(09-29-2023 03:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 02:20 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The committee “values” CCG wins. Could see them 12-0 and unranked until they get that 13th win.

‘07 Hawaii even made the Top 10 while undefeated.

The 2007 WAC might not have been a world beater but it was held in much higher regard than present CUSA. That's not a knock, hopefully the FCS call ups establish themselves over time as FBS programs, but it will take time.

Hawaii also had a win over a ranked Boise and and BCS autobid conference team, albeit not a very good one (4-9 Washington.)

Liberty just doesn't have the schedule IMO. I think even a 3 loss MW/AAC/SBC champ would get in over a 13-0 Liberty. If they keep winning they'll eventually be ranked by AP/Coaches but I doubt they'll even be ranked by the CFP if undefeated.

Those FCS callups were all average in FCS, a good year now and than, most years, average. You expect them to improve in FBS?

(10-03-2023 09:07 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 03:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 02:20 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The committee “values” CCG wins. Could see them 12-0 and unranked until they get that 13th win.

‘07 Hawaii even made the Top 10 while undefeated.

The 2007 WAC might not have been a world beater but it was held in much higher regard than present CUSA. That's not a knock, hopefully the FCS call ups establish themselves over time as FBS programs, but it will take time.

Hawaii also had a win over a ranked Boise and and BCS autobid conference team, albeit not a very good one (4-9 Washington.)

Liberty just doesn't have the schedule IMO. I think even a 3 loss MW/AAC/SBC champ would get in over a 13-0 Liberty. If they keep winning they'll eventually be ranked by AP/Coaches but I doubt they'll even be ranked by the CFP if undefeated.

Those FCS callups were all average in FCS, a good year now and than, most years, average. You expect them to improve in FBS?

One thing is for sure, both programs were as successful, if not more, during their runs at the FCS level than the other dakota school has been.

Since South Dakota State moved up in ‘04

SDSU
143-78 (.647)
14 playoff wins
1* title/2 appearances

SHSU
156-62 (.715)
23 playoff wins
1 title/3 appearances

JSU
149-66 (.693)
7 playoff wins
0 titles/1 appearance

*Does SDSU’s chip last year even count in an FCS with 2/3 (Sam/JMU) of the subdivisions top playoff wins leaders moving up?

Would you say the Jackrabbits have been an average, or a below average program, since going FCS in 2004?

I’d respect the pro FCS narrative-pushing if it wasn’t so blatantly dumb… people here pay attention ya know.

Hate to break it to both of you SDSU, JMU, SHSU nor JSU were average FCS programs. All were near the top of the sub division. Only JSU doesnt have a ring did have a runners up.

(10-03-2023 12:30 PM)EatEmUp11 Wrote:  

(10-03-2023 09:07 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 03:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 02:20 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The committee “values” CCG wins. Could see them 12-0 and unranked until they get that 13th win.

‘07 Hawaii even made the Top 10 while undefeated.

The 2007 WAC might not have been a world beater but it was held in much higher regard than present CUSA. That's not a knock, hopefully the FCS call ups establish themselves over time as FBS programs, but it will take time.

Hawaii also had a win over a ranked Boise and and BCS autobid conference team, albeit not a very good one (4-9 Washington.)

Liberty just doesn't have the schedule IMO. I think even a 3 loss MW/AAC/SBC champ would get in over a 13-0 Liberty. If they keep winning they'll eventually be ranked by AP/Coaches but I doubt they'll even be ranked by the CFP if undefeated.

Those FCS callups were all average in FCS, a good year now and than, most years, average. You expect them to improve in FBS?

One thing is for sure, both programs were as successful, if not more, during their runs at the FCS level than the other dakota school has been.

Since South Dakota State moved up in ‘04

SDSU
143-78 (.647)
14 playoff wins
1* title/2 appearances

SHSU
156-62 (.715)
23 playoff wins
1 title/3 appearances

JSU
149-66 (.693)
7 playoff wins
0 titles/1 appearance

*Does SDSU’s chip last year even count in an FCS with 2/3 (Sam/JMU) of the subdivisions top playoff wins leaders moving up?

Would you say the Jackrabbits have been an average, or a below average program, since going FCS in 2004?

I’d respect the pro FCS narrative-pushing if it wasn’t so blatantly dumb… people here pay attention ya know.

