Those explosions appear to be the result of warheads much larger than the small drone attacks. Given that these had to be missile attacks---Im wondering how it was done. Im not aware of any surface to surface missile the Ukrainians have that can carry a large warhead that deep behind the front. I dont think a Storm Shadow missile can get that far from Ukrainian territory. Its possible they flew jets close enough to get into range before launching. There was also talk that the Ukrainians were working on a land attack version of the Neptune missile. It would be a major development if the Ukrainians now have a working domestically produced surface to surface cruise missile capable of striking this deep behind the front. That said---its probably more likely they launched Storm Shadows from aircraft that flew some distance out into the Black Sea before launching. Pretty ballsy attack if thats what they did.

With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

(09-13-2023 10:05 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 09:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 08:22 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Why does it keep posting threads like this?

You prefer to only read Russian propaganda as Todor posts?

I don't give a chit about Russia or Ukraine.

You can always go to reddit if it bothers you...

Touche

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

(09-13-2023 11:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

The military industrial certainly benefited from the war (always does)---but it was going to do well anyway with the rise of China's military and Russia pressing forward with development of next gen weapons. The Peace Dividend world bereft of major peer threats was now gone. The US is relying on a number of older missile systems that---though constantly updated---are based on Cold War platforms that have limitations. It was inevitable that the military industrial complex was going to see a windfall now that a new arms race had begun. Doesnt look like there will be any layoffs at Ratheon and Lockheed anytime soon.

(09-13-2023 11:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

I am intractable on this position. Anything which weakens Russia benefits China as it gives them the better bargaining position. It lessens the chance of a Russian / US alliance to curb their expansionism, and it removes one more competitor from the global quest for rare earth minerals and as an arms provider/exporter. It weakens the U.S. and destabilizes the sense of security in Europe.

Miko your position relative to the dollar, trade, and markets in general is understandable from your vantage point. That is not my vantage point and I couldn't disagree more. I hope you are proven correct. But all if it and its inherent destabilization of all areas of stasis in Europe and in the balance of power, tells me I'm right.

I generally enjoy your posts and carefully consider what you say, but I believe your vantage point on this leaves you with some significant blind spots. Your vantage point assumes some gestalts in business. Chaos and instability are a wildfire, and one which usually cannot be contained. This will spread and the areas impacted by that spread will weaken the West and strengthen China. They know it. I know it. Those in the military in Europe know it. Only business people errantly assume it will not.

If you are correct I'll feel some relief. If I am correct the consequences would be catastrophic. I'm willing to risk the loss of business opportunities to avoid catastrophe. The reason business people should never run the world is because they are focused on the short term and generally cannot conceive of a catastrophe. When 100s of millions of lives depend upon a leadership, I trust strategic planners of war and defense far more than I trust those worried about quarterly statements, investors, and the annual accomplishments. Business to be sure is a tool of the state in peace time and in war. But war is a chaos which like a virulent cancer spreads readily into adjacent areas of the body. China is the most remote from this and as a super power in a way which India is not, they benefit the most from carnage in Europe and the poisonous impact upon the East Coast of the U.S. at the Northern points of that coast. The drift takes fallout across New England and New York and across the Northern Midwest. Putin may not be a stable individual and his nuclear arsenal is quite capable of ending all life on this orb. Is this bear really worth poking, and I might add continually poking with greater intensity?

That sir is a blatantly irresponsible, inexplicable, and incomprehensible risk I would only take if first fired upon. And Ukraine was an issue best decided by trade if the Germans truly wanted to help them. It's a bull**** flashpoint which could ignite the world and only the most inept/corrupt of leaders in the West would have us in it!

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

What chaps me is that people are just now giving a crap and have been manipulated into Russis bad/ukraine good its a noble cause send money.

