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The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
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unalions Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 09:54 AM)ZooMass84 Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?
Didn't Jerry Rice go there?

Yes.
01-26-2023 12:15 PM
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unalions Offline
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 11:17 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?

That exact proposal (merging all 3 FCS HBCUs) was discussed 10-15 years ago. There was a ton of pushback and it went nowhere.

Yeah, but Delta State wasn't in as dire of a situation as they are now.

Delta State has an enrollment problem. So far, no one’s been able to solve it.
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/12/14/delta-state-has-an-enrollment-problem-so-far-no-ones-been-able-to-solve-it/
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2023 12:17 PM by unalions.)
01-26-2023 12:16 PM
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Post: #23
RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 11:58 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  The thing that makes Chicago State so unique isn't that their primary sports are pretty bad. Todor is right, Chicago State basketball has plenty of company among low majors for basketball futility. I don't think there's a huge difference between Cougar basketball over the last six years and like, a bad NEC, AEC or Ivy team.

What sets them apart is the administrative chaos. Not many schools have had to cancel games because of improperly filed compliance paperwork like CSU has. Not many schools have hired a new AD like, every three years, like CSU has. Not many D1 schools were flirting with outright closure over the last decade, or have struggled to staff key internal roles, like CSU.

It's not that Chicago State is bad at college sports. It's bad at "being a college."
01-26-2023 12:17 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 12:16 PM)unalions Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:17 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?

That exact proposal (merging all 3 FCS HBCUs) was discussed 10-15 years ago. There was a ton of pushback and it went nowhere.

Yeah, but Delta State wasn't in as dire of a situation as they are now.

Delta State has an enrollment problem. So far, no one’s been able to solve it.
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/12/14/delta-state-has-an-enrollment-problem-so-far-no-ones-been-able-to-solve-it/

There have been rumors that Delta State was one of the schools that the Southland was talking to to join them. They are closer to some of the Louisiana schools, so it might help boost their enrollment up, but they need to do more.
01-26-2023 12:34 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 12:16 PM)unalions Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:17 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?

That exact proposal (merging all 3 FCS HBCUs) was discussed 10-15 years ago. There was a ton of pushback and it went nowhere.

Yeah, but Delta State wasn't in as dire of a situation as they are now.

Delta State has an enrollment problem. So far, no one’s been able to solve it.
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/12/14/delta-state-has-an-enrollment-problem-so-far-no-ones-been-able-to-solve-it/

From the article, all the Mississippi Universities other than Mississippi State have declining enrollment.
01-26-2023 12:35 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 11:58 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  The thing that makes Chicago State so unique isn't that their primary sports are pretty bad. Todor is right, Chicago State basketball has plenty of company among low majors for basketball futility. I don't think there's a huge difference between Cougar basketball over the last six years and like, a bad NEC, AEC or Ivy team.

What sets them apart is the administrative chaos. Not many schools have had to cancel games because of improperly filed compliance paperwork like CSU has. Not many schools have hired a new AD like, every three years, like CSU has. Not many D1 schools were flirting with outright closure over the last decade, or have struggled to staff key internal roles, like CSU.

I don't know if it is the most dysfunctional department in D1, but it's probably close, and that's for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with what you see in a box score or on the NET.

I wouldn't put Rice anywhere close to the worst athletic department list. FIU under Pete Garcia might have been in that conversation, but I can't think of any FBS school in that world right now.

I think you are right on many of those points. But I would add, when a school loses millions in funding, which (in part at least) contribute to smaller enrollment and an even smaller budget, things can hairy. In situations like that, good people move on to better positions elsewhere. You get less, and less qualified candidates applying. New staff need time to get their feet wet and can make mistakes an experienced AD, financial aid person, or registrar might not make.

The last few years haven’t been great for Chicago State. Not by a long shot. But please keep in mind, Chicago State is not a new school and has spent most of its history as a growing institution. Not that long ago it was around 10,000 students. Now, after rebounding some, it’s about 4,500.