JMU yes, SAM, no. Playing a weak schedule in a weak league (So Con) will pad a schools record. The issue with FCS has always been, 3 strong leagues, the remaining are weak. The loss of JMU, GSU, App State hurt the division, Sam? Not so much. JSU, not at all.

(10-04-2023 09:22 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(10-03-2023 12:30 PM)EatEmUp11 Wrote:  

(10-03-2023 09:07 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 03:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 02:20 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The committee “values” CCG wins. Could see them 12-0 and unranked until they get that 13th win.

‘07 Hawaii even made the Top 10 while undefeated.

The 2007 WAC might not have been a world beater but it was held in much higher regard than present CUSA. That's not a knock, hopefully the FCS call ups establish themselves over time as FBS programs, but it will take time.

Hawaii also had a win over a ranked Boise and and BCS autobid conference team, albeit not a very good one (4-9 Washington.)

Liberty just doesn't have the schedule IMO. I think even a 3 loss MW/AAC/SBC champ would get in over a 13-0 Liberty. If they keep winning they'll eventually be ranked by AP/Coaches but I doubt they'll even be ranked by the CFP if undefeated.

Those FCS callups were all average in FCS, a good year now and than, most years, average. You expect them to improve in FBS?

One thing is for sure, both programs were as successful, if not more, during their runs at the FCS level than the other dakota school has been.

Since South Dakota State moved up in ‘04

SDSU
143-78 (.647)
14 playoff wins
1* title/2 appearances

SHSU
156-62 (.715)
23 playoff wins
1 title/3 appearances

JSU
149-66 (.693)
7 playoff wins
0 titles/1 appearance

*Does SDSU’s chip last year even count in an FCS with 2/3 (Sam/JMU) of the subdivisions top playoff wins leaders moving up?

Would you say the Jackrabbits have been an average, or a below average program, since going FCS in 2004?

I’d respect the pro FCS narrative-pushing if it wasn’t so blatantly dumb… people here pay attention ya know.

JMU yes, SAM, no. Playing a weak schedule in a weak league (So Con) will pad a schools record. The issue with FCS has always been, 3 strong leagues, the remaining are weak. The loss of JMU, GSU, App State hurt the division, Sam? Not so much. JSU, not at all.

You don’t even know what conference Sam played in ya dork.

That hasn’t “always been an issue”, it’s been a trend over the past ten years or so. The power of conferences fluctuates. The GatewayValley wasn’t even close to the best FCS league 15+ years ago, the SoCon or A10 was. Look where they’re at now.

Sam might’ve played in a weaker conference. But they had more playoff wins than anyone but NDSU from 2010 on. They had winning records against each of the Big 3 Conf. during that span. That’s the great thing about 1-AA; teams from poor conferences always get a chance to prove it on the field, and a 25-11 playoff record would indicate Sam did just that during their time in the subdivision.

You act as one of the biggest proponents of FCS ball on this site, and yet you know nothing about it.

(10-04-2023 09:22 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(10-03-2023 12:30 PM)EatEmUp11 Wrote:  

(10-03-2023 09:07 AM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 03:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 02:20 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The committee “values” CCG wins. Could see them 12-0 and unranked until they get that 13th win.

‘07 Hawaii even made the Top 10 while undefeated.

The 2007 WAC might not have been a world beater but it was held in much higher regard than present CUSA. That's not a knock, hopefully the FCS call ups establish themselves over time as FBS programs, but it will take time.

Hawaii also had a win over a ranked Boise and and BCS autobid conference team, albeit not a very good one (4-9 Washington.)

Liberty just doesn't have the schedule IMO. I think even a 3 loss MW/AAC/SBC champ would get in over a 13-0 Liberty. If they keep winning they'll eventually be ranked by AP/Coaches but I doubt they'll even be ranked by the CFP if undefeated.

Those FCS callups were all average in FCS, a good year now and than, most years, average. You expect them to improve in FBS?

One thing is for sure, both programs were as successful, if not more, during their runs at the FCS level than the other dakota school has been.

