“Top 16” teams from the Big East, Big 12, and Big 10. Would be played in Las Vegas and teams would have to decline bids to the NIT.

https://themessenger.com/sports/fox-spor...-las-vegas

Meh, what would be the appeal in that?

Top teams from Big East, Big Ten and Big 12 that did not make the NCAA tourney? Usually 4-8 teams from each conference make the NCAA. This new tourney would be a battle of 5th to 10th place teams. What's the point? Just declare the season over and stay home.

(09-11-2023 08:16 AM)goofus Wrote:  Meh, what would be the appeal in that?

Top teams from Big East, Big Ten and Big 12 that did not make the NCAA tourney? Usually 4-8 teams from each conference make the NCAA. This new tourney would be a battle of 5th to 10th place teams. What's the point? Just declare the season over and stay home.

I can see Fox would consider it, but I'm not sure that there is enough appetite for non-NCAAT games to make it worth their while. What kind of ratings do NIT games get at present? I can't imagine that they're very good.

(09-11-2023 08:23 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 08:16 AM)goofus Wrote:  Meh, what would be the appeal in that?

Top teams from Big East, Big Ten and Big 12 that did not make the NCAA tourney? Usually 4-8 teams from each conference make the NCAA. This new tourney would be a battle of 5th to 10th place teams. What's the point? Just declare the season over and stay home.

I can see Fox would consider it, but I'm not sure that there is enough appetite for non-NCAAT games to make it worth their while. What kind of ratings do NIT games get at present? I can't imagine that they're very good.

I think the NIT games do okay, because they don't go head to head with the NCAA tournament but are still played during March. If Fox put games on their broadcast channel and not FS1 then it would do just fine. I think taking 16 also-ran power teams is the wrong move. Should do 8 power teams and 8 good mid-majors that missed the dance and then put them against each other.

(09-11-2023 08:16 AM)goofus Wrote:  Top teams from Big East, Big Ten and Big 12 that did not make the NCAA tourney? Usually 4-8 teams from each conference make the NCAA. This new tourney would be a battle of 5th to 10th place teams. What's the point? Just declare the season over and stay home.

It's content for Fox in the week before the Final Four when basketball interest is peaking.

Didn't they try that already?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegas_16



They couldn't convince 16 teams to play. Settled with 8. The hosts decided not to try the tournament again.

However I can see teams from those conferences be interested. If they lose, they lose to a peer conference team. Not some CAA/NEC/Patriot regular season champion that missed their chance in the Conference Tourney. Also, a weekend trip to Vegas on TV rather than some on-campus gym.

(09-11-2023 08:23 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 08:16 AM)goofus Wrote:  Meh, what would be the appeal in that?

Top teams from Big East, Big Ten and Big 12 that did not make the NCAA tourney? Usually 4-8 teams from each conference make the NCAA. This new tourney would be a battle of 5th to 10th place teams. What's the point? Just declare the season over and stay home.

I can see Fox would consider it, but I'm not sure that there is enough appetite for non-NCAAT games to make it worth their while. What kind of ratings do NIT games get at present? I can't imagine that they're very good.

Honestly, this proposal makes sense in this new world.

It’s the equivalent of the second-tier bowls featuring power conference teams - they’re not going to get massive ratings, but the power conferences still get a good payout and it provides content during a period where there isn’t that much else sports competition.

If the NIT isn’t really paying that much (or anything) out and the Big Ten, Big East and Big 12 can get a bit of a financial bonus from holding their own consolation tournament, why not try something different? Speaking as an Illinois fan, an NIT bid is super disappointing and watching them play a mid-major opponent in the NIT is almost like salt in the wound where you’d rather not have them play at all. At least a tournament featuring all power conference teams in a trip to Las Vegas is a little more compelling (even if it’s obviously nowhere near an NCAA Tournament berth).

(The Vegas part also makes a whole lot of sense since this consolation tournament seems tailor-made for the gambling degenerates that are having a post-first weekend NCAA Tournament hangover.)

