In short, there will be no long term peace in Israel between the Jews and the Palestinians until the Antichrist one world government comes to power and implements a 7 year peace treaty. (Daniel 9)

That is not to say this current war will continue until then, it could still end up in a cease fire and temporary cool off at some future point (looks impossible as of this exact moment). But the end result will be a growing conflict over Israel with Jerusalem becoming a key aspect in the end. At some point, either before or after the final one world government comes to fruition, there will be a new Jewish Temple built and they will worship and conduct sacrifices there according to the Old Testament covenant. It could be built shortly before the antichrist government comes in, or it could be a result of the historic peace treaty that will follow.

They don't yet realize that Jesus is the Lamb of God and only His sacrifice can redeem them to God now, but a remnant of the people will before Christ returns. Indeed Jesus said He will not return until they do accept Him as their Messiah and Savior.


There are many verses that talk about this but here are a few:

Luke 19:41-44

(Jesus speaking to those in Jerusalem a few days before the crucifixion)

41 When He came near, He beheld the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you, even you, had known even today what things would bring you peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you and surround you, and press you in on every side. 44 They will dash you, and your children within you, to the ground. They will not leave one stone upon another within you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (a reference to the coming destruction of 70 AD, because Jesus came and they rejected and hated Him)


Matthew 23:37-39

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you, how often I would have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not! 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. (again speaking of the coming destruction of 70 AD) 39 For I tell you, you shall not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”


And there are OT examples as well:

Hosea 5:14-15

14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, Myself, will tear and go away.
I will carry off, and no one will rescue.
15 I will again return to My place (Jesus ascension back to Heaven in Acts 1)
until they acknowledge their offense and seek My face.
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

At the mid point of this 7 year peace deal between Israel and Islam, the antichrist or his false prophet will declare him to be God in the flesh, the true Messiah and God of all Abrahamic religions. He will enter Jerusalem and the new Jewish Temple, stop the sacrifices, defile the most holy place with an idol of himself and declare himself God and sit his throne in the most holy place (where the veil and ark once sat, the place where God's spirit would dwell)


Daniel 9:27

"And he (antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."


Matthew 24:15 & 21

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."


Mark 13:14, 19-20

14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not," (let him that readeth understand,)

19 "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."


2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Daniel 11:36-37

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that which is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.




There are several other places that give more detail on this such as Revelation 13, Daniel chapters 7 and 8 plus a few others.

The Daniel 11 passage is a perfect example of a dual fulfillment of Bible prophecy, which we see over and over again in the prophets and throughout the Bible. Antiochus Epiphanes would appear to have fulfilled these passages in about 170 BC. He desecrated the Temple with an idol and sacrificed a pig on the altar. But about 200 years later Jesus tells us this is actually a future event taking place in the tribulation.

We see this over and over again in the Bible, where the antichrist or some major event is foreshadowed perfectly centuries before the actual fulfillment.

This is why scripture tells us there is nothing new under the sun, and what happened before is what will happen at the end. If you study and understand the historical accounts in the OT and Gospels, you see they are all types and foreshadowings of what happens at the end.

So in summary the current war is a continuing escalation of the religious war between Israel, Christianity and Islam over Jerusalem and the Holy Land. It will escalate and the pressure will build and build (and Jerusalem will become more and more the central issue) with no resolution in sight with the whole world increasingly becoming caught up in this as peace in the Middle east is key to any possibility of world peace.

The antichrist will be the one man who finally has the answers to this and gets all sides to agree to full peace. Much of the world will marvel at this man who devices the world through "peace and safety" at a time when the whole world is crying our for it more than very before. He will appear to have the answers for all the worlds problems including economic, political, racial, and religious issues and do the impossible by finally bring peace to the middle east between Israel and Islam.

He will have a right hand man , a 'false prophet" who is his spiritual leader and convinces the worlds religions to come together and all worship God as one. He will apparently have supernatural knowledge and powers that the whole world will marvel at. Many may think him some type of a highly advanced extra terrestrial (think ancient aliens). One of those "gods" from antiquity that came down and gave man great knowledge and scientific advancement.