I hate the stupidity

(09-13-2023 10:26 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  My whole deal with the Russia/Ukraine thing is Clinton signed the Budapest Memorandum back in the early 90s that made Ukraine give their nukes to Russia and the US agreed to defend Ukraine if Russia was to attack them. Obama didn't keep up our part of the deal when Russia took over Crimea and now Biden didn't keep up our part of the deal when Russia invaded Ukraine. Instead, we are sending Ukraine $Billions and weapons. And we KNOW the Biden family has received $millions and treasure from BOTH countries. Putin knew that he wouldn't have been able to do what he did while Trump was POTUS because Trump wasn't compromised. If we aren't going to keep up our end of a deal, then don't sign them. The Russians basically invaded Ukraine by rolling down the middle of a highway. A flock of drones would have ended that before it even started, but we were scared of "WWIII".

Well Obama DID give the Ukrainians blankets!

(09-13-2023 11:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

I'm inclined to agree with Miko. China needs trade. The only benefit they get is cheap oil. India maybe benefits. Arms dealers benefit. Everyone else loses. So Russia should just go home. Problem solved.

(09-13-2023 12:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

I am intractable on this position. Anything which weakens Russia benefits China as it gives them the better bargaining position. It lessens the chance of a Russian / US alliance to curb their expansionism, and it removes one more competitor from the global quest for rare earth minerals and as an arms provider/exporter. It weakens the U.S. and destabilizes the sense of security in Europe.

Miko your position relative to the dollar, trade, and markets in general is understandable from your vantage point. That is not my vantage point and I couldn't disagree more. I hope you are proven correct. But all if it and its inherent destabilization of all areas of stasis in Europe and in the balance of power, tells me I'm right.

I generally enjoy your posts and carefully consider what you say, but I believe your vantage point on this leaves you with some significant blind spots. Your vantage point assumes some gestalts in business. Chaos and instability are a wildfire, and one which usually cannot be contained. This will spread and the areas impacted by that spread will weaken the West and strengthen China. They know it. I know it. Those in the military in Europe know it. Only business people errantly assume it will not.

If you are correct I'll feel some relief. If I am correct the consequences would be catastrophic. I'm willing to risk the loss of business opportunities to avoid catastrophe. The reason business people should never run the world is because they are focused on the short term and generally cannot conceive of a catastrophe. When 100s of millions of lives depend upon a leadership, I trust strategic planners of war and defense far more than I trust those worried about quarterly statements, investors, and the annual accomplishments. Business to be sure is a tool of the state in peace time and in war. But war is a chaos which like a virulent cancer spreads readily into adjacent areas of the body. China is the most remote from this and as a super power in a way which India is not, they benefit the most from carnage in Europe and the poisonous impact upon the East Coast of the U.S. at the Northern points of that coast. The drift takes fallout across New England and New York and across the Northern Midwest. Putin may not be a stable individual and his nuclear arsenal is quite capable of ending all life on this orb. Is this bear really worth poking, and I might add continually poking with greater intensity?

That sir is a blatantly irresponsible, inexplicable, and incomprehensible risk I would only take if first fired upon. And Ukraine was an issue best decided by trade if the Germans truly wanted to help them. It's a bull**** flashpoint which could ignite the world and only the most inept/corrupt of leaders in the West would have us in it!

I guarantee that major international businesses do not want a repeat of the effect of Russia sanctions so they are getting out of China. China is going to become less and less of an export power and more of a producer for their own market. That is real. Everyone sees the risk of what they have been doing relying on a totalitarian government for all their supplies. We didn't even have any medical protection equipment. We hardly had any antibiotics. This war has emphasized what the Wuhan virus brought to light. We cannot be so dependent on China.

China hoped to use Putin as a hedge against the west. Now a potential ally is a weakened pariah. This does not benefit them.

(09-13-2023 12:15 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

What chaps me is that people are just now giving a crap and have been manipulated into Russis bad/ukraine good its a noble cause send money.

I hate the stupidity

I hate the NPC stupidity coming from the Tuckers of the world. Did some Ukrainian do something awful to him?

I don't believe in moral diplomacy. What we did in Libya was wrong. What we did in Kosovo was wrong. Dayton was wrong. WWI American involvement was wrong.

