(07-07-2023 04:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Republicans need to drop the "2020 and 2022 were stolen" rhetoric, and take care of business. Maybe there were places where things were stolen, they either have to fix those or win despite them. But regardless, they have to figure out a way to win. I don't think Donald Trump is that way. I know that Donald Trump complaining about how things were stolen is absolutely not the way.

The way for republicans to win is to make it about issues, not personalities. And Donald Trump will always be about personalities. But first they need to find some winning issue positions. And absolute opposition to abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights aren't them.

They can win on health care by backing Bismarck universal care instead of the disaster that is Obamacare. Health care was a winning issue in 2016 until they had control of all three houses--senate, HOR, and white--and did nothing. They can make it a winner in 2024, but this time they need an actual concrete solution. And the best health care systems in the world, by almost any objective ranking, seems a pretty good place to start. Heritage gave them a nudge in that direction in the 1990s, but 30 years later they still haven't taken the hint.

Border security could be a winning issue. But I still don't think a wall works along the Rio Grande. You have to build it on the Texas side, and so by the time an immigrant gets to the wall, he/she is already on US soil and entitled to all the rights and privileges that go with that. Until we have a comprehensive immigration law, that's a huge problem. So build the wall along California, Arizona, and New Mexico, go with Will Hurd's idea of stepped up enforcement including electronic sensors to build a virtual wall along the Texas border, and put a comprehensive immigration policy in place. The Canadian points-based merit system would be a huge improvement.

The leftists have gone absolutely crazy over climate change. It makes zero sense to move from fossil fuels until we have something to move to, and right now we don't have that. Come up with practical ways to reduce carbon emissions, recognizing that the only way to achieve a significant reduction with current technology is nuclear. Wind and solar work where the wind blows and the sun shines (Texas, for example), but not in most of the northern interior. Re-electrifying the rail system, with power from nuke plants, would be one approach that would significantly reduce greenhouse gases.

The military is fast making itself into a woke joke. Commit to having the strongest military in the world, bar none, for less than we are spending now, and get rid of things that don't contribute to that objective. And then never have to use it, because nobody dares pick a fight with us, and we don't go around picking on them. Never fight a war that you don't intend to win. Chasing goat herders in pickup trucks around the MidEast is not fighting a war that we intend to win, and it is actually harming our military strength by sacrificing lives, limbs, and equipment, while creating a false sense of what it takes to fight a peer enemy.

We are in Cold War II, and this time the enemy is China, not Russia. We need a strategy to win. Part of that involves stronger military, part of that involves bringing critical manufacturing home, part of that is building alliances to stop Chinese expansion, like Truman and Marshall did with Europe after WWII.

I said that abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights are not winners. They can be if the focus is on the absolutely loony positions of the far left. Live birth abortions are not justified in any event. Trans people say they just want to be left alone, but pronouns and bathrooms aren't being left alone, they are forcing their preferences on the rest of us.

Those and others are enough winners there for republicans to prevail. But they need to be honest with themselves and form a plan that can win with the cards they are dealt. And Donald Trump is a problem.

I pray with all my heart I'm wrong about this Owl, but I fear that this extremely thoughtful and reasonable logic is totally outdated and is really a denial of reality in 2023.

For all our lives (both mine and yours) this is the right approach and logic you have to apply, this is how you retake the WH and course correct the country. But that world is just gone and its never coming back.

We now live in a country with no media whatsoever, no truth whatsoever, no moderation whatsoever, no majority of thoughtful adults whatsoever and now have a greatly confused, deceived and spiritually overwhelmed society.

We now live in a world where the entire media is nothing but a giant PR misinformation machine for the left with ZERO moderation and truth telling whatsoever. The media are some of the most radical people in the country along with most of the under 35 crowd. They have totally sold their souls to Marxism and globalism and hate middle America (particularly the Boomers and Gen X) more than anything on this earth.

I know its not really how you and others want to frame it, but the reality is this is a spiritual civil war, and the Marxist globalist left really have already won.

All that's left to really battle for is the speed of our fall, its too late late to stop the fall itself.

Again, I pray I am wrong but I fear there is no stopping it and its much later in the game than most reasonable people of the older generation even realize yet. History teaches us over and over again that people often do not realize how far down the road they were when the end of a democracy or empire comes.

I think the enemy knows though that they already have the victory and its just a matter of time.

Again, I pray with all my heart I'm wrong, but I fear that is foolish and wishful thinking.

(07-07-2023 03:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Republicans cannot win with Trump, and they cannot win without him. And the country cannot afford four more years of what we have now. So pray.

