Liberty has had success, but some of that comes from the fact that they can just out spend their conference peers. If they joined a bigger conference, they would lose that edge.

From a conference's POV, they have to consider what happens if a team doesn't sustain their current football/basketball success after they join. Will they just become a drag on the conference if they're not winning games?

Like the Big 12's additions all have big fan bases, are located in big metro markets (ish, the Provo metro has about 500k, but it's also only 40 miles from Salt Lake), and have had historical success in both basketball and football, giving you more confidence that they can come back if they do have some down years.

(07-10-2023 12:04 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 11:47 PM)Jhawkinva Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 11:40 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  If they had accomplishments in Football like Boise State then maybe but so far Liberty has not earned even 1 G5 bid to the major bowls.

They don't have nearly enough interest for power conference programs to want them to join.

R1 schools will want absolutely nothing to do with them.

I remember when folks used to say that about UCF, Cincinnati, and Houston. But here's the thing: those folks were wrong , thank goodness!!! UCF, Cincy, and Houston have rebranded themselves successfully, and even though they aren't in a P2, they are in a M3. Thank goodness those presidents and ADs ignored the naysayers and marched to the beat of their own drum.

Arrogance almost destroyed the Big XII, key word here is almost . I wouldn't sleep on Liberty. I think thry are destined for great things in the future.

The Big XII lost 6 members over a decade. They were desperate. They had to add someone. They werent adding other Power conference teams, now where they? Florida St, Clemson or Notre Dame werent coming down.

(07-09-2023 11:40 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  If they had accomplishments in Football like Boise State then maybe but so far Liberty has not earned even 1 G5 bid to the major bowls.

Recent wins over VA Tech, Baylor, Arkansas, BYU. As an Independent they didn't have access to many bowl match ups.

No. They are not good academically, and lack a history of success in FB and BB. It's not like private church controlled schools can't be part of a hypothetical breakaway, but they've gotta have the athletics and at least a pulse academically (e.g., UND, very possibly Baylor or BYU meet thresholds, depending upon size of hypothetical breakaway). If they up their academic game substantially, make a few sweet sixteens and a NY6/playoff spot or two, over the next decade, then maybe a back filling B12 or a rump ACC (having lost all/most of it's state flagships/landgrants) grabs them. Otherwise AAC is probably the best invite they can muster.

(07-10-2023 09:29 AM)gwelymernans Wrote:  No. They are not good academically, and lack a history of success in FB and BB. It's not like private church controlled schools can't be part of a hypothetical breakaway, but they've gotta have the athletics and at least a pulse academically (e.g., UND, very possibly Baylor or BYU meet thresholds, depending upon size of hypothetical breakaway). If they up their academic game substantially, make a few sweet sixteens and a NY6/playoff spot or two, over the next decade, then maybe a back filling B12 or a rump ACC (having lost all/most of it's state flagships/landgrants) grabs them. Otherwise AAC is probably the best invite they can muster.

When you say breakaway, do you mean starting an entirely new NCAA-like org? Or a Super FBS/FBS sort of breakaway that makes another FBS subdivision. If it's the Super FBS sub, they will make higher requirements to be a part of it from the get-go and probably have to be invited to Super FBS after the initial formation. Not sure what those requirements would be, but if money can solve it, LU will be okay. Many G5s should be worried if a Super FBS is created. A complete breakaway into a completely new organization is the least likely to happen in modern times. The NCAA takes care of many legal and admin-type stuff that would cost a fortune. And if the new org is about making more money, that would be counterproductive to achieving that goal.

(07-10-2023 09:53 AM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 09:29 AM)gwelymernans Wrote:  No. They are not good academically, and lack a history of success in FB and BB. It's not like private church controlled schools can't be part of a hypothetical breakaway, but they've gotta have the athletics and at least a pulse academically (e.g., UND, very possibly Baylor or BYU meet thresholds, depending upon size of hypothetical breakaway). If they up their academic game substantially, make a few sweet sixteens and a NY6/playoff spot or two, over the next decade, then maybe a back filling B12 or a rump ACC (having lost all/most of it's state flagships/landgrants) grabs them. Otherwise AAC is probably the best invite they can muster.

