Today they went

2-2 versus NAIA
1-2 versus D2
1-0 versus NCCAA
0-2 versus FCS



This year they have only beaten-

West Virginia State
Black Hills State
St Thomas U Miami FL
Taylor University
Central State -
Virgina-Lynchburg
Webber International

Yikes

Yeh some years they do suck this bad

You would think in the Portal era they would do better. I would think there would be plenty of athletes in D1 that are doing the work but not on scholarship and not getting any playing time, and willing to step down to Pioneer just so they they can play. OTOH, maybe they're thinking that if they're going to transfer, they could transfer to a D2 or NAIA and actually get a scholarship.

Colorado Mesa just sent the WAC a message by saying look at us? We beat one of the best teams in the Pioneer League for the past decade as they took down San Diego. I do think Colorado Mesa, CSU-Pueblo and Colorado Mines could do well in FCS.

(09-10-2023 12:00 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  You would think in the Portal era they would do better. I would think there would be plenty of athletes in D1 that are doing the work but not on scholarship and not getting any playing time, and willing to step down to Pioneer just so they they can play. OTOH, maybe they're thinking that if they're going to transfer, they could transfer to a D2 or NAIA and actually get a scholarship.

I am wondering if there are any hard negotiations for the football schools on the west coast to move up to D2 and join the GNAC right now? Simpson, Arizona Christian, Ottawa AZ, Southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon, College of Idaho and all of the Montana schools?

Pioneer is simply a loophole allowing D-I schools to field non-scholarship D-III football teams and call it D-I

(09-10-2023 05:54 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Pioneer is simply a loophole allowing D-I schools to field non-scholarship D-III football teams and call it D-I

1. It's not a loophole, because the NCAA banned teams playing below their division after 1992.

2. Non-scholarship Division I is not Division III. Ask anyone who has played Harvard.

3. The Pioneer struggles because it is underfunded and that limits recruiting and coaching. It also doesn't help that some PFL schools go way down to pick up wins out of conference.

(09-10-2023 05:54 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Pioneer is simply a loophole allowing D-I schools to field non-scholarship D-III football teams and call it D-I

Pioneer is better than D3. Pioneer has the D1 label attached to it, so it attracts athletes who care about that, but don't care about the lack of athletic scholarships at the given school.

D3 has rules about athletes receiving scholarships must match the percentage of non-athletes receiving scholarships, so as to avoid abuse. Does the Pioneer league? Real question. I don't know the answer.

(09-10-2023 05:54 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Pioneer is simply a loophole allowing D-I schools to field non-scholarship D-III football teams and call it D-I

I ageee 100% But I’m also going to say there’s nothing wrong with that. Listen I’m old enough to rember whe a lot of private D1 schools played D3 football. Then the NCAA made that against the rules. Mostly because the D3 schools rightfully claimed the D1 schools playing D3 football had an unfair advantage due to better facilities (think training and therapy, not necessarily stadiums) due to the revenues from being in D1. But only the most delusional Pioneer Legaue school fan will claim they are truly playing D1 football. I say that as a fan of a school considering adding non scholarship football (likely in the Pioneer League.) I hope Xavier does add non scholarship football because I would still enjoy the game (and a visit to Listermans Brewery) on a Nice fall day. I’m never going to pretend that it’s the same level as even Indiana St football, but it won’t be a bad way to spend a saturday.

I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

(09-10-2023 06:04 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(09-10-2023 05:54 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Pioneer is simply a loophole allowing D-I schools to field non-scholarship D-III football teams and call it D-I

Pioneer is better than D3. Pioneer has the D1 label attached to it, so it attracts athletes who care about that, but don't care about the lack of athletic scholarships at the given school.

D3 has rules about athletes receiving scholarships must match the percentage of non-athletes receiving scholarships, so as to avoid abuse. Does the Pioneer league? Real question. I don't know the answer.

That’s actually a very good question. My instinct is to guess that most PFL schools are truly trying to give out as little aid as possible to get students (including the football players) to come there. But that doesn’t really address what the rule is, if there is one.

I found this in an article about Dayton. It’s relevant, but doesn’t give a definitive answer. It did, however, mention the fact that the academic scholarships for football players tend to fall in line with general students. It’s an older article, but I don’t think the spirit of the PFL has changed much. I guess the big question is if they use “leadership grants” or the like. But like I said, the schools thay give the most money to draw football players are also the schools that give the most aid to draw general students. The two go pretty hand in hand.

“Most UD players, though, are receiving some financial help — just not in the form of athletic scholarships. Don Vince, the UD associate director of financial aid, said 95 of 110 players have earned academic scholarships this year ranging from $2,000 to $15,000. That number doesn’t include federal and state need-based grants independent of the university, for which many UD players qualify.

Two other Flyers have had the full cost of attending UD paid through the ROTC, while another is going to school for free because his parents are UD employees.

The percentage of players getting academic scholarships is comparable to what the rest of the student body receives. Since the cost of tuition, room and board is $37,680 this year, however, most parents still are writing hefty checks. But don’t try telling former Flyers coach Mike Kelly that UD football is just for players from affluent backgrounds.”

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/sport...bfB4T6VeK/

(09-10-2023 06:55 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

If the FCS wants to improve their brand, the NEC, Patriot League and Pioneer League need to have their AQ status revoked since they don't sponsor football at the full scholarship level. There will be a few teams in the NEC and Patriot League that will leave because they don't want to miss out on participating in the playoffs. The NEC and Patriot League will probably combine with whatever teams are left for a northeast UAC like conference.