When he actually desecrates the new Jewish temple and declares himself god, Israel will call him a blasphemer and will turn on him. At this point he reacts with fury and vengeance and brings all his armies against Israel and Jews across the earth. A holocaust even worst than Hitler and WW2 will follow (Zechariah suggests up to 2/3rd of Jews worldwide will be killed), and its at this darkest point when the remnant of Jews will finally turn to Jesus and acknowledge Him as their Messiah.

As scripture says he will deceive and destroy many through initial peace and prosperity, which will quickly turn to economic collapse, famine, world war and death. Then in the second half of the tribulation God will pour out his wrath on the antichrists one world kingdom and all who have worshiped him across the earth.

Eric...

Pre, mid, or post trib rapture?

(10-11-2023 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Eric...

Pre, mid, or post trib rapture?

We probably better start a separate thread for that discussion.

I personally lean towards pre trib rapture based on the scripture, but I'm not dogmatic because people divide up so sharply over this topic.

Its almost a political like reaction when it comes to the timing of the rapture.

For me its spiritually immature and silly for us to divide up on something like the exact timing of the rapture. You tell them your position and if its different from their their church then the long knives come out and you are a heretic.

That's CRAZY imo.

Pre trib is the one that seems to really sets people off the most in recent years and get their blood boiling. Though they never seem to be able to give a good scriptural case why, its seems to be more an emotional response.


Its also important to point out that the timing of the rapture has no impact on the things I talked about in the thread.

I could lay out why I lean that way and why I see issues with mid and post if you would like to see where I am coming from and why if you like.

Regardless of you are anyone else's view, its make me no difference. We're brothers in Christ and when its comes it comes.

But I'd be happy to lay out my views on all 3 positions if you are interested.

(10-11-2023 11:17 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Eric...

Pre, mid, or post trib rapture?

We probably better start a separate thread for that discussion.

I personally lean towards pre trib rapture based on the scripture, but I'm not dogmatic because people divide up so sharply over this topic.

Its almost a political like reaction when it comes to the timing of the rapture.

For me its spiritually immature and silly for us to divide up on something like the exact timing of the rapture. You tell them your position and if its different from their their church then the long knives come out and you are a heretic.

That's CRAZY imo.

Pre trib is the one that seems to really sets people off the most in recent years and get their blood boiling. Through they never seem to be able to give a good scripture case why, its seems to be more and an emotional response.


Its also important to point out that the timing of the rapture has no impact on the things I talked about in the thread.

I agree with everything in your reply. Was just curious what view you hold.

Personally, I am not dogmatic on this topic. I can see Pre or Mid being very plausible, based on Scripture. Post, not as much.

Differing views are held at our Church, even among the Elders. They also agree that it's not a point on which we should divide.

(10-11-2023 11:22 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I could lay out why I lean that way and why I see issues with mid and post if you would like to see where I am coming from and why if you like.

Regardless of you are anyone else's view, its make me no difference. We're brothers in Christ and when its comes it comes.

But I'd be happy to lay out my views on all 3 positions if you are interested.

Sure. At your leisure.

(10-11-2023 11:23 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 11:17 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(10-11-2023 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Eric...

Pre, mid, or post trib rapture?

We probably better start a separate thread for that discussion.

I personally lean towards pre trib rapture based on the scripture, but I'm not dogmatic because people divide up so sharply over this topic.

Its almost a political like reaction when it comes to the timing of the rapture.

For me its spiritually immature and silly for us to divide up on something like the exact timing of the rapture. You tell them your position and if its different from their their church then the long knives come out and you are a heretic.

That's CRAZY imo.

Pre trib is the one that seems to really sets people off the most in recent years and get their blood boiling. Through they never seem to be able to give a good scripture case why, its seems to be more and an emotional response.


Its also important to point out that the timing of the rapture has no impact on the things I talked about in the thread.

I agree with everything in your reply. Was just curious what view you hold.

Personally, I am not dogmatic on this topic. I can see Pre or Mid being very plausible, based on Scripture. Post, not as much.

Differing views are held at our Church, even among the Elders. They also agree that it's not a point on which we should divide.