When you say breakaway, do you mean starting an entirely new NCAA-like org? Or a Super FBS/FBS sort of breakaway that makes another FBS subdivision. If it's the Super FBS sub, they will make higher requirements to be a part of it from the get-go and probably have to be invited to Super FBS after the initial formation. Not sure what those requirements would be, but if money can solve it, LU will be okay. Many G5s should be worried if a Super FBS is created. A complete breakaway into a completely new organization is the least likely to happen in modern times. The NCAA takes care of many legal and admin-type stuff that would cost a fortune. And if the new org is about making more money, that would be counterproductive to achieving that goal.

I mean either a new league seperate from the NCAA or to create a division between G5 and P5 w/in the NCAA. Or say, a little more raiding goes on and the most valuable schools are consolidated, the B1G and SEC agree to only play each other OOC, aside from the playoff. I get that Liberty has the money, but that likely means a few seasons in CUSA, then a move to the AAC for a few years, then to a M3 conference. The B1G/SEC are both so full of landgrants/flagships/research schools that ND/Duke/Stanford/Miami are about the only privates that will likely be considered for addition.

If you are asking today if Liberty is a good candidate for a breakaway that includes the top 60-80 schools in FBS, I would say no. Frankly it's academic ranking is just awful compared to other P2/M3 schools and it's athletic achievements are not very impressive to date either.

Now maybe 20 years from now, if they can work to get their academic rep at least to the Louisville/WV/TT level, coupled with a few NY6/playoff level wins in football, then maybe they might be considered.

(07-10-2023 08:42 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Liberty has had success, but some of that comes from the fact that they can just out spend their conference peers. If they joined a bigger conference, they would lose that edge.

From a conference's POV, they have to consider what happens if a team doesn't sustain their current football/basketball success after they join. Will they just become a drag on the conference if they're not winning games?

Like the Big 12's additions all have big fan bases, are located in big metro markets (ish, the Provo metro has about 500k, but it's also only 40 miles from Salt Lake), and have had historical success in both basketball and football, giving you more confidence that they can come back if they do have some down years.

BYU is its own market, their strength doesn't come from the physical location of the campus. Think "smaller ND" instead of "bigger Fresno St".

(07-10-2023 09:29 AM)gwelymernans Wrote:  No. They are not good academically, and lack a history of success in FB and BB. It's not like private church controlled schools can't be part of a hypothetical breakaway, but they've gotta have the athletics and at least a pulse academically (e.g., UND, very possibly Baylor or BYU meet thresholds, depending upon size of hypothetical breakaway). If they up their academic game substantially, make a few sweet sixteens and a NY6/playoff spot or two, over the next decade, then maybe a back filling B12 or a rump ACC (having lost all/most of it's state flagships/landgrants) grabs them. Otherwise AAC is probably the best invite they can muster.

That's a good standard. ND is probably out of reach, but can they get to a Baylor/BYU level Academically and financially? With such a large endowment, it's pretty surprising that they haven't been able to grow their Academic Brand. BYU has an average SAT of 1315, Baylor's is 1293. Liberty? 1065. Perhaps if Liberty reaches out and finds someone not due to his/her family ties but rather an actually elite college administrator who is also a devout Southern Baptist (I'm sure there are many out there), they'll be able to take further steps down this road. Or, they can just keep doing what they're doing, and keep wallowing in mediocrity while the UCFs, BYUs and Baylors of the world get to enjoy the glory of P5 sports.

Such a strange question.

It took the near-death of C-USA for Liberty to find a home in *any* FBS conference because they’re considered to be so radioactive.

The power conferences (or more importantly, the administrators of the schools that are members of those power conferences) want nothing to do with Liberty no matter how much money and resources they might have.

No.

(07-10-2023 09:29 AM)gwelymernans Wrote:  It's not like private church controlled schools can't be part of a hypothetical breakaway, but they've gotta have the athletics and at least a pulse academically (e.g., UND, very possibly Baylor or BYU meet thresholds, depending upon size of hypothetical breakaway).

The only one of these schools that is "church controlled" is BYU.

I will take it a step further: no church-controlled university will be part of any breakaway.

(07-10-2023 12:04 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 11:47 PM)Jhawkinva Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 11:40 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  If they had accomplishments in Football like Boise State then maybe but so far Liberty has not earned even 1 G5 bid to the major bowls.

They don't have nearly enough interest for power conference programs to want them to join.

R1 schools will want absolutely nothing to do with them.

I remember when folks used to say that about UCF, Cincinnati, and Houston. But here's the thing: those folks were wrong , thank goodness!!! UCF, Cincy, and Houston have rebranded themselves successfully, and even though they aren't in a P2, they are in a M3. Thank goodness those presidents and ADs ignored the naysayers and marched to the beat of their own drum.

