To me, the issues that surrounded Penny’s first 4 years were not strategic on-the- floor-decisions but more about managing the roster, managing the parents/clingers & managing egos. Every season, except for this one, has been marred by drama & a subsequent mass exodus of players.

This season has been a welcomed change in that respect. No, we’re not as talented as last year, but there has been far less drama. I read an interview with former LSU coach Will Wade talking about the current state of college basketball & he simply restated the obvious… building culture is no longer the priority in college basketball. The kids will not stick around enough to allow for it. Today’s game is about building a team for 1 year, and then doing it again the next year. Its why program builders like Coack K, Jim Boeheim & Roy Williams are bailing a little prematurely & why squads like this years Memphis team are going to become the norm. It seems like it would be exhausting & extremely unfulfilling for a coach, but its very apparent Penny has accepted it

Penny has done fine, especially for a coach on his first job. Do I agree with everything he’s done? No I haven’t, especially his substitution patterns. But he’s a good x and o Coach imo and of course a great recruiter. Plus the players all respect him. Kendrick Davis being the prime example

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

Disagree wholeheartedly

The Covid years simply do not count imo

2020 the entire season was wiped out

2021 was shortened and the committee was compromised. Plus you had weird things happen like Georgetown winning the BE and GT winning the ACC. Duke and Virginia canceled their seasons

I only judge Penny on the last two seasons. Last year was a disappointment but we did make the tourney. I’ll be disappointed this season if we don’t make a sweet 16

(the first covid year, NO ONE MADE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT, because there was no ncaa tournament)

(02-21-2023 10:28 AM)Unionman76 Wrote:  (the first covid year, NO ONE MADE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT, because there was no ncaa tournament)

Exactly so nobody should be judged either way

And 2021 wasn’t much better with no fans in the arena and a bunch of games being cancelled

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

What I'm saying is that some of our fans aren't normal. He does NOT get a pass for the NCAA ******* us, and the #1 recruit in the entire country not being able to play?

I think a simple rule of thumb, is any poster who names himself after a car, is on the "special" list. The board is 2 for 2 so far.

(02-21-2023 10:15 AM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

The more fair comparison would be to track Penny’s 1st 4 years at Memphis to prior Memphis coaches; and he’s in a similar position as Finch, Pastner & Cal & in better position than Tic Price. Dana had Memphis in the Sweet 16 in year 3, but only 48 teams made the tournament & the Sweet 16 only required winning 1 game. The trade off was it was much harder to get a bid.

Penny is not Bob Knight. Penny is not Coach K. He didn’t start out at coaching at the USMA, but took over a really good program in a hometown filled with basketball talent. He’s done fine, but its not unreasonable for others to ask if its “enough” at a program like Memphis.

Jeff Goodman is a no-talent a$$hat. He's from Mass and is very biased towards northeast bball. He has no eye for the game and follows the talking head crowd.

He only makes money when we give his BS pod, twitter account, etc views.

Ignore that ogre.

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

-

(02-21-2023 11:21 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 10:15 AM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

The more fair comparison would be to track Penny’s 1st 4 years at Memphis to prior Memphis coaches; and he’s in a similar position as Finch, Pastner & Cal & in better position than Tic Price. Dana had Memphis in the Sweet 16 in year 3, but only 48 teams made the tournament & the Sweet 16 only required winning 1 game. The trade off was it was much harder to get a bid.

Penny is not Bob Knight. Penny is not Coach K. He didn’t start out at coaching at the USMA, but took over a really good program in a hometown filled with basketball talent. He’s done fine, but its not unreasonable for others to ask if its “enough” at a program like Memphis.

You completely miss the point. Penny came in with no experience at the collegiate level aside from being a player, and in spite of numerous setbacks (notwithstanding losing a year of post-season play due to COVID that none of the other coaches had to deal with in their first four years) he's outperformed compared to many of the all-time great coaches during their first four years. Are comparison this challenging for you?

Edit: The key point that most people fail to get is that he had no coaching experience, not even as an assistant. We all knew that going in and to not have tempered expectations is unrealistic and frankly absurd. In spite of that, out of three seasons with the possibility for post-season play, he's won the NIT outright and gotten us to the second round of both the NIT and the NCAA tournament. To discount that boggles the mind.

(02-21-2023 12:10 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 11:21 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 10:15 AM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

The more fair comparison would be to track Penny’s 1st 4 years at Memphis to prior Memphis coaches; and he’s in a similar position as Finch, Pastner & Cal & in better position than Tic Price. Dana had Memphis in the Sweet 16 in year 3, but only 48 teams made the tournament & the Sweet 16 only required winning 1 game. The trade off was it was much harder to get a bid.

Penny is not Bob Knight. Penny is not Coach K. He didn’t start out at coaching at the USMA, but took over a really good program in a hometown filled with basketball talent. He’s done fine, but its not unreasonable for others to ask if its “enough” at a program like Memphis.