Post trib is the one I have the most objections too as well because it just causes so many contradictions on the millennial reign and other stuff. How do you even have a millennial reign as written if there is a post trib rapture? That leaves no one for us to reign over on the earth, and that is one of the key promises of the 1000 year reign. The Saints reign over the nations for 1000 years alongside Christ.

The rapture is the resurrection of the dead in Christ and there is no mention of a resurrection in ANY of the 2nd coming passages. Its not in Matt 24, or Mark 13, or Luke 21, or Zechariah 14 or Revelation 19.

In fact the church is shown as coming WITH Jesus at the 2nd coming in Revelation 19. In Rev 19 the bride is now called WIFE (already married) and already with Jesus before He ever exists heaven.

I'll lay out a few posts on it today.

One of the most common false things I hear said today about the rapture is that pre trib was made up by Darby in the 1800's. That is such an easily debunkable lie yet I hear this said over and over again these days. You can spend 3 minutes googling this and see its not true, but yet people keep saying it. I don't think people really do their homework on this topic, they just go with whatever their church says and whatever sounds good.

Here is a vid I used to share on this that I had forgotten about until today. I'm actually preparing a huge presentation on eschatology and evidence for the Bible for this November I will be giving multiple times, so I guess its is as good a time as any to share some of this here. It will give me some quick references and links for my presentation anyway.

Here is the vid:

One of the stronger evidences I don't hear people bring up much for pre trib is the 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5. The 24 Elders are a symbolic reference of the raptured chruch and we can tell that by what they say about themselves. Furthermore the text shows them in heaven, already crowned, already wearing robes and already sitting on thrones BEFORE the first seal is ever broken.

They sing this song in Revelation 5 that when you unpack it actually gives a tremendous amount of information on who they are.

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Based on the text in Rev 4 and 5 we can compare who the 24 Elders are with the promises to the Church:


The 24 Elders:

1- Redeemed by the Blood of Jesus (Rev 5:9)
2- wearing crowns (Rev 4:4)
3- wearing white Robes of Righteousness (Rev 4:4)
4- are from all peoples, nations and languages of the earth (Rev 5:9)
5- are made Kings and priest (Rev 5:10)
6- are to Reign with Christ over the earth (Rev 5:10)

The Church :

1- Redeemed by the Blood of Jesus (1 Peter 1:19, Eph 1:7, Rev 1:5)
2- Promised crowns (James 1:12, 1 Peter 1:5, Rev 3:11)
3- Promised White Robes of Righteousness (Rev 3:5)
4- are from all peoples, nations and languages of the earth (Matt 24:14, Matt 28:19, Mark 13:10)
5- are to be Kings and priest (1 Peter 2:9 Rev 1:6)
6- are to Reign with Christ over the earth (Rev 2:26-27, Rev 3:21, Matt 19:28)

The Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ. There is no other person or group in the entire bible that can fit ALL these requirements according to the text. There will also be tribulation saints that will also partake in these promises following the 2nd coming, but the 24 Elders represent those taken BEFORE the first seal is broken (Raptured) Rev 3:10, Luke 21:36, Zephaniah 2:1-3, Psalm 91:1, Psalm 27:5, Psalm 31:20

Just a few of the most blatant and obvious pre trib rapture verses in the bible:

Luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We even see a promise to keep one of the 7 churches out of the tribulation If they repent.

Rev 2:22

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Zephaniah 2:1-3

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Here is another key passage in 2 Thessalonians. Paul is saying that the tribulation does not really begin until the Antichrist is revealed, which is the first seal that Jesus breaks in Revelation. He explains that the antichrist is already active but restrained by the Restrainer (Holy Spirit), and will be until the restrainer is removed. Paul also writes that we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30, 1:13), and that we are the Temple of God today and that he dwells within us (1 Cor 3:16).

So its the church and true believers that restrain him because we are the temple of God the Holy Spirit dwells in today, and we have to be removed for him to be revealed because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption.


2 Thessalonians 2:2-8

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Psalm 27:4-5
4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.


Psalm 31:20
Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.


Isaiah 26:19-20
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.


John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.