Republicans have won with Trump. Hell the second election was stolen. 81 million votes? Not a chance.

Never Trumpers are the problem. They are this generations Perot tards. Dont vote for trump, vote against the filth. Its that simple. Yellow dog all the way.

But yeah the filth are screwed, they will cut their own throats

I just about dont give a shite anymore. I will be fine. Truth be known, i will make more money if the filth win.

I’m still tickled by the ‘Koch == globalist’ comment….

I’ll vote for ANY candidate of ANY party who agrees to destroy the 4th branch of government. We need to decentralize government out of DC. We’ve allowed to NGO’s with non elected leaders to have too much power.

I laugh watching Republicans and Democrats argue about candidates. They’re different sides of the same coin.

You’re arguing over the scraps from the table of the elites.

The president has no power. He’s a figure head. They can be bought to influence but they don’t make policy.

YOUR government is the enemy, not your fellow liberals or conservatives.

There needs to be a real insurrection. Pissed off Americans need to march on Washington from every state in the Nation. We need a bipartisan show of strength.

It will never happen because DC Republicans and Democrats are all too fat and happy while the country burns.

(07-06-2023 10:08 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 09:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 09:26 PM)TripleA Wrote:  I'm all for stopping Trump from winning the GOP nom. Problem is what do he and his voters do next? 3rd party? Sit out?

Honestly, I think the old senile lying corrupt basturd has his path paved with gold again, either way, even without cheating. Which puts this country in a terrible bind, IMO. Of course, I will be 81 before Biden or his surrogate finishes the next term. Thank goodness.

It would suck a lot worse if I were 20.

P.S. The Koch brothers are no more. David died a few years ago.

That's why you can't go scorched earth. You talk about getting the job done.
You echo some of his complaints. And point out how he did a bunch of whining but let it happen anyway.

Agree. I just don't see how anybody not named Trump can win the GOP nom, even though anybody not named Trump can likely beat Biden, but Trump can't. Catch 22.

I think there is a massive overestimation of Trump's weaknesses in a general and a massive overestimation of DeSantis' strengths in a general. DeSantis is a standard issue GOP politician who trying to cynically posture like he's Trump. Where they have policy differences Trump actually holds the far more "moderate" positions and Trump actually has an amazing sense of where the general public sits on an issue vs where the GOP base/donor is. Trump is far closer to where independent/swing voters reside on SS/Medicare, abortion, the War in Ukraine, and a host of other issues. `

I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

I think Trump can win in the general. Politics in America seems to swing back and forth sometimes wildly. Hillary was a shoe in and 16. Nobody thought Trump would win. But he did. Now go to 20 and the Democrats won by taking advantage of Covid. now we’re looking at 24 and many Republicans are demoralized thinking that 20 will repeat itself again. I think the Republicans are not going to be caught with her panties down in 24.

(07-07-2023 08:54 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

In other words, how many of you are idiots? I daresay, more than a few sir, more than a few.

(07-07-2023 08:58 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I think Trump can win in the general. Politics in America seems to swing back and forth sometimes wildly. Hillary was a shoe in and 16. Nobody thought Trump would win. But he did. Now go to 20 and the Democrats won by taking advantage of Covid. now we’re looking at 24 and many Republicans are demoralized thinking that 20 will repeat itself again. I think the Republicans are not going to be caught with her panties down in 24.

HoD, UTSAMarineVet09, and nuts zongo would disagree with the bold text … muh 300.00 that won 1440.00 is nuts’ receipt that began with “don’t underestimate the Donald…”

nuts only got ‘20 wrong due to underestimating the donks’ ability to ballot harvest … ‘22 proved ‘20…

#neverAgain @>270EVsBlueBakedInn(151) ... (AM)

(07-06-2023 08:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 08:14 PM)banker Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 07:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Problem is that the 60 percent or so of republican voters that Trump can get are the only votes he can get in a general. And that won't win.

I would still argue that Trump received more legitimate votes than any person, running for any office, in the history of the United States. So there’s that.

I'm sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that is going to lose 2024 for republicans. I'm not saying there was no cheating in 2020. There clearly was, as there was nothing to stop it. What I don't know, and neither do you or anyone else because it's impossible to know, is whether that cheating was enough to steal the election. Very possibly in Georgia and Arizona, but Biden still wins without them. Other states, who knows? But Biden winning the popular vote was pretty consistent with both pre-election and exit interview polling.

Trump voters are living in an echo chamber where everyone around them is so strongly pro-Trump that they don't seem able to realize that there are just as many or more voters elsewhere who hate Trump passionately.

