(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  and my opinion of Biden is clear.

Yes it is. I wonder how many people who share your opinion of him will vote for him in 2024 if his opponent is Trump. (not asking you, of course).

My opinion of Biden politically has always been negative. He champions the wrong issues, IMO.

But now my opinion of him personally has plummeted.

I would vote against him if he was running unopposed.

I used to think he was just an empty suit with a nice smile.

Now I think he is worse than that.

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

No, I don't really know the family... but I'm still entitled to apply common sense and decency to them. At the very least, Hunter and/or the grandparents should have set up a trust for the child for ANY health needs, college etc.

(05-03-2023 12:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

Except that I've said 1000 times here that I DON'T support Biden and that I will only consider voting for him if the other option is Trump.

But otherwise, sure... perhaps I have to support Biden.

(05-03-2023 12:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

Except that I've said 1000 times here that I DON'T support Biden and that I will only consider voting for him if the other option is Trump.

But otherwise, sure... perhaps I have to support Biden.

2024 is shaping up to be the election where people come out to vote for the politician they consider the second worst.


Except for me, Biden Harris is both first and second worst.

My #1 choice has yet to announce. Same with all but one of my top ten.

(05-03-2023 12:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

Except that I've said 1000 times here that I DON'T support Biden and that I will only consider voting for him if the other option is Trump.

But otherwise, sure... perhaps I have to support Biden.

2024 is shaping up to be the election where people come out to vote for the politician they consider the second worst.


Except for me, Biden Harris is both first and second worst.

My #1 choice has yet to announce. Same with all but one of my top ten.

Not that I think this would ever happen but how would you guys vote in 2024 with 3 choices:

Biden (D)
Trump ®
Musk (I)

I think I'd have to go Musk. Not that I think this would be good.

(05-03-2023 12:48 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

Except that I've said 1000 times here that I DON'T support Biden and that I will only consider voting for him if the other option is Trump.

But otherwise, sure... perhaps I have to support Biden.

2024 is shaping up to be the election where people come out to vote for the politician they consider the second worst.


Except for me, Biden Harris is both first and second worst.

My #1 choice has yet to announce. Same with all but one of my top ten.

Not that I think this would ever happen but how would you guys vote in 2024 with 3 choices:

Biden (D)
Trump ®
Musk (I)

I think I'd have to go Musk. Not that I think this would be good.

I'd go Musk.

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

(05-02-2023 06:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Given that Biden viewed this trip as a very personal one, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to bring his son. There was a lot of coverage about Biden and his Irish roots surrounding this trip.

His son is in his 50's, has his own life and makes plenty of money. No, it really doesn't make any sense at all. It's not as if he's never been to Ireland before... or never before had an opportunity to go to Ireland.

Besides... as I said... when you have the reputation that now both Joe AND Hunter have, it's not remotely a 'good look' to have someone so credibly accused of trading on his father's name and position traveling with the 'official' party.

I'm looking forward to seeing all of those 'tender father-son' photos where they are reminiscing about the family tartan or coat of arms... or the old family homestead. Those pictures should be heart-warming. You know, the sort of things that would be 'front and center' if this were truly a family vacation where he really wanted his son to be with him.

Apparently they (Hunter and the aunt) paid for a portion of the trip: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...-says.html

This isn’t the first family trip as an elected official, and the list of family members dwindled this time. It was also very focused on sightseeing with Hunter and his sister: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/world...ticleShare

They even stopped at a Catholic shrine, which happened to be where the priest who gave Beau his last rites were: https://www.kmov.com/2023/04/14/knock-sh...utType=amp

If you googled “Biden Ireland trip” you’ll find plenty of articles talking about the Irish ancestry and history that Biden wanted to see - that is, if non right wing media can make its way to the search results.

Just seems like a really silly thing to criticize Biden or Hunter over - Hunter tagging along on a work trip, paying for expenses, and not sitting in on meetings. I wonder if I should never consider bringing my family in a work trip so we can sightsee together…

Now, if Hunter had sat in on meetings or had some sort of official position within the White House that wasn’t up to his experience, that is a whole other story. Or, if there was a long pattern of Hunter tagging along and seemingly profiting off of the trips on a regular bases.

(05-03-2023 02:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

(05-02-2023 06:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Given that Biden viewed this trip as a very personal one, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to bring his son. There was a lot of coverage about Biden and his Irish roots surrounding this trip.