Since South Dakota State moved up in ‘04

SDSU
143-78 (.647)
14 playoff wins
1* title/2 appearances

SHSU
156-62 (.715)
23 playoff wins
1 title/3 appearances

JSU
149-66 (.693)
7 playoff wins
0 titles/1 appearance

*Does SDSU’s chip last year even count in an FCS with 2/3 (Sam/JMU) of the subdivisions top playoff wins leaders moving up?

Would you say the Jackrabbits have been an average, or a below average program, since going FCS in 2004?

I’d respect the pro FCS narrative-pushing if it wasn’t so blatantly dumb… people here pay attention ya know.

JMU yes, SAM, no. Playing a weak schedule in a weak league (So Con) will pad a schools record. The issue with FCS has always been, 3 strong leagues, the remaining are weak. The loss of JMU, GSU, App State hurt the division, Sam? Not so much. JSU, not at all.

Why are you on GaSo for playing in the SOCON? It has always been a good league as all other leagues some years better than others.

I figured Liberty was gonna pick up their first loss last week to Sam Houston St. It’s just the kind of game they used to lose on a regular basis.

I do think they are likely to pick up their first loss @ Jax St. (3-0) 5-1 on tuesday.

Then all this 13-0 talk can go away.

The talk remains.

Their remaining schedule:
MTSU
at W. Kentucky
LaTech
Old Dominion
UMASS
at UTEP

Other than the game in two weeks at WKU, I don’t see any possible losses.

In the AP poll, they didn’t receive any votes. (A total of 36 are listed). In the coaches poll, they had one point for 42nd place.

Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

(10-11-2023 08:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

(10-11-2023 07:36 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Their remaining schedule:
MTSU
at W. Kentucky
LaTech
Old Dominion
UMASS
at UTEP

Other than the game in two weeks at WKU, I don’t see any possible losses.

In the AP poll, they didn’t receive any votes. (A total of 36 are listed). In the coaches poll, they had one point for 42nd place.

Just wait, we'll figure it out just in time for that game and then forget how to football after.

(10-11-2023 09:08 AM)e-parade Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 07:36 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Their remaining schedule:
MTSU
at W. Kentucky
LaTech
Old Dominion
UMASS
at UTEP

Other than the game in two weeks at WKU, I don’t see any possible losses.

In the AP poll, they didn’t receive any votes. (A total of 36 are listed). In the coaches poll, they had one point for 42nd place.

Just wait, we'll figure it out just in time for that game and then forget how to football after.

Do we know who that coach was?

Here’s the list of voters.

The US LBM Board of Coaches for the 2023 season: Tim Albin, Ohio; Blake Anderson, Utah State; Dino Babers, Syracuse; Tim Beck, Coastal Carolina; Terry Bowden, Louisiana-Monroe; Jeff Brohm, Louisville; Neal Brown, West Virginia; Troy Calhoun, Air Force; Jason Candle, Toledo; Curt Cignetti, James Madison; Dave Clawson, Wake Forest; Sonny Cumbie, Louisiana Tech; Ryan Day, Ohio State; Kalen DeBoer, Washington; Jake Dickert, Washington State; Dana Dimel, Texas-El Paso; Stan Drayton, Temple; Eliah Drinkwitz, Missouri; Sonny Dykes, TCU; Mike Elko, Duke; Shawn Elliott, Georgia State; Jedd Fisch, Arizona; Jimbo Fisher, Texas A&M; James Franklin, Penn State; Marcus Freeman, Notre Dame; Hugh Freeze, Auburn; Willie Fritz, Tulane; Alex Golesh, South Florida; Danny Gonzales, New Mexico; Mike Gundy, Oklahoma State; Will Hall, Southern Mississippi; Tyson Helton, Western Kentucky; Tom Herman, Florida Atlantic; Brady Hoke, San Diego State; Dana Holgorsen; Houston; Butch Jones, Arkansas State; Brent Key, Georgia Tech; Rhett Lashlee, SMU; Lance Leipold, Kansas; Mike Locksley, Maryland; Mike MacIntyre, Florida International; Gus Malzahn, Central Florida; Chuck Martin, Miami (Ohio); Joey McGuire, Texas Tech; Jeff Monken, Army; Jim Mora, Connecticut; Billy Napier, Florida; Pat Narduzzi, Pittsburgh; Brian Newberry, Navy; Barry Odom, UNLV; Brent Pry, Virginia Tech; Matt Rhule, Nebraska; Nick Saban, Alabama; Scott Satterfield, Cincinnati; Kirby Smart, Georgia; Rick Stockstill, Middle Tennessee; Mark Stoops, Kentucky; Jon Sumrall, Troy; Lance Taylor, Western Michigan; Jeff Tedford, Fresno State; Jeff Traylor, Texas-San Antonio; Kyle Whittingham, Utah, Ken Wilson, Nevada; Kevin Wilson, Tulsa.