You completely miss the point. Penny came in with no experience at the collegiate level aside from being a player, and in spite of numerous setbacks (notwithstanding losing a year of post-season play due to COVID that none of the other coaches had to deal with in their first four years) he's outperformed compared to many of the all-time great coaches during their first four years. Are comparison this challenging for you?

Are you then saying we should expect “better than” Coach K-like results, since Penny’s had a more productive first 4 years? These same ridiculous Coach K comparisons were being made with Josh Pastner when he was getting his start here & it hasn’t exactly worked out for Josh.

No, I don’t miss the point… I just think its silly to draw inferences based on incomparable comparisons.

(02-21-2023 11:46 AM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

-

Coach K, Calipari and Tony Bennett all missed the tourney in 2021.


Let me repeat this for the hard of reading THERE WAS NO TOURNEY in 2020. Wasn’t even a conference tourney.

Smh

(02-21-2023 12:28 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 12:10 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 11:21 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 10:15 AM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

The more fair comparison would be to track Penny’s 1st 4 years at Memphis to prior Memphis coaches; and he’s in a similar position as Finch, Pastner & Cal & in better position than Tic Price. Dana had Memphis in the Sweet 16 in year 3, but only 48 teams made the tournament & the Sweet 16 only required winning 1 game. The trade off was it was much harder to get a bid.

Penny is not Bob Knight. Penny is not Coach K. He didn’t start out at coaching at the USMA, but took over a really good program in a hometown filled with basketball talent. He’s done fine, but its not unreasonable for others to ask if its “enough” at a program like Memphis.

You completely miss the point. Penny came in with no experience at the collegiate level aside from being a player, and in spite of numerous setbacks (notwithstanding losing a year of post-season play due to COVID that none of the other coaches had to deal with in their first four years) he's outperformed compared to many of the all-time great coaches during their first four years. Are comparison this challenging for you?

Are you then saying we should expect “better than” Coach K-like results, since Penny’s had a more productive first 4 years? These same ridiculous Coach K comparisons were being made with Josh Pastner when he was getting his start here & it hasn’t exactly worked out for Josh.

No, I don’t miss the point… I just think its silly to draw inferences based on incomparable comparisons.

Again you miss the point completely. That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that one can't predict the ultimate trajectory of a coach by their first few years, and compared to some of the greats, his early achievements are laudable. Never once did I state that Penny would see the level of achievement as the aforementioned coaches, did I? No matter the level of ability, most coaches, even the very best, don't knock it out of the park within the first few years.

Furthermore, anyone who expected Calipari or Kirk level performance out of the gate is a complete fool. Penny had zero collegiate coaching experience. To not have realistic expectations is absurd.

(02-21-2023 12:58 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 12:28 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 12:10 PM)msu35 Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 11:21 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 10:15 AM)msu35 Wrote:  So instead you'll ignore the fact that he's performed better in his first four years than many of the best coaches in college basketball history, even with all of the aforementioned factors. That makes perfect sense.

The more fair comparison would be to track Penny’s 1st 4 years at Memphis to prior Memphis coaches; and he’s in a similar position as Finch, Pastner & Cal & in better position than Tic Price. Dana had Memphis in the Sweet 16 in year 3, but only 48 teams made the tournament & the Sweet 16 only required winning 1 game. The trade off was it was much harder to get a bid.

Penny is not Bob Knight. Penny is not Coach K. He didn’t start out at coaching at the USMA, but took over a really good program in a hometown filled with basketball talent. He’s done fine, but its not unreasonable for others to ask if its “enough” at a program like Memphis.

You completely miss the point. Penny came in with no experience at the collegiate level aside from being a player, and in spite of numerous setbacks (notwithstanding losing a year of post-season play due to COVID that none of the other coaches had to deal with in their first four years) he's outperformed compared to many of the all-time great coaches during their first four years. Are comparison this challenging for you?

Are you then saying we should expect “better than” Coach K-like results, since Penny’s had a more productive first 4 years? These same ridiculous Coach K comparisons were being made with Josh Pastner when he was getting his start here & it hasn’t exactly worked out for Josh.

No, I don’t miss the point… I just think its silly to draw inferences based on incomparable comparisons.

Again you miss the point completely. That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that one can't predict the ultimate trajectory of a coach by their first few years, and compared to some of the greats, his early achievements are laudable. Never once did I state that Penny would see the level of achievement as the aforementioned coaches, did I? No matter the level of ability, most coaches, even the very best, don't knock it out of the park within the first few years.

Furthermore, anyone who expected Calipari or Kirk level performance out of the gate is a complete fool. Penny had zero collegiate coaching experience. To not have realistic expectations is absurd.

You drew the comparison. I said the comparisons are silly. Now, you’ve come full circle & said no can predict the ultimate trajectory… & on that we agree. I’m not anti-Penny, but I do question his leadership skills & hope he’s learned over his 1st four years that pleasing everyone is a recipe for pleasing no one.