His son is in his 50's, has his own life and makes plenty of money. No, it really doesn't make any sense at all. It's not as if he's never been to Ireland before... or never before had an opportunity to go to Ireland.

Besides... as I said... when you have the reputation that now both Joe AND Hunter have, it's not remotely a 'good look' to have someone so credibly accused of trading on his father's name and position traveling with the 'official' party.

I'm looking forward to seeing all of those 'tender father-son' photos where they are reminiscing about the family tartan or coat of arms... or the old family homestead. Those pictures should be heart-warming. You know, the sort of things that would be 'front and center' if this were truly a family vacation where he really wanted his son to be with him.

Apparently they (Hunter and the aunt) paid for a portion of the trip: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...-says.html

This isn’t the first family trip as an elected official, and the list of family members dwindled this time. It was also very focused on sightseeing with Hunter and his sister: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/world...ticleShare

They even stopped at a Catholic shrine, which happened to be where the priest who gave Beau his last rites were: https://www.kmov.com/2023/04/14/knock-sh...utType=amp

If you googled “Biden Ireland trip” you’ll find plenty of articles talking about the Irish ancestry and history that Biden wanted to see - that is, if non right wing media can make its way to the search results.

Just seems like a really silly thing to criticize Biden or Hunter over - Hunter tagging along on a work trip, paying for expenses, and not sitting in on meetings. I wonder if I should never consider bringing my family in a work trip so we can sightsee together…

Now, if Hunter had sat in on meetings or had some sort of official position within the White House that wasn’t up to his experience, that is a whole other story. Or, if there was a long pattern of Hunter tagging along and seemingly profiting off of the trips on a regular bases.

In my mid-40s I tagged along with my brother on a work trip of his to Europe when his wife wasn't available. We hung out after his meetings and caught a couple soccer matches. Would recommend.

(05-03-2023 12:48 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 12:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 09:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I understand this sentiment but my whole point was that it is hard to make proclamations about what goes on with families when you're not in the family.

Whatever. I'm not trying to defend abandoning a kid and my opinion of Biden is clear.

I get that you don't have much of a 'feeling' one way or the other, nor do I... I just feel like if it were anyone other than a politicians that you (perhaps HAVE to) support, that it wouldn't even occurr to you to suggest that if ANYONE suggested they 'abandon' an innocent child, that you'd defer to 'family dynamics'.

Except that I've said 1000 times here that I DON'T support Biden and that I will only consider voting for him if the other option is Trump.

But otherwise, sure... perhaps I have to support Biden.

2024 is shaping up to be the election where people come out to vote for the politician they consider the second worst.


Except for me, Biden Harris is both first and second worst.

My #1 choice has yet to announce. Same with all but one of my top ten.

Not that I think this would ever happen but how would you guys vote in 2024 with 3 choices:

Biden (D)
Trump ®
Musk (I)

I think I'd have to go Musk. Not that I think this would be good.

If Musk had a significant chance to carry Texas, I would go Musk. If a Musk vote would be just a symbolic protest vote with no real chance of any impact, I would go Trump. If hell froze over, I would go Biden/Harris.

I think any Biden vote must be considered a vote for Harris. We have seen this before, when the Dems demonized Palin and proclaimed McCain would not survive 4 more years. After all, he was 76.

(05-03-2023 02:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(05-02-2023 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Unless Hunter (who is a disaster) has told his parents that under no circumstances does he want them to contact the family. Who knows. In a situation like this there are so many possibilities, undercurrents that it is hard to make a proclamation about "what he should do".

If my son had a child and he told me not to contact that child... not to pay for anything for that child... not to 'care' for that child, I'd be more likely to disown my son than the child.

Someone like the Senior Biden's should have sued the mother for 'grandparent alienation' or something and demanded time with the child. The LAST thing people like that (or really anyone) would do is 'abandon' a COMPLETELY innocent child,.. and I really can't believe you'd say otherwise.

(05-02-2023 06:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Given that Biden viewed this trip as a very personal one, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to bring his son. There was a lot of coverage about Biden and his Irish roots surrounding this trip.

His son is in his 50's, has his own life and makes plenty of money. No, it really doesn't make any sense at all. It's not as if he's never been to Ireland before... or never before had an opportunity to go to Ireland.

Besides... as I said... when you have the reputation that now both Joe AND Hunter have, it's not remotely a 'good look' to have someone so credibly accused of trading on his father's name and position traveling with the 'official' party.