Let's say DeSantis is the GOP nominee.

Would he win the general election? The leftist political and media machine has gone to work against him.

And are we sure the Democrats don't have a ballot mechanism in place to swing states in their favor?

(07-06-2023 09:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 08:14 PM)banker Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 07:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Problem is that the 60 percent or so of republican voters that Trump can get are the only votes he can get in a general. And that won't win.

I would still argue that Trump received more legitimate votes than any person, running for any office, in the history of the United States. So there’s that.

I wish DeSantis wasn’t just another corporate RINO employing a modified persona, but he is. He’s essentially John McCain doing a Trump impersonation to try to win the presidency. I can’t support that.

Biden didn't get 7 million illegal votes. At least 40,000 in WI, AZ and GA, yes I'm pretty sure of that. 1 million overall, maybe. But the fact is that Trump generated big turnout among Democrats as well as Republicans.

All it takes is a few thousand manufactured votes in 3-4 key states and the election is stolen.

Did that happen in 2020? I don't know definitively one way or the other, but I can look at several different circumstances that all happened at the same time. I understand probabilities enough to realize there was more influence involved than chance.

(07-07-2023 08:54 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

Nope. But, we have a situation where people get big mad at even the thought someone might not vote for Trump in the general. But, when people in some of the DeSantis threads said they wouldn't vote for DeSantis if he wins no one had an issue. That kind of reverence is only reserved for Trump hence the cult of personality.

Trump himself "tweeted" on Truth social an article about how if DeSantis won the primary he should run third party.

Think about it for a second. I'm sure if DeSantis tweeted something about how he should run third party if Trump wins that the same people that defend Trump here day in and day out would be throwing a fit. And this time rightly so. But, Trump can drop major hints about running third party and handing the election on a silver platter to the dems and no one bats an eye. The anger would only be reserved for DeSantis.

There is only one candidate that is trying to break up the status quo.

I'm voting for that dude, no matter the other flaws.

(07-07-2023 09:00 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(07-07-2023 08:54 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

In other words, how many of you are idiots? I daresay, more than a few sir, more than a few.

I know one. For sure.

(07-07-2023 10:07 AM)Eagleyed Wrote:  

(07-07-2023 08:54 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

Nope. But, we have a situation where people get big mad at even the thought someone might not vote for Trump in the general. But, when people in some of the DeSantis threads said they wouldn't vote for DeSantis if he wins no one had an issue. That kind of reverence is only reserved for Trump hence the cult of personality.

Trump himself "tweeted" on Truth social an article about how if DeSantis won the primary he should run third party.

Think about it for a second. I'm sure if DeSantis tweeted something about how he should run third party if Trump wins that the same people that defend Trump here day in and day out would be throwing a fit. And this time rightly so. But, Trump can drop major hints about running third party and handing the election on a silver platter to the dems and no one bats an eye. The anger would only be reserved for DeSantis.

When did he do that. Frick him if he does.

Eye batted right here.

(07-07-2023 09:49 AM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 08:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 08:14 PM)banker Wrote:  

(07-06-2023 07:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Problem is that the 60 percent or so of republican voters that Trump can get are the only votes he can get in a general. And that won't win.

I would still argue that Trump received more legitimate votes than any person, running for any office, in the history of the United States. So there’s that.

I'm sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that is going to lose 2024 for republicans. I'm not saying there was no cheating in 2020. There clearly was, as there was nothing to stop it. What I don't know, and neither do you or anyone else because it's impossible to know, is whether that cheating was enough to steal the election. Very possibly in Georgia and Arizona, but Biden still wins without them. Other states, who knows? But Biden winning the popular vote was pretty consistent with both pre-election and exit interview polling.

Trump voters are living in an echo chamber where everyone around them is so strongly pro-Trump that they don't seem able to realize that there are just as many or more voters elsewhere who hate Trump passionately.

Let's say DeSantis is the GOP nominee.

Would he win the general election? The leftist political and media machine has gone to work against him.

And are we sure the Democrats don't have a ballot mechanism in place to swing states in their favor?

The way this has to work and will work is whomever is the GOP candidate whether it's Trump or DeSantis or anyone else is that those who competed against the eventual winner, throws support behind them. The GOP needs to be united.

Talk of Trump running 3rd party is asinine. That would do nothing but hand the election to Biden or what Dem is running. I'll reference Ross Perot in the 92 election. He pulled enough GHWB supporters to give Clinton the election.

Honestly I think the Trump opposers have had enough of President Daisy that they wouldn't think about pulling the lever for him again. I could be wrong.