Going into the 2019/2020 season, Penny was the one who set the high expectations...
“The teams like Michigan State, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, all the usual suspects. I’ve studied the film. I know who they are, but when I look at this group, I just say to myself, ‘We’re going to win a national championship.’"

(02-21-2023 01:29 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  You drew the comparison. I said the comparisons are silly. Now, you’ve come full circle & said no can predict the ultimate trajectory… & on that we agree. I’m not anti-Penny, but I do question his leadership skills & hope he’s learned over his 1st four years that pleasing everyone is a recipe for pleasing no one.

Going into the 2019/2020 season, Penny is the one who set the high expectations...
“The teams like Michigan State, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, all the usual suspects. I’ve studied the film. I know who they are, but when I look at this group, I just say to myself, ‘We’re going to win a national championship.’"

It's not silly at all and I haven't come full circle. You keep projecting your opinion and repeatedly trying to infer a meaning that isn't there based on my direct statements. Extrapolation is apparently a very weak area for you, so stop trying. If not that, you're trolling or intentionally trying to be obtuse.

I'll explain one last time, read slowly so you will understand, and process my words directly without inferences. I'm saying that the naysayers are prematurely condemning Penny when even the greatest coaches had lesser achievements within their first several years. Additionally, no matter what, any reasonable person would have tempered expectations due to the reality of the circumstances, knowing that Penny had zero collegiate experience.

What I stated previously is unambiguous. One can't say that a coach will be an all-time great, an all-time dud, or simply average by their first few years. Do you know what "ultimate trajectory" means or were my words too big? I also never said he would become a poor coach. The entire point is that it's too early to predict what Penny's ultimate future is and his early achievements have overshadowed the early achievements of coaches who eventually became among the greatest coaches in college basketball. That does not mean I'm saying Penny is destined to become an all time great, what that means is that people need to be patient and understand he has already accomplished much in his time and just because he's hasn't taken us to the Sweet Sixteen or better doesn't mean it's not right around the corner. Got it?

The comparison isn't stupid, pretending to not know how to read or comprehend what is read to further some misguided fallacy is what's stupid.

(02-21-2023 12:58 PM)msu35 Wrote:  Again you miss the point completely. That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that one can't predict the ultimate trajectory of a coach by their first few years, and compared to some of the greats, his early achievements are laudable. Never once did I state that Penny would see the level of achievement as the aforementioned coaches, did I? No matter the level of ability, most coaches, even the very best, don't knock it out of the park within the first few years.

Furthermore, anyone who expected Calipari or Kirk level performance out of the gate is a complete fool. Penny had zero collegiate coaching experience. To not have realistic expectations is absurd.

(02-21-2023 11:46 AM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 09:53 AM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:52 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 09:26 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Judging strictly on results, its fair to say we’ve not lived up to the smoke, hype or whatever else we were gonna bring. We have, after all, only won 1 NCAA tournament game thus far in Penny’s 4+ years and are yet again squarely on the bubble.

There are intangibles with Penny that Memphians extend to a guy who means as much to the city as Penny does to ours; but national guys like Goodman don’t consider those. They look at our program as having everything in place to be a consistent top 25 level program, yet we’re consistently struggling to make the tournament. Its kinda a catch 22… is Memphis a top 25 program? I certainly think we are.

yup, I agree...we get it.

year 1: wiseman thing
year 2: COVID
year 3: COVID
year 4: NCAA 2nd Round
year 5: in progress

that's how I see it but outsiders aren't very forgiving.

I'm not saying Penny should be gone. What I am saying is I can't give him a pass because of COVID years or Wiseman. The Wiseman thing we botched...no other way around it. COVID...everyone had to deal with that so I can't give us a pass.

-

It's not a pass...it's an incomplete season followed by like 3/4 of a season all due to a worldwide pandemic.

I wouldn't even try to judge a team when there is so much totally out of the coaches control.

I would say last season and this season are what he should be judged on but that's just me.

If Penny is judged on these past two years alone, I think most would have to admit he has done admirably.

Back to the wall last season and having a terrible draw, giving Gonzaga all they wanted.

This season a lot of newcomers, and right now barring collapse, clearly in the NCAA.

No we aren't a top 4 seed right now but he and our program definitely seems to be on the upswing. Throw in a (i know i know) NIT championship and it is just ridiculous to be a Penny hater, even if the jury is still out on his possible upside.

One thing about college basketball is it is more about players than coaching, and Penny has if nothing else proven himself an elite recruiter. If Penny lands the right combination of players in any given year, he may very well have us back in the E8 or FF.

Ok, I've read this 'we are in the NCAA' in several threads here & I agree if selections are being made tomorrow. But its not like selections are being made tomorrow. There are games to be played & if we have losses to anyone except UH the rest of the scheduled season we might not be in. The point is, we are not a lock, we are not probably in no matter what we do the rest of the way, we are essentially on the bubble needing wins to get in.