Arrogance almost destroyed the Big XII, key word here is almost . I wouldn't sleep on Liberty. I think thry are destined for great things in the future.

LOL comparing Houston, UCF and Cincy with Liberty.

If FBS breaks away then yes they would be part of a breakaway. If you mean P2 then no.

(07-10-2023 11:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Such a strange question.

It took the near-death of C-USA for Liberty to find a home in *any* FBS conference because they’re considered to be so radioactive.

The power conferences (or more importantly, the administrators of the schools that are members of those power conferences) want nothing to do with Liberty no matter how much money and resources they might have.

'So radioactive' is such a vague, subject to individual interpretation, statement.

FBS schools will play them. They have beat several recently. They have made and won bowl games having only recently moved to FBS from FCS. This shouldn't happen if you are 'radioactive'. Or is it okay to play them... but not share a conference with them? THAT is what I find 'strange'. And no matter what the circumstances, they are in an FBS conference.

(07-10-2023 01:36 PM)Bull Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 11:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Such a strange question.

It took the near-death of C-USA for Liberty to find a home in *any* FBS conference because they’re considered to be so radioactive.

The power conferences (or more importantly, the administrators of the schools that are members of those power conferences) want nothing to do with Liberty no matter how much money and resources they might have.

'So radioactive' is such a vague, subject to individual interpretation, statement.

FBS schools will play them. They have beat several recently. They have made and won bowl games having only recently moved to FBS from FCS. This shouldn't happen if you are 'radioactive'. Or is it okay to play them... but not share a conference with them? THAT is what I find 'strange'. And no matter what the circumstances, they are in an FBS conference.

I don’t see a disconnect there.

A non-conference game is going out to lunch with someone that is one-and-done.

A conference invitation is *marrying* someone where resources are shared, lives are intertwined, etc.

And do we really need to spell out the reasons here why Liberty has been radioactive for conference realignment purposes? I guess I’ll just have to state the obvious: the vast majority of university presidents completely abhor Liberty’s social and political positions and the use of the school’s resources to advance such positions. Hence, it took C-USA needing warm FBS bodies simply to survive before Liberty ever received an FBS invite despite all of their financial resources. Whether one personally believes that Liberty *should* be radioactive on that basis is a subjective debate. However, I think it’s pretty objective that the other university presidents (particularly at the top levels of academia, which includes much of the P5) think that way, whether one personally agrees with them or not. If people can’t see that or don’t want to believe it, then I don’t know what to tell you.

No. But they would not be barred from it, nor would anyone else.

A "breakaway" is mostly about control of distributions. The power schools want to end the subsidy system of the NCAA and want to maximize the money from the championship tournaments.

You guys keep thinking in terms of a new NCAA, which is not how a breakaway would work. Think instead of an AAU type sanctioning body where members pay dues but get zero dollars in distributions. Championship tournaments would be invitationals like the original NIT, run by whomever sets it up. There would be no restrictions on anyone setting up a rival tournament.

My WAG is the SEC and B1G would form corporations for a football tournament in place of the NCAA CFP and for a basketball tournament to replace the NCAA March Madness. Clearly the Big 12 wants to be included as an equity partner, even minority share (which is likely all they'd get) in such a tournament corporation, so would leverage their participation in exchange for that. The ACC (possibly Big East) would likely go along with the Big 12 in that pursuit. All profits from such a tournament would be distributed only to equity partners.

But anyone would be free to participate and would receive appearance and prize money. No exclusions. Likely an independent committee, just like the NCAA does now for CFP and March Madness, would be formed to select schools to be given invitations, no doubt with some slots reserved for equity partners. This would be necessary to crown a legitimate champion, something they need to be able to maximize media dollars.

If the schools withdraw from the NCAA entirely, they would likely set up a sanctioning body which has zero distributions, doesn't run tournaments or receive any money from them. Instead they would collect annual dues. They would cover the legal side of things and set up common rules. Members within their conferences can of course modify rules as they see fit. But for sanctioned tournaments would have to meet rule requirements.

Note, there is no reason to restrict invitational tournament participation to members of the sanctioning body. Any school willing to comply with the rules, even if still sanctioned by the NCAA would be free to participate if they want. And any group of schools or others are free to set up tournaments of their own and invite others.