I like the NIT in that the first three rounds are played on-campus. And many of the games draw quite well — with the students being raucous and vocal.

I'm likely in the minority on this board, but I enjoy the NIT and feel it serves a quality purpose. Some of you might not know, but the NIT was as big a deal as the NCAA Tournament until the 1960s. It has a history and tradition (with the Final Four at Madison Square Garden).

Obviously, I support Fox Sports' right to attempt this tourney. But I would hate to see it damage the NIT.

(09-11-2023 08:55 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I like the NIT in that the first three rounds are played on-campus. And many of the games draw quite well — with the students being raucous and vocal.

I'm likely in the minority on this board, but I enjoy the NIT and feel it serves a quality purpose. Some of you might not know, but the NIT was as big a deal as the NCAA Tournament until the 1960s. It has a history and tradition (with the Final Four at Madison Square Garden).

Obviously, I support Fox Sports' right to attempt this tourney. But I would hate to see it damage the NIT.

Understand, but here are two other issues at play:

1. The NIT is tilting toward mid-majors to drive interest. On-campus interest to see a 17-14 Big East or Big 10 team play College of Charleston or Texas-Arlington is minimal and the ratings reflect this.

2. Beginning this past year, the NIT final four is no longer at MSG. It's in (drum roll....) Las Vegas. NIT is an ESPN product and Fox, well, wants its own event.

By the way, if Fox and these 3 leagues go through with this, you can almost guarantee that the SEC and ACC will either (a) join this tournament so that it’s an all-power conference affair or (b) set up their own ESPN-controlled tournament between just their 2 leagues (e.g. top 8/12/16 from the SEC and ACC). The NIT is in deep trouble.

I also wonder if a downstream effect would be a renewed push for NCAA Tournament expansion for more at-large bids for the power conferences. (I’m personally not advocating for this, by the way. I’d be fine with going up to 72 teams, but I loathe the larger 96-team formats.) Part of the impetus for NCAA Tournament expansion is that each additional tourney team would provide more value than that same team playing in the NIT, so seeing power conferences actively just destroy all value of the NIT completely and take control of a consolation tournament could spur a lot of action.

Well, that's probably a good sign regarding the negotiations between Fox and the Big East on a new contract

This kills off the NIT. Fox Tourney is going to get decent viewership.

North Carolina turned down the NIT bid last season. I don't see top brand names accepting the NIT anymore. This is a good money grab from Fox.

(09-11-2023 09:07 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  By the way, if Fox and these 3 leagues go through with this, you can almost guarantee that the SEC and ACC will either (a) join this tournament so that it’s an all-power conference affair or (b) set up their own ESPN-controlled tournament between just their 2 leagues (e.g. top 8/12/16 from the SEC and ACC). The NIT is in deep trouble.

I also wonder if a downstream effect would be a renewed push for NCAA Tournament expansion for more at-large bids for the power conferences. (I’m personally not advocating for this, by the way. I’d be fine with going up to 72 teams, but I loathe the larger 96-team formats.) Part of the impetus for NCAA Tournament expansion is that each additional tourney team would provide more value than that same team playing in the NIT, so seeing power conferences actively just destroy all value of the NIT completely and take control of a consolation tournament could spur a lot of action.

I personally think this is just Exhibit 734B on how the top college athletic programs (football and basketball) continue to work towards an inevitable split from the NCAA.

(09-11-2023 09:29 AM)Bogg Wrote:  Well, that's probably a good sign regarding the negotiations between Fox and the Big East on a new contract

That and the reports of the Gavitt Games being extended very much appear to be positive news for the BE, FOX (and the B1G continuing to want to partner in various forms).

(09-11-2023 08:47 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  Didn't they try that already?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegas_16



They couldn't convince 16 teams to play. Settled with 8. The hosts decided not to try the tournament again.

