothing but faith based value either. You can’t eat is, wear it or sleep under it for protection. It’s only valuable because people thousands of years ago liked it because it was shiny and it wasn’t easy to find.

Every balance sheet everywhere on the planet is faith based. What happens to Japan’s balance sheet if the US tanks? Or any other of 100 countries? Which is really more valuable, an ounce of gold or a good axe? One can help you survive, one can’t. If it is the axe, is gold really worth $2,000 an ounce?

Just stuff I think about too much.

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

(10-08-2023 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

and what 'morals' we once had, they have not ... time is their best friend moving forward...

like too many other 'empires', we're just giving it away at lightning pace...

(10-08-2023 03:26 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

and what 'morals' we once had, they have not ... time is their best friend moving forward...

like too many other 'empires', we're just giving it away at lightning pace...

Narcissistic, Godless, progressive elites cannot conceive of a world in which one of our enemies kills them and takes all they have in addition to their lives. They live in a fantasy bubble that they are out of bounds when it comes to hostility. China will be no respecter of personage or personality. They practice the wholesale elimination of Non Chinese everywhere they assume absolute control.

It's the same situation illustrated in Braveheart. The Nobles, they'll do a deal with the enemy. Well, they've never had an enemy who didn't care how rich they are or about their privileged lineage.

And Stink, no morality is easier to deal with than selective morality. Here you can't trust the government and don't know how to effect change because you are dealing with people who have selective morality. They claim one moral and abandon another as long as it is in self interest. With the amoral you know where they stand and what to expect and can adapt your strategies accordingly. So in that regard the Chinese are consistent. Our bureaucrats are not.

(10-08-2023 12:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

But on top of that is the hidden debt. “Not included in the official debt are totals from “off-balance sheet liabilities.” This means the amount of debt from government-funded programs, such as Medicaid and federal employee pension programs, is not included when the debt is tallied.”

Using this approach, analysts reach the $34 trillion figure. But again, this is only a small portion of the actual national debt. Amazingly, this is the same accounting method Enron Corporation used to conceal massive debt and appear financially stable before its sudden collapse!

“Consider. Since the inception of these programs, Social Security has paid out $17.5 trillion and Medicare has shelled out $89.3 trillion more than revenue collected from taxpayers. Together, these two programs add a total of $106.8 trillion to the published national debt.” But that figure is from around 2009.

More about the hidden debt can be found here.
https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/10102...20tallied.

Local municipality debt is expected to hit 4 trillion in the next couple of years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/2464...by%202026.

Consumer debt is another 15 trillion. Also seldom widely reported.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/debt/ave....3%2C4%2C5

So like Enron, we are merely using accounting tricks to make it appear this good. 34 trillion in federal debt is the figure AFTER the tricky book keeping and spin.

And I have no doubt many of the other figures are equally sneaky.

We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

Pretty stupid to make up conspiracy theories about it being much higher.

34 trillion is plenty big enough and the politicians really don't care.

That’s exactly what Enron told their investors.

Pretty stupid to take any figure they give you as accurate.

If virtually everything else they say is eventually proven to be a lie, it’s a safe bet to figure the debt figure is too.

Doesn’t matter what the figure is. We are living well, well, well beyond our means and our supposed prosperity is a false front. We actually don’t have what we appear to have.

I thought my neighbors were rich for years. They had all the trappings. Until their cars got repossessed, their furniture got taken back by a rent to own company, and they came to my house to use my phone because they didn’t have money to minutes on their new Tracfone IPhones.

And I slammed the door in the smug faces.

(10-08-2023 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

Our state department lived in the western paradigm and didn't understand that more prosperity doesn't mean less war and more freedom in all cultures. They thought China would be our friend like Germany and Japan became.

(10-08-2023 03:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 03:26 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 08:43 AM)Todor Wrote:  So the federal debt is the most talked about. It’s reported amount is around 34 trillion. I doubt that is the real figure, because most of what we hear are lies. I would not be surprised if the real number is significantly higher.