This is not moral. Its about a real threat to the stability of Europe. What Russia did to Georgia and what Azerbaijan has been doing to Armenia are not our concerns. Russian aggression on our doorstep with clear indication they want Moldova and the Baltics next is. Trump was right to kill Russians and Iranians in Syria who threatened us. Biden is right to send Ukraine weapons to kill Russians who would threaten our allies next.

Russia is not going to start a nuclear war over this. They will just keep depleting their fertile manpower. And kidnapping some Cubans and others also to fight for them. They are having a serious internal debate over mobilization. They are worried too much will trigger a revolt in Russia.

(09-13-2023 12:15 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

What chaps me is that people are just now giving a crap and have been manipulated into Russis bad/ukraine good its a noble cause send money.

I hate the stupidity

I don't call a single united media perspective a manipulation Shere. I call it a wholesale lie. We've long since passed giving the whole perspective on anything and letting the people decide. Manipulation would still involve both sides of the argument with just one weighted. There is only one side now, what the corporatists want.

(09-13-2023 12:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 12:15 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

What chaps me is that people are just now giving a crap and have been manipulated into Russis bad/ukraine good its a noble cause send money.

I hate the stupidity

I hate the NPC stupidity coming from the Tuckers of the world. Did some Ukrainian do something awful to him?

I don't believe in moral diplomacy. What we did in Libya was wrong. What we did in Kosovo was wrong. Dayton was wrong. WWI American involvement was wrong.

This is not moral. Its about a real threat to the stability of Europe. What Russia did to Georgia and what Azerbaijan has been doing to Armenia are not our concerns. Russian aggression on our doorstep with clear indication they want Moldova and the Baltics next is. Trump was right to kill Russians and Iranians in Syria who threatened us. Biden is right to send Ukraine weapons to kill Russians who would threaten our allies next.

Russia is not going to start a nuclear war over this. They will just keep depleting their fertile manpower. And kidnapping some Cubans and others also to fight for them. They are having a serious internal debate over mobilization. They are worried too much will trigger a revolt in Russia.

You almost wish the USSR never fell because at least that entity could maintain stability in their region while the U.S. kept sability in it's sphere. Unfortunately Russia is being run by a short sighted greedy snake who never tried to rebuild stable institutions in Russia. When you run a country like a tin pot despot...who knows what will unfold in the aftermath. I'm not worried about a nuclear war either - or Putin would have done something already. I'm worried about the aftermath when his country falls apart and we have a redo of the oligarchs having fireside sales of bad and dangerous **** being sold to the highest bidder of dubious character.

(09-13-2023 12:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

I don't think this benefits China all that much. Maybe it's a push but the flip side is that trade is being disrupted and that's bad for China. With Russia being a pariah internationally, China does benefit from cheaper oil. That said, the war appeared to accelerate the new cold war developing between the U.S. and China - and China was most definitely not ready for that. While a number of the issues China is dealing with began with the Trump administration clamping down on trade and then Covid - I think the Ukraine war accelerated the time table in light of Putin and Xi getting closer.

India is most likely the biggest beneficiary of this conflict. They are fairly well self sufficient with food so a loss of Ukrainian grain does not hurt them. Buying cheaper Russian oil and other commodities are a net benefit. As China continues to see a massive outpouring of investment by foreigners, India is benefitting from this too.

Our military industrial complex is getting a big jolt because of this war.

I am intractable on this position. Anything which weakens Russia benefits China as it gives them the better bargaining position. It lessens the chance of a Russian / US alliance to curb their expansionism, and it removes one more competitor from the global quest for rare earth minerals and as an arms provider/exporter. It weakens the U.S. and destabilizes the sense of security in Europe.

Miko your position relative to the dollar, trade, and markets in general is understandable from your vantage point. That is not my vantage point and I couldn't disagree more. I hope you are proven correct. But all if it and its inherent destabilization of all areas of stasis in Europe and in the balance of power, tells me I'm right.