Not really. Vegas 16 hoped to get power teams. They couldn’t and got CBI caliber teams. This hypothetically would get some NIT teams, where the Vegas 16 would never be able to get NIT teams.

(09-11-2023 10:37 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 09:07 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  By the way, if Fox and these 3 leagues go through with this, you can almost guarantee that the SEC and ACC will either (a) join this tournament so that it’s an all-power conference affair or (b) set up their own ESPN-controlled tournament between just their 2 leagues (e.g. top 8/12/16 from the SEC and ACC). The NIT is in deep trouble.

I also wonder if a downstream effect would be a renewed push for NCAA Tournament expansion for more at-large bids for the power conferences. (I’m personally not advocating for this, by the way. I’d be fine with going up to 72 teams, but I loathe the larger 96-team formats.) Part of the impetus for NCAA Tournament expansion is that each additional tourney team would provide more value than that same team playing in the NIT, so seeing power conferences actively just destroy all value of the NIT completely and take control of a consolation tournament could spur a lot of action.

I personally think this is just Exhibit 734B on how the top college athletic programs (football and basketball) continue to work towards an inevitable split from the NCAA.

Possible, although at least with respect to basketball, I think this is more of setting up the power conferences to get more leverage to get a larger share of the NCAA Tournament revenue in a way that they get a larger share of the CFP revenue. As we just saw with the CFP discussions, the access discussions were a red herring. Ultimately, the Big Ten and SEC were totally cool with the G5 getting a playoff spot. What they will fight for, though, is an increased share of the revenue from that playoff.

Similarly, I think even the greediest revenue hunters in the Big Ten and SEC know that the NCAA Tournament itself is *extremely* valuable with its current setup and the inclusion of the smaller and midmajor conferences is integral to that value (much more so than football where the power conferences have a lot more leverage to simply shut out the G5). So, I really don’t think the goal is to break up the NCAA Tournament, but rather get it closer to the point where 80% of the revenue is going to the power conferences in the same way as the CFP.

(09-11-2023 09:01 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 08:55 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I like the NIT in that the first three rounds are played on-campus. And many of the games draw quite well — with the students being raucous and vocal.

I'm likely in the minority on this board, but I enjoy the NIT and feel it serves a quality purpose. Some of you might not know, but the NIT was as big a deal as the NCAA Tournament until the 1960s. It has a history and tradition (with the Final Four at Madison Square Garden).

Obviously, I support Fox Sports' right to attempt this tourney. But I would hate to see it damage the NIT.

Understand, but here are two other issues at play:

1. The NIT is tilting toward mid-majors to drive interest. On-campus interest to see a 17-14 Big East or Big 10 team play College of Charleston or Texas-Arlington is minimal and the ratings reflect this.

2. Beginning this past year, the NIT final four is no longer at MSG. It's in (drum roll....) Las Vegas. NIT is an ESPN product and Fox, well, wants its own event.

That was only for 2023. Butler is hosting the 2024 NIT finals.

It was probably a big money suck for the tournament to host at MSG. So the NCAA put it out for bids. Las Vegas is not the permanent home, it could be, but they would have to continually bid on it; even then, will probably be rotated.

So a yearly tournament involving the cellar dwellers from only 3 conferences? Brilliant.

(09-11-2023 09:07 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  By the way, if Fox and these 3 leagues go through with this, you can almost guarantee that the SEC and ACC will either (a) join this tournament so that it’s an all-power conference affair or (b) set up their own ESPN-controlled tournament between just their 2 leagues (e.g. top 8/12/16 from the SEC and ACC). The NIT is in deep trouble.

I could see a format where you get 6 teams from the P4 conferences, 4 teams from the Big East (since they have fewer numbers compared to P4), and maybe allow for 4 cinderellas (top 4 mid-majors) who will be competitive. That might make for a solid 32 team tournament between ESPN and FOX (16 Fox properties, 16 ESPN or other properties). I think this could replace the NIT or a new NIT format.

Then the CBI could be the top 32 remaining mid-majors.