The entire concept is to separate the legal and sanctioning from the money handling. This gets the sanctioning body completely out of the game of gate keeping. Economics alone will decide if a school competes or not. No subsidies, no sanctioning body distributions.

(07-10-2023 02:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 01:36 PM)Bull Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 11:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Such a strange question.

It took the near-death of C-USA for Liberty to find a home in *any* FBS conference because they’re considered to be so radioactive.

The power conferences (or more importantly, the administrators of the schools that are members of those power conferences) want nothing to do with Liberty no matter how much money and resources they might have.

'So radioactive' is such a vague, subject to individual interpretation, statement.

FBS schools will play them. They have beat several recently. They have made and won bowl games having only recently moved to FBS from FCS. This shouldn't happen if you are 'radioactive'. Or is it okay to play them... but not share a conference with them? THAT is what I find 'strange'. And no matter what the circumstances, they are in an FBS conference.

I don’t see a disconnect there.

A non-conference game is going out to lunch with someone that is one-and-done.

A conference invitation is *marrying* someone where resources are shared, lives are intertwined, etc.

And do we really need to spell out the reasons here why Liberty has been radioactive for conference realignment purposes? I guess I’ll just have to state the obvious: the vast majority of university presidents completely abhor Liberty’s social and political positions and the use of the school’s resources to advance such positions. Hence, it took C-USA needing warm FBS bodies simply to survive before Liberty ever received an FBS invite despite all of their financial resources. Whether one personally believes that Liberty *should* be radioactive on that basis is a subjective debate. However, I think it’s pretty objective that the other university presidents (particularly at the top levels of academia, which includes much of the P5) think that way, whether one personally agrees with them or not. If people can’t see that or don’t want to believe it, then I don’t know what to tell you.

I would suggest your marriage analogy is somewhat flawed. My point is, a team is SO distasteful (for the reasons you imply) that we cannot be in a conference with them... where all we really do is play sports... (these are athletic conferences after all...) but it's okay (when there are more than 120 teams in FBS to choose from) to invite them to our stadium, or visit theirs... where we will appear on TV playing together and make money together... THAT is what I find strange.

(07-10-2023 11:11 AM)goofus Wrote:  If you are asking today if Liberty is a good candidate for a breakaway that includes the top 60-80 schools in FBS, I would say no. Frankly it's academic ranking is just awful compared to other P2/M3 schools and it's athletic achievements are not very impressive to date either.

Now maybe 20 years from now, if they can work to get their academic rep at least to the Louisville/WV/TT level, coupled with a few NY6/playoff level wins in football, then maybe they might be considered.

Well its not really academics. Its the fact that they have a very different model, heavily dependent on their online classes. The powers that be fear them and want nothing to do with them. "They aren't like us." They also don't like their brand of religion.

Of course if all of FBS breaks away they are in, but if its only 5-7 conferences, no.

(07-10-2023 02:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 01:36 PM)Bull Wrote:  

(07-10-2023 11:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Such a strange question.

It took the near-death of C-USA for Liberty to find a home in *any* FBS conference because they’re considered to be so radioactive.

The power conferences (or more importantly, the administrators of the schools that are members of those power conferences) want nothing to do with Liberty no matter how much money and resources they might have.

'So radioactive' is such a vague, subject to individual interpretation, statement.

FBS schools will play them. They have beat several recently. They have made and won bowl games having only recently moved to FBS from FCS. This shouldn't happen if you are 'radioactive'. Or is it okay to play them... but not share a conference with them? THAT is what I find 'strange'. And no matter what the circumstances, they are in an FBS conference.

I don’t see a disconnect there.

A non-conference game is going out to lunch with someone that is one-and-done.

A conference invitation is *marrying* someone where resources are shared, lives are intertwined, etc.

And do we really need to spell out the reasons here why Liberty has been radioactive for conference realignment purposes? I guess I’ll just have to state the obvious: the vast majority of university presidents completely abhor Liberty’s social and political positions and the use of the school’s resources to advance such positions. Hence, it took C-USA needing warm FBS bodies simply to survive before Liberty ever received an FBS invite despite all of their financial resources. Whether one personally believes that Liberty *should* be radioactive on that basis is a subjective debate. However, I think it’s pretty objective that the other university presidents (particularly at the top levels of academia, which includes much of the P5) think that way, whether one personally agrees with them or not. If people can’t see that or don’t want to believe it, then I don’t know what to tell you.

As I said, in my other post, I think their online model is a bigger objection than the religious/political objections.