Here is a direct link to the article referenced.

Quote:Koch Network Raises Over $70 Million for Push to Sink Trump
Americans for Prosperity Action is wading into a Republican presidential primary for the first time, and waiting to see which candidate it will get behind for 2024.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/us/po...-2024.html

(07-07-2023 04:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Republicans need to drop the "2020 and 2022 were stolen" rhetoric, and take care of business. Maybe there were places where things were stolen, they either have to fix those or win despite them. But regardless, they have to figure out a way to win. I don't think Donald Trump is that way. I know that Donald Trump complaining about how things were stolen is absolutely not the way.

The way for republicans to win is to make it about issues, not personalities. And Donald Trump will always be about personalities. But first they need to find some winning issue positions. And absolute opposition to abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights aren't them.

They can win on health care by backing Bismarck universal care instead of the disaster that is Obamacare. Health care was a winning issue in 2016 until they had control of all three houses--senate, HOR, and white--and did nothing. They can make it a winner in 2024, but this time they need an actual concrete solution. And the best health care systems in the world, by almost any objective ranking, seems a pretty good place to start. Heritage gave them a nudge in that direction in the 1990s, but 30 years later they still haven't taken the hint.

Border security could be a winning issue. But I still don't think a wall works along the Rio Grande. You have to build it on the Texas side, and so by the time an immigrant gets to the wall, he/she is already on US soil and entitled to all the rights and privileges that go with that. Until we have a comprehensive immigration law, that's a huge problem. So build the wall along California, Arizona, and New Mexico, go with Will Hurd's idea of stepped up enforcement including electronic sensors to build a virtual wall along the Texas border, and put a comprehensive immigration policy in place. The Canadian points-based merit system would be a huge improvement.

The leftists have gone absolutely crazy over climate change. It makes zero sense to move from fossil fuels until we have something to move to, and right now we don't have that. Come up with practical ways to reduce carbon emissions, recognizing that the only way to achieve a significant reduction with current technology is nuclear. Wind and solar work where the wind blows and the sun shines (Texas, for example), but not in most of the northern interior. Re-electrifying the rail system, with power from nuke plants, would be one approach that would significantly reduce greenhouse gases.

The military is fast making itself into a woke joke. Commit to having the strongest military in the world, bar none, for less than we are spending now, and get rid of things that don't contribute to that objective. And then never have to use it, because nobody dares pick a fight with us, and we don't go around picking on them. Never fight a war that you don't intend to win. Chasing goat herders in pickup trucks around the MidEast is not fighting a war that we intend to win, and it is actually harming our military strength by sacrificing lives, limbs, and equipment, while creating a false sense of what it takes to fight a peer enemy.

We are in Cold War II, and this time the enemy is China, not Russia. We need a strategy to win. Part of that involves stronger military, part of that involves bringing critical manufacturing home, part of that is building alliances to stop Chinese expansion, like Truman and Marshall did with Europe after WWII.

I said that abortion and LGBTQIA+ rights are not winners. They can be if the focus is on the absolutely loony positions of the far left. Live birth abortions are not justified in any event. Trans people say they just want to be left alone, but pronouns and bathrooms aren't being left alone, they are forcing their preferences on the rest of us.

Those and others are enough winners there for republicans to prevail. But they need to be honest with themselves and form a plan that can win with the cards they are dealt. And Donald Trump is a problem.

I'd vote for your version of the GOP, or any party who stood on that platform.

(07-07-2023 10:17 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(07-07-2023 10:07 AM)Eagleyed Wrote:  

(07-07-2023 08:54 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I wonder how many here who are so-called conservatives or Republicans would not vote for Trump in the next election if he is going to be the nominee. And it certainly appears that he will be. Would you go so far as to help the Democrats regain the White House with a vote against Trump or for a third-party?

Nope. But, we have a situation where people get big mad at even the thought someone might not vote for Trump in the general. But, when people in some of the DeSantis threads said they wouldn't vote for DeSantis if he wins no one had an issue. That kind of reverence is only reserved for Trump hence the cult of personality.

Trump himself "tweeted" on Truth social an article about how if DeSantis won the primary he should run third party.

Think about it for a second. I'm sure if DeSantis tweeted something about how he should run third party if Trump wins that the same people that defend Trump here day in and day out would be throwing a fit. And this time rightly so. But, Trump can drop major hints about running third party and handing the election on a silver platter to the dems and no one bats an eye. The anger would only be reserved for DeSantis.

When did he do that. Frick him if he does.

Eye batted right here.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-posts-art...te-1770560