I'm looking forward to seeing all of those 'tender father-son' photos where they are reminiscing about the family tartan or coat of arms... or the old family homestead. Those pictures should be heart-warming. You know, the sort of things that would be 'front and center' if this were truly a family vacation where he really wanted his son to be with him.

Apparently they (Hunter and the aunt) paid for a portion of the trip: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...-says.html

This isn’t the first family trip as an elected official, and the list of family members dwindled this time. It was also very focused on sightseeing with Hunter and his sister: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/world...ticleShare

They even stopped at a Catholic shrine, which happened to be where the priest who gave Beau his last rites were: https://www.kmov.com/2023/04/14/knock-sh...utType=amp

If you googled “Biden Ireland trip” you’ll find plenty of articles talking about the Irish ancestry and history that Biden wanted to see - that is, if non right wing media can make its way to the search results.

Just seems like a really silly thing to criticize Biden or Hunter over - Hunter tagging along on a work trip, paying for expenses, and not sitting in on meetings. I wonder if I should never consider bringing my family in a work trip so we can sightsee together…

Now, if Hunter had sat in on meetings or had some sort of official position within the White House that wasn’t up to his experience, that is a whole other story. Or, if there was a long pattern of Hunter tagging along and seemingly profiting off of the trips on a regular bases.

My objection is not to the aunt; it is to HUNTER. The aunt is not accused of participating in influence peddling. The aunt is not in court denying her child. The aunt is not a recovering drug addict.

If Hunter paid his share, where did the money come from? He is broke, so I hear. And when you have a bevy of $800/hr lawyers, expenses mount up.

I used to combine family vacations with business trips. Go to Jacksonville, see a customer, then head to the beach with the fam. I am sure that if the IRS used a fine tooth comb, they could have found something to disallow. I don't really have much concern for Hunter filling an empty seat on AF1. I don't think he ate or drank enough to matter. I guess it depends on what he drank.

Yet the TV publicity was of Hunter glad handing the crowds. Why Hunter and not the flight attendant or the pilot anyone else on the plane? Because he is the son of the POTUS. I didn't see much on the sister. You don't usually see the musician's family or the roadies being mobbed by the crowds on a tour.

Sure, it is a tradition to take the family on some overseas trips. I remember Obama taking his daughters to explore their Irish roots. But once more, my objection is to the sleazeball Son of a POTUS. Not anybody else.

Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis for Trump.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

Most of you who might change will move toward a third party, or write-in, or just plain staying home. Not much difference in those three options, IMO, although I have used all three at one point or another previously.

I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

(05-04-2023 06:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

Would proof that Trump tried to illegally short-circuit the certification change your mind to not vote for Trump in the event of a Trump/Biden rematch?

I dont dispute that the the air of dirty laundry permeates Hunter thoroughly, and potentially hits the big guy.

Right now it doesnt matter for me personally, since the Biden administration is so antithetical policy-wise to me to put a vote for Biden in the 'no way it happens' pile.

But the spectre of Trump in the White House, let alone dogcatcher, is an equally bad choice from my POV.

Quote:How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

I still would not vote for either.

Quote:Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis just about any other Republican nominee for Trump.

No doubt I would vote for whomever is at the top of the Republican ticket. Even without all the changes above.

Quote:I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you. That is a bridge I dont think I will cross. I would support Trump no more nor any less than I would support Nixon for another term if he were around.

No matter how much you try and soft shoe and gloss it with glowing references and equivalences to Washington and Houston.

And thank you for proactively answering my question above that is italicized. Again, more power to you.

(05-04-2023 09:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 06:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

Would proof that Trump tried to illegally short-circuit the certification change your mind to not vote for Trump in the event of a Trump/Biden rematch?

I dont dispute that the the air of dirty laundry permeates Hunter thoroughly, and potentially hits the big guy.

Right now it doesnt matter for me personally, since the Biden administration is so antithetical policy-wise to me to put a vote for Biden in the 'no way it happens' pile.

But the spectre of Trump in the White House, let alone dogcatcher, is an equally bad choice from my POV.

Quote:How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

I still would not vote for either.

Quote:Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis just about any other Republican nominee for Trump.

No doubt I would vote for whomever is at the top of the Republican ticket. Even without all the changes above.

Quote:I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you. That is a bridge I dont think I will cross. I would support Trump no more nor any less than I would support Nixon for another term if he were around.

No matter how much you try and soft shoe and gloss it with glowing references and equivalences to Washington and Houston.

And thank you for proactively answering my question above that is italicized. Again, more power to you.