I generally enjoy your posts and carefully consider what you say, but I believe your vantage point on this leaves you with some significant blind spots. Your vantage point assumes some gestalts in business. Chaos and instability are a wildfire, and one which usually cannot be contained. This will spread and the areas impacted by that spread will weaken the West and strengthen China. They know it. I know it. Those in the military in Europe know it. Only business people errantly assume it will not.

If you are correct I'll feel some relief. If I am correct the consequences would be catastrophic. I'm willing to risk the loss of business opportunities to avoid catastrophe. The reason business people should never run the world is because they are focused on the short term and generally cannot conceive of a catastrophe. When 100s of millions of lives depend upon a leadership, I trust strategic planners of war and defense far more than I trust those worried about quarterly statements, investors, and the annual accomplishments. Business to be sure is a tool of the state in peace time and in war. But war is a chaos which like a virulent cancer spreads readily into adjacent areas of the body. China is the most remote from this and as a super power in a way which India is not, they benefit the most from carnage in Europe and the poisonous impact upon the East Coast of the U.S. at the Northern points of that coast. The drift takes fallout across New England and New York and across the Northern Midwest. Putin may not be a stable individual and his nuclear arsenal is quite capable of ending all life on this orb. Is this bear really worth poking, and I might add continually poking with greater intensity?

That sir is a blatantly irresponsible, inexplicable, and incomprehensible risk I would only take if first fired upon. And Ukraine was an issue best decided by trade if the Germans truly wanted to help them. It's a bull**** flashpoint which could ignite the world and only the most inept/corrupt of leaders in the West would have us in it!

I hope I'm right just so that we don't have Armageddon in the not too distant future. I think your posts are very interesting reading and thought provoking as well. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle? IDK.

(09-13-2023 01:04 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 12:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 12:15 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 11:06 AM)JRsec Wrote:  With each report, each escalation, I have two thoughts that keep coming back into my mind.

1. Who benefits from this war? Europe? No. The United States? No. Ukraine? Debatable. China? Your damn right they do!

2. What is the risk? Nuclear war. With the weapons available who is hit hardest with the damage? Europe, the East Coast of the U.S. if we are not directly involved because of Fallout drift. Who stays the cleanest in nuclear terms? China and most of the Southern hemisphere.

The horribly criminal regime pushing the Ukraine in this is profiting his benefactor, China.

And that last statement is the only thing in this whole damned mess that makes any sense at all.

What chaps me is that people are just now giving a crap and have been manipulated into Russis bad/ukraine good its a noble cause send money.

I hate the stupidity

I hate the NPC stupidity coming from the Tuckers of the world. Did some Ukrainian do something awful to him?

I don't believe in moral diplomacy. What we did in Libya was wrong. What we did in Kosovo was wrong. Dayton was wrong. WWI American involvement was wrong.

This is not moral. Its about a real threat to the stability of Europe. What Russia did to Georgia and what Azerbaijan has been doing to Armenia are not our concerns. Russian aggression on our doorstep with clear indication they want Moldova and the Baltics next is. Trump was right to kill Russians and Iranians in Syria who threatened us. Biden is right to send Ukraine weapons to kill Russians who would threaten our allies next.

Russia is not going to start a nuclear war over this. They will just keep depleting their fertile manpower. And kidnapping some Cubans and others also to fight for them. They are having a serious internal debate over mobilization. They are worried too much will trigger a revolt in Russia.

You almost wish the USSR never fell because at least that entity could maintain stability in their region while the U.S. kept sability in it's sphere. Unfortunately Russia is being run by a short sighted greedy snake who never tried to rebuild stable institutions in Russia. When you run a country like a tin pot despot...who knows what will unfold in the aftermath. I'm not worried about a nuclear war either - or Putin would have done something already. I'm worried about the aftermath when his country falls apart and we have a redo of the oligarchs having fireside sales of bad and dangerous **** being sold to the highest bidder of dubious character.