I know, people love to look up how many Freshman they had 5 years ago and laugh and say they should be shut down. Of course, they don’t know that there is a community college that is much cheaper literally across the road, and they have always been very light on Freshman and heavy on transfers. Graduation rates are another poor indicator of quality where a large percent of students are part time and take longer to get thru. Many other schools face the same challenge, but it’s mostly comparing apples and oranges.

Given the same challenges, I’m not sure other schools would do much better. Oh, they think they would. (That would never happen at my school) But once you get low morale due to cutbacks that had nothing to do with CSU, start having attrition issues with both staff and students, deal with outside political meddling, etc, it takes time to right the ship. I think that has largely been done. But it takes time to completely turn a place around. All the news was bad news on every front for a number of years, but it remains a affordable, accredited, public opportunity college with a decent location and a nice campus, all in an area where kids need all of the opportunities they can get.

The administrative chaos is (in part) a product of funding issues. They could have, and would have, done many things differently if they simply had the resources to do them. Poor management can thrive in chaos better than anywhere else. But when you are scrambling every single year trying to preserve what you have, that is inevitably going to have an impact. To me, things are definitely looking up there, whether anyone chooses to see it or not.
01-26-2023 12:55 PM
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Post: #27
RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 12:15 PM)unalions Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 09:54 AM)ZooMass84 Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?
Didn't Jerry Rice go there?

Yes.

As did Deacon Jones, though it had different name.
01-26-2023 08:07 PM
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ZooMass84 Offline
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 11:58 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  The thing that makes Chicago State so unique isn't that their primary sports are pretty bad. Todor is right, Chicago State basketball has plenty of company among low majors for basketball futility. I don't think there's a huge difference between Cougar basketball over the last six years and like, a bad NEC, AEC or Ivy team.

What sets them apart is the administrative chaos. Not many schools have had to cancel games because of improperly filed compliance paperwork like CSU has. Not many schools have hired a new AD like, every three years, like CSU has. Not many D1 schools were flirting with outright closure over the last decade, or have struggled to staff key internal roles, like CSU.

I don't know if it is the most dysfunctional department in D1, but it's probably close, and that's for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with what you see in a box score or on the NET.

I wouldn't put Rice anywhere close to the worst athletic department list. FIU under Pete Garcia might have been in that conversation, but I can't think of any FBS school in that world right now.
Rice is an awesome university academically but has a tiny enrollment. They do have a National Championship in baseball. Has been FBS forever. Huge endowment and has an equal number of undergrads & graduate students.
01-26-2023 10:45 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
Keep an eye on Bethune-Cookman. Bad blood is in the news between a former coach, Ed Reed and the school. These HBCUs are in worst shape than we think.
01-26-2023 11:34 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 11:34 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Keep an eye on Bethune-Cookman. Bad blood is in the news between a former coach, Ed Reed and the school. These HBCUs are in worst shape than we think.

B-C has been embroiled in controversy for a while now.

This article is worth a read. This is pretty wild. A real soap opera.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...0scrutiny.

Here is an excerpt from an article about their nearly a third of a billion dollar dormitory. Yep, over $300 million for a dorm that houses 1,200 students. Not only did the College go forward on the plan that involved their presidents forged signature, the $75 million dorm (original cost) overran the budge by over $13 million. Then, because they have no money, they signed up for a crazy financing deal. It’s a real house of cards.

“The Daytona Beach News-Journal detailing several unusual facts about the building’s construction and Bethune-Cookman’s finances. Those payments start at $470,000 per month and rise 1.5 percent per year. They will reach a high of $840,000 per month and total more than $306 million by the time the agreement ends.”

But don’t worry, while they were perfectly willing (and dumb enough) to sign up for a deal that would likely bankrupt them, but the private school got a $108 million bailout loan created for HBCU’s in 2020/21 to get themselves out from under the deal. Now they just owe the government.