(09-11-2023 05:40 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(09-10-2023 06:55 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

If the FCS wants to improve their brand, the NEC, Patriot League and Pioneer League need to have their AQ status revoked since they don't sponsor football at the full scholarship level. There will be a few teams in the NEC and Patriot League that will leave because they don't want to miss out on participating in the playoffs. The NEC and Patriot League will probably combine with whatever teams are left for a northeast UAC like conference.

Fordham is pushing the Patriot League to upped the football scholarships while Georgetown does not. The others are in between. If the Patriot League wants William & Mary? They have to offer the full FCS level.

I don't think anybody should be particularly surprised that the league is struggling early this season, or that it isn't a particularly deep, or even good, league. It isn't supposed to be.

Like with virtually every other FCS league, even the "good" ones, the gap between schools that are *really trying* and schools that are not is very significant. At the high end (St.Thomas, historically San Diego, sometimes but clearly not this year Davidson), the schools are providing something pretty similar to a standard FCS experience, just without scholarships. They're getting very similar quality strength and conditioning support, operations support, scouting, recruiting, etc etc. i know several staffers that have gone on from Pioneer League programs to other FCS and even FBS coaching staffs and support rooms, and at the top end of the league, I've been told the gap isn't huge. At the bottom end...it's essentially a gentrified D-III experience.

By that, I mean there's basically no talent difference, no operational difference, and little resource difference. Butler, Valpo, Presbyterian, etc are not trying to win. They have football teams for the same reason the bottom half of D-II and D-III have football teams...to recruit students to pay partial tuition.

Does that hurt FCS? I mean, I don't think so. Every conference, every level of football, has bad teams, poorly resourced teams, or teams with different levels of ambition. The Big Sky has some of the best football in FCS, but Northern Colorado and Portland State freaking suck, and have little pathway to *not* sucking. Like others have mentioned, several other leagues have scholarship restrictions below the FCS maximum, and other leagues that *do* allow the full scholarship allotment have schools that elect not to offer that many. If we kicked out every conference that had schools not offer as many scholarships as they could, we'd have to ditch like, 150 programs from D-I.

The best Pioneer league teams can win a playoff game and give good MVFC/Big Sky/CAA squads a run for their money in the regular season. The bad Pioneer League teams are roadkill. I don't think that's so different from...virtually every other FCS league. It's certainly not a reason for the financial struggles of the national product.

(09-11-2023 07:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Fordham is pushing the Patriot League to upped the football scholarships while Georgetown does not. The others are in between. If the Patriot League wants William & Mary? They have to offer the full FCS level.

The difference is literally three scholarships. Scholarships by school:

Fordham 60
Holy Cross 60
Colgate 60
Lafayette 60
Lehigh 60
Bucknell ~55-58
Georgetown 0

If Fordham wants 63 Georgetown is not gong to stop them.

(09-11-2023 08:15 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 07:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Fordham is pushing the Patriot League to upped the football scholarships while Georgetown does not. The others are in between. If the Patriot League wants William & Mary? They have to offer the full FCS level.

The difference is literally three scholarships. Scholarships by school:

Fordham 60
Holy Cross 60
Colgate 60
Lafayette 60
Lehigh 60
Bucknell ~55-58
Georgetown 0

If Fordham wants 63 Georgetown is not gong to stop them.

The no redshirting rule is far worse than 3 fewer scholarships. I don't think your conference understands how much that hurts them. Holy Cross and Fordham are looking pretty good this year, but once the extra covid year players cycle out I expect they'll return to mediocrity.

As for asking people who played Harvard, that's pretty tough because they refuse to schedule outside a little clique.

(09-11-2023 05:40 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(09-10-2023 06:55 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

If the FCS wants to improve their brand, the NEC, Patriot League and Pioneer League need to have their AQ status revoked since they don't sponsor football at the full scholarship level. There will be a few teams in the NEC and Patriot League that will leave because they don't want to miss out on participating in the playoffs. The NEC and Patriot League will probably combine with whatever teams are left for a northeast UAC like conference.

Are you going to revoke Ivy too or would they just buyout all the FCS schools instead?

(09-11-2023 07:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Fordham is pushing the Patriot League to upped the football scholarships while Georgetown does not. The others are in between. If the Patriot League wants William & Mary? They have to offer the full FCS level.

This is not actually true

(09-10-2023 06:55 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

The Patriot has good teams from time to time, so being an AQ is warranted. At least with these conferences, none are getting first round byes so we can deal with them being AQ but requiring an additional step to move forward.

(09-11-2023 07:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(09-11-2023 05:40 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(09-10-2023 06:55 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  I'm honestly surprised that the PFL gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs. There's a couple of other FCS leagues that don't allow scholarships or the full 63 limit. I'm thinking they're the Ivy League (non-scholarship), NEC (limited), and Patriot League (limited). The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs by choice, but I'm not sure if any of the limit / non-scholly leagues really deserve an AQ.

Supposedly the Pioneer League schools try to give out a lot of academic scholarships to the football players. A lot of them still do pay though. San Diego, Dayton, Butler, and Drake have all had some decent teams. Newbie St Thomas seems to be on the rise.

If the FCS wants to improve their brand, the NEC, Patriot League and Pioneer League need to have their AQ status revoked since they don't sponsor football at the full scholarship level. There will be a few teams in the NEC and Patriot League that will leave because they don't want to miss out on participating in the playoffs. The NEC and Patriot League will probably combine with whatever teams are left for a northeast UAC like conference.

Fordham is pushing the Patriot League to upped the football scholarships while Georgetown does not. The others are in between. If the Patriot League wants William & Mary? They have to offer the full FCS level.

William and Mary aren't going to leave a conference of institutional peers (mid to high level public universities) that they are competitive in to be the southernmost member of a league of small private schools in the Northeast.