That is my concern also. All of those 61 official private military companies forming little fiefdoms and Russia starting to look like Somalia with nukes. But Russia trying to pull their Crimea stunt in Latvia and Estonia or Romania or Poland is a bigger concern. They need to be stopped.

(09-13-2023 10:46 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Those explosions appear to be the result of warheads much larger than the small drone attacks. Given that these had to be missile attacks---Im wondering how it was done. Im not aware of any surface to surface missile the Ukrainians have that can carry a large warhead that deep behind the front. I dont think a Storm Shadow missile can get that far from Ukrainian territory. Its possible they flew jets close enough to get into range before launching. There was also talk that the Ukrainians were working on a land attack version of the Neptune missile. It would be a major development if the Ukrainians now have a working domestically produced surface to surface cruise missile capable of striking this deep behind the front. That said---its probably more likely they launched Storm Shadows from aircraft that flew some distance out into the Black Sea before launching. Pretty ballsy attack if thats what they did.

I haven't looked in a few hours but this morning the Ukrainians were congratulating their fighter pilots. So probably rockets fired from fighter jets. On the social media side the Ukrainians have been besting the Russian since the beginning.

(09-13-2023 01:49 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 10:46 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Those explosions appear to be the result of warheads much larger than the small drone attacks. Given that these had to be missile attacks---Im wondering how it was done. Im not aware of any surface to surface missile the Ukrainians have that can carry a large warhead that deep behind the front. I dont think a Storm Shadow missile can get that far from Ukrainian territory. Its possible they flew jets close enough to get into range before launching. There was also talk that the Ukrainians were working on a land attack version of the Neptune missile. It would be a major development if the Ukrainians now have a working domestically produced surface to surface cruise missile capable of striking this deep behind the front. That said---its probably more likely they launched Storm Shadows from aircraft that flew some distance out into the Black Sea before launching. Pretty ballsy attack if thats what they did.

I haven't looked in a few hours but this morning the Ukrainians were congratulating their fighter pilots. So probably rockets fired from fighter jets. On the social media side the Ukrainians have been besting the Russian since the beginning.

TBF, the thumbs are heavily weighing down the scales in favor of Ukraine on the information front. That said, there was never any real justification for Russia to invade Ukraine in the first place so their (Putin's) pleas and justifcations are worthless anyways.

(09-13-2023 01:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 01:49 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(09-13-2023 10:46 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Those explosions appear to be the result of warheads much larger than the small drone attacks. Given that these had to be missile attacks---Im wondering how it was done. Im not aware of any surface to surface missile the Ukrainians have that can carry a large warhead that deep behind the front. I dont think a Storm Shadow missile can get that far from Ukrainian territory. Its possible they flew jets close enough to get into range before launching. There was also talk that the Ukrainians were working on a land attack version of the Neptune missile. It would be a major development if the Ukrainians now have a working domestically produced surface to surface cruise missile capable of striking this deep behind the front. That said---its probably more likely they launched Storm Shadows from aircraft that flew some distance out into the Black Sea before launching. Pretty ballsy attack if thats what they did.

I haven't looked in a few hours but this morning the Ukrainians were congratulating their fighter pilots. So probably rockets fired from fighter jets. On the social media side the Ukrainians have been besting the Russian since the beginning.

TBF, the thumbs are heavily weighing down the scales in favor of Ukraine on the information front. That said, there was never any real justification for Russia to invade Ukraine in the first place so their (Putin's) pleas and justifcations are worthless anyways.

Yes it's obvious but still needs to be said for some reason. Anyway as more and better satellite images come in (since you can't trust Russian reporting) it does seem that these two worships are destroyed not just damaged. More losses for Russia's Black Sea fleet.....Not bad for a country without a Navy.

This is how Russian State TV is handling the attack. For two and a half minutes he reads what's mandated on his computer screen. Nothing new... Nazis this Nazis that and how Nazis are helping Nazis and how the Nazis will pay. At about the two and a half minute mark he goes after other Russians and begins calling them out by name as traitors. I believe that's a good sign.