(10-11-2023 08:48 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

I am saying teams like that are generally in the Top 25 at the end of the year, and if Liberty goes undefeated, they should be treated the same.

(10-11-2023 08:48 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

The AP top 25 and even more so the coaches poll don’t really mean anything except as a way for fans to beat their chests. This is especially true for teams outside the top 4/5 where it may affect the national championship race and after the advent of the CFP and it’s rankings. The AP and coaches top 25 are, on the whole, a way to award teams and fans (and media members by giving them a vote). It’s not really anything more. It is absolutely not a definitive ranking of the 25 best teams in the country.

(10-11-2023 09:57 AM)Claw Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:48 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

I am saying teams like that are generally in the Top 25 at the end of the year, and if Liberty goes undefeated, they should be treated the same.

I'm saying that voting for a weak team just because they are undefeated likely would displace a more qualified G5 champion from an NY6 bowl. That's hardly sportsmanlike.

(10-11-2023 10:20 AM)herdfan2013 Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:48 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 08:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  Going undefeated is difficult and still rare.

I can't imagine MTSU or UTEP going undefeated and not being ranked at the end of the season.

It will be extremely poor sportsmanship if Liberty goes undefeated and is not rated.

If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

The AP top 25 and even more so the coaches poll don’t really mean anything except as a way for fans to beat their chests. This is especially true for teams outside the top 4/5 where it may affect the national championship race and after the advent of the CFP and it’s rankings. The AP and coaches top 25 are, on the whole, a way to award teams and fans (and media members by giving them a vote). It’s not really anything more. It is absolutely not a definitive ranking of the 25 best teams in the country.

I agree. Voters often use the last five or so spots on their ballot just to give a shoutout to teams they feel should get some recognition. With the current CFP selection rules that give the highest ranked G5 team an automatic NY6 slot, those ballots will often be used to rank G5 champs, whether they are really Top 25 material or not. Chances are the selection committee also overrates whichever G5 champ they think should get that spot even if that means placing them ahead of stronger P5 teams.

It's hard enough to rank the Top 5 teams in order, and nearly impossible to fairly distinguish between teams ranked outside the top 15. What I would like to see the AP and Coaches Polls do is have their voters only rank their Top 15 and then publish the highest 25 vote getters. Do away with the "also receiving votes" list. If fewer than 25 schools get votes (which might happen often), so be it.

At one time the polls were the Top 20. The coaches were only asked to submit ten and sometimes they’d have fewer than 20 in the official poll. The coaches poll was conducted by the UPI at the time.

USA Today started their own poll in conjunction with CNN listing a Top 25, which inspired the other polls to expand to 25. At some point USA Today took over the coaches poll.

(10-11-2023 08:48 AM)ken d Wrote:  If you are a poll voter, and you believe that an undefeated school is only about the 50th best team in the country, you should throw them a bone anyway, and vote for them as if they are one of the top 25 teams as an act of sportsmanship? I don't see the logic in that.

In my mind, going 11-0 or 12-0 nearly always merits a Top 25 ranking. Running the table like that is hard to do -- so difficult that I'm not sure strength of schedule matters that much.

In 1985, Bowling Green finished the regular season 11-0. Our only nonconference games were a 4-point win at Kentucky and a 5-point win over a pretty good I-AA team in Akron. By December, Bowling Green managed to squeak into the AP Top 20 at No. 20. That has always seemed fair to me. I think we earned it.

In the California Bowl, Fresno State absolutely demolished Bowling Green, 51-7, and we were knocked out of the Top 20. Fair enough.

But I still think Bowling Green earned that Top 20 ranking heading into that bowl game. The Falcons did all they could do. That AP ranking was a nice gold star. Teams only have so much control over their schedule. It's not the players' fault they didn't get a chance to play Alabama or Notre Dame.

If Liberty runs the table, I think they should probably be ranked, too.