My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

Quote:We say no to health care for all, no to first world infrastructure, no to free universities, no to so many other things that most first world citizens have long taken for granted.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

Quote:I think the end is closer than even the pessimists think. Yet we keep spending. And borrowing more.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

and what 'morals' we once had, they have not ... time is their best friend moving forward...

like too many other 'empires', we're just giving it away at lightning pace...

Narcissistic, Godless, progressive elites cannot conceive of a world in which one of our enemies kills them and takes all they have in addition to their lives. They live in a fantasy bubble that they are out of bounds when it comes to hostility. China will be no respecter of personage or personality. They practice the wholesale elimination of Non Chinese everywhere they assume absolute control.

It's the same situation illustrated in Braveheart. The Nobles, they'll do a deal with the enemy. Well, they've never had an enemy who didn't care how rich they are or about their privileged lineage.

And Stink, no morality is easier to deal with than selective morality. Here you can't trust the government and don't know how to effect change because you are dealing with people who have selective morality. They claim one moral and abandon another as long as it is in self interest. With the amoral you know where they stand and what to expect and can adapt your strategies accordingly. So in that regard the Chinese are consistent. Our bureaucrats are not.

Its not just non-Chinese.

I'm reminded of something our guide in China said on a trip about 2005. She said people just gawk at accidents. They don't care about the victims. "There are too many of us anyway."

(10-08-2023 08:09 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 03:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 03:26 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-08-2023 09:21 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  My father (RIP) was convinced that Eisenhower’s Administration was the last to publish a budget using honest, real-world statistics. LBJ couldn’t have his war and Great Society without resorting to fake #s, and it’s just gotten progressively worse since then.

I’m not sure which countries you have in mind when you make that comparison. But I’ve been to Canada many times over the years and their standard of living is not visibly better than America’s. Seems a bit worse, if anything. But I’ll admit they are much stricter than we are about immigration and so they are not dealing (to the same degree) with all the problems of open-borders.

There is no question that there will be a reckoning. Don’t know exactly when it will begin or exactly what will trigger it, but it’s headed our way. When it happens there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, to coin a phrase. Selfishly I hope I’m no longer around when it happens.

It happens at Waterloo. Wellington didn't win the war. He just illustrated to the Swiss why they didn't have to be afraid "not to lend" more to Napoleon. Nobody was ever going to call the U.S. debt to question when we carried the biggest stick and would use it. We have allowed the rise of China as a global option so now those who know we are massively over leveraged in the maintenance of our projected power, and who sense the loss of will within us, fear China a bit more, and see no reason to fear their leveraged debt more than ours, in fact they fear their leveraged debt less, though it too is a massive Ponzi scheme enforced by projected power within their region. But that's precisely the issue. China is perceived as a regional Bully. We are perceived as a global one. China however needs to be illustrated as the global threat they are, maybe not quite yet militarily, but absolutely when it comes to trade influence and a growing presence.

and what 'morals' we once had, they have not ... time is their best friend moving forward...

like too many other 'empires', we're just giving it away at lightning pace...

Narcissistic, Godless, progressive elites cannot conceive of a world in which one of our enemies kills them and takes all they have in addition to their lives. They live in a fantasy bubble that they are out of bounds when it comes to hostility. China will be no respecter of personage or personality. They practice the wholesale elimination of Non Chinese everywhere they assume absolute control.

It's the same situation illustrated in Braveheart. The Nobles, they'll do a deal with the enemy. Well, they've never had an enemy who didn't care how rich they are or about their privileged lineage.

And Stink, no morality is easier to deal with than selective morality. Here you can't trust the government and don't know how to effect change because you are dealing with people who have selective morality. They claim one moral and abandon another as long as it is in self interest. With the amoral you know where they stand and what to expect and can adapt your strategies accordingly. So in that regard the Chinese are consistent. Our bureaucrats are not.

Its not just non-Chinese.

I'm reminded of something our guide in China said on a trip about 2005. She said people just gawk at accidents. They don't care about the victims. "There are too many of us anyway."

And that is why it is so important to be a Party member. Anything to say you belong more than another.

Whenever you want to cut something, you get accused of being mean