My answers mirror Tanq's.

(05-04-2023 09:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 06:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

Would proof that Trump tried to illegally short-circuit the certification change your mind to not vote for Trump in the event of a Trump/Biden rematch?

I dont dispute that the the air of dirty laundry permeates Hunter thoroughly, and potentially hits the big guy.

Right now it doesnt matter for me personally, since the Biden administration is so antithetical policy-wise to me to put a vote for Biden in the 'no way it happens' pile.

But the spectre of Trump in the White House, let alone dogcatcher, is an equally bad choice from my POV.

Quote:How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

I still would not vote for either.

Quote:Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis just about any other Republican nominee for Trump.

No doubt I would vote for whomever is at the top of the Republican ticket. Even without all the changes above.

Quote:I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you. That is a bridge I dont think I will cross. I would support Trump no more nor any less than I would support Nixon for another term if he were around.

No matter how much you try and soft shoe and gloss it with glowing references and equivalences to Washington and Houston.

And thank you for proactively answering my question above that is italicized. Again, more power to you.

Thanks for your response, Tanq. Pretty much what I expected, and I am sure there are many who share your convictions.

I use the word convictions, as it is clear you are a man of principle, and you are abiding on those principles.

It is not that I am unprincipled. It is that I am not convinced that Trump's words/actions amount to insurrection, AND I believe that in any case, he would be the lesser evil. It is said that for evil to triumph, good men must do nothing. I think a lot of good men will be doing nothing in 2024, whether that nothing is voting for a dead man, like I suggested, or voting third party, or staying home, or any action other than choosing between the only two real possibilities. And that could result in a second term for Biden and/or a first term for Harris, and that is the greater evil I fear.

One area where we mesh is that we each would prefer not to have Trump lead the Republican ticket. I will not be supporting Trump in the primary. There, he is far from the lesser evil. I will probably vote for the frontrunner in his opposition.

I hope RFK, Jr can get some traction in his party. Seems pretty centrist to me, so probably not.

How would I vote in a RFK/DJT race? Good question.

Perhaps my position can best be illustrated by the answer to this question: Who would I prefer to be C-I-C on the morning China invades Taiwan? Biden? Harris? Trump? I think you know my answer.

(05-04-2023 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 09:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 06:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

Would proof that Trump tried to illegally short-circuit the certification change your mind to not vote for Trump in the event of a Trump/Biden rematch?

I dont dispute that the the air of dirty laundry permeates Hunter thoroughly, and potentially hits the big guy.

Right now it doesnt matter for me personally, since the Biden administration is so antithetical policy-wise to me to put a vote for Biden in the 'no way it happens' pile.

But the spectre of Trump in the White House, let alone dogcatcher, is an equally bad choice from my POV.

Quote:How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

I still would not vote for either.

Quote:Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis just about any other Republican nominee for Trump.

No doubt I would vote for whomever is at the top of the Republican ticket. Even without all the changes above.

Quote:I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you. That is a bridge I dont think I will cross. I would support Trump no more nor any less than I would support Nixon for another term if he were around.

No matter how much you try and soft shoe and gloss it with glowing references and equivalences to Washington and Houston.

And thank you for proactively answering my question above that is italicized. Again, more power to you.

My answers mirror Tanq's.

OMG…. The singularity is truly upon us…..

(05-04-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 09:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 06:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Would proof that Biden sold his influence/took bribes change anybody's stance in a Biden/Trump 2024 election? It is looking increasingly likely that those charges will be demonstrated in the next 1.5 years, either through Hunter's legal troubles or this whistleblower that just showed up.

Would proof that Trump tried to illegally short-circuit the certification change your mind to not vote for Trump in the event of a Trump/Biden rematch?

I dont dispute that the the air of dirty laundry permeates Hunter thoroughly, and potentially hits the big guy.

Right now it doesnt matter for me personally, since the Biden administration is so antithetical policy-wise to me to put a vote for Biden in the 'no way it happens' pile.

But the spectre of Trump in the White House, let alone dogcatcher, is an equally bad choice from my POV.

Quote:How about if it is a President Harris/Trump election? We aren't out of the woods yet on that, and even if he survives to 1-20-25, it appears she will be his running mate again.

Now throw in the possibility of a recession or other financial crisis. Does that change anybody's vote?

Now throw in a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, handled by the US as adroitly as the Afghan evacuation?

I still would not vote for either.

Quote:Now take both those possibilities and substitute DeSantis just about any other Republican nominee for Trump.

No doubt I would vote for whomever is at the top of the Republican ticket. Even without all the changes above.

Quote:I expect to vote for whoever is the Republican candidate. I cannot imagine the Democrats nominating any of the few Democrats that would be palatable to me. But I might write in an insurrectionist. Cannot decide between George Washington and Sam Houston.

If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you. That is a bridge I dont think I will cross. I would support Trump no more nor any less than I would support Nixon for another term if he were around.

No matter how much you try and soft shoe and gloss it with glowing references and equivalences to Washington and Houston.

And thank you for proactively answering my question above that is italicized. Again, more power to you.

My answers mirror Tanq's.

OMG…. The singularity is truly upon us…..

(05-04-2023 09:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  If you are okay with voting for a guy that gives zero regard to the law or to the Constitution, more power to you.

If it is Trump versus Biden, I think we would be choosing between two guys who both satisfy that criterion. And if anything, I think Trump is more honest and law-abiding than Biden, by a lot.The only way not to vote for a one is to vote for a libertarian who has no chance to win.

And regardless, I think we have a Deep State that meets that criterion. I want someone who has the ability to take on the Deep State and win. Trump has the cojones to do it, but not the smarts.

If somebody doesn't do it, I think we are too far down the road to some kind of totalitarianism. The USA has had a pretty good 250 year run or so, but stick the fork in us time may very well be approaching. And I don't see anyone who is strong enough, or even aware enough of the problem, to solve it.

Quote:If somebody doesn't do it, I think we are too far down the road to some kind of totalitarianism.

If the deep back issue is the road to totalitarianism, I dont understand why one would give *any* shrift to the guy who tried to short circuit the certification process.....

(05-05-2023 05:25 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:If somebody doesn't do it, I think we are too far down the road to some kind of totalitarianism.

If the deep back issue is the road to totalitarianism, I dont understand why one would give *any* shrift to the guy who tried to short circuit the certification process.....

I am far more worried about the people he is fighting against--the career bureaucrats who populate the Deep State--than I am about him. Four more years of democrat rule and I fear they will be so well and deeply entrenched that there will be nothing we can do about them.

Out constitutional system gives us enough checks and balances that we can control Donald Trump. I'm not sure how we would ever go about controlling the likes of Strzok, Strzok's squeeze, "Andy," Comey, Brennan, Mayorkas, Garland, and their ilk. Trump may want more power for himself, but overall he wants less power for government. The Deep State wants more power for government. I'd rather have a stronger Trump running a weaker government than a weaker Biden inside a stronger government.

I think we need a much weaker government, particularly at the federal level. Right now, I think we need it so badly and critically that I'm willing to put up with a lot to get it.

(05-05-2023 06:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 05:25 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

Quote:If somebody doesn't do it, I think we are too far down the road to some kind of totalitarianism.

If the deep back issue is the road to totalitarianism, I dont understand why one would give *any* shrift to the guy who tried to short circuit the certification process.....

I am far more worried about the people he is fighting against--the career bureaucrats who populate the Deep State--than I am about him. Four more years of democrat rule and I fear they will be so well and deeply entrenched that there will be nothing we can do about them.

Out constitutional system gives us enough checks and balances that we can control Donald Trump.

Based on actual history, are you so sure of that? Seems to me the *only* check that worked was Pence saying "no".

And bluntly, way too many people seem to way to willing to overlook Trump trying to short circuit the electors.

Quote: I'm not sure how we would ever go about controlling the likes of Strzok, Strzok's squeeze, "Andy," Comey, Brennan, Mayorkas, Garland, and their ilk.

So, support a guy who tried to violate the ECA and have himself declared President seems to be the choice de jour. Wonderful.

Lucky for us Trump had to chastise Pence when he said 'you [Pence] are too honest for your own good.' I honestly dont see a difference between intelligence personnel and a ******* caudillo wannabe. But you have every right to walk that difference measured by a micrometer.....

In another perspective, one might suggest that the 'power deep state' just *might* have gotten it right to try and vacate Donald. Seems they were spot fing on in their personal assessments of him being a dude who will try to grab power at any cost. Considering the attempt to illegally bypass the electors, it sure does ring true in some respects one has to admit......

Quote:I think we need a much weaker government, particularly at the federal level. Right now, I think we need it so badly and critically that I'm willing to put up with a lot to get it.

Sounds like you subscribe to attitude of Germany 1935. Deep state no --- caudillo wannabe yes....