Students are also up in arms currently about living conditions in other mold infested dorms, topped off by the firing of a new football coach who had not even started yet.

Pro Football Hall of Famer Ed Reed was ousted from his job at the Daytona Beach, Florida, school last week before he had even formally started it, after he alleged in a profanity-laced social media rebuke that he had arrived to find an unclean office and a trash-strewn campus.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stu...-rcna67054
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2023 12:42 AM by Todor.)
01-27-2023 12:02 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 12:02 AM)Todor Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:34 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Keep an eye on Bethune-Cookman. Bad blood is in the news between a former coach, Ed Reed and the school. These HBCUs are in worst shape than we think.

B-C has been embroiled in controversy for a while now.

This article is worth a read. This is pretty wild. A real soap opera.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...0scrutiny.

Here is an excerpt from an article about their nearly a third of a billion dollar dormitory. Yep, over $300 million for a dorm that houses 1,200 students. Not only did the College go forward on the plan that involved their presidents forged signature, the $75 million dorm (original cost) overran the budge by over $13 million. Then, because they have no money, they signed up for a crazy financing deal. It’s a real house of cards.

“The Daytona Beach News-Journal detailing several unusual facts about the building’s construction and Bethune-Cookman’s finances. Those payments start at $470,000 per month and rise 1.5 percent per year. They will reach a high of $840,000 per month and total more than $306 million by the time the agreement ends.”

But don’t worry, while they were perfectly willing (and dumb enough) to sign up for a deal that would likely bankrupt them, but the private school got a $108 million bailout loan created for HBCU’s in 2020/21 to get themselves out from under the deal. Now they just owe the government.

Students are also up in arms currently about living conditions in other mold infested dorms, topped off by the firing of a new football coach who had not even started yet.

Pro Football Hall of Famer Ed Reed was ousted from his job at the Daytona Beach, Florida, school last week before he had even formally started it, after he alleged in a profanity-laced social media rebuke that he had arrived to find an unclean office and a trash-strewn campus.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stu...-rcna67054

The way it is going? I would not be surprise if they close down for good. The leadership got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and mismanagement of fundings.
01-27-2023 01:52 PM
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Post: #32
RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 12:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:58 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  The thing that makes Chicago State so unique isn't that their primary sports are pretty bad. Todor is right, Chicago State basketball has plenty of company among low majors for basketball futility. I don't think there's a huge difference between Cougar basketball over the last six years and like, a bad NEC, AEC or Ivy team.

What sets them apart is the administrative chaos. Not many schools have had to cancel games because of improperly filed compliance paperwork like CSU has. Not many schools have hired a new AD like, every three years, like CSU has. Not many D1 schools were flirting with outright closure over the last decade, or have struggled to staff key internal roles, like CSU.

I don't know if it is the most dysfunctional department in D1, but it's probably close, and that's for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with what you see in a box score or on the NET.

I wouldn't put Rice anywhere close to the worst athletic department list. FIU under Pete Garcia might have been in that conversation, but I can't think of any FBS school in that world right now.

I think you are right on many of those points. But I would add, when a school loses millions in funding, which (in part at least) contribute to smaller enrollment and an even smaller budget, things can hairy. In situations like that, good people move on to better positions elsewhere. You get less, and less qualified candidates applying. New staff need time to get their feet wet and can make mistakes an experienced AD, financial aid person, or registrar might not make.

The last few years haven’t been great for Chicago State. Not by a long shot. But please keep in mind, Chicago State is not a new school and has spent most of its history as a growing institution. Not that long ago it was around 10,000 students. Now, after rebounding some, it’s about 4,500.

I know, people love to look up how many Freshman they had 5 years ago and laugh and say they should be shut down. Of course, they don’t know that there is a community college that is much cheaper literally across the road, and they have always been very light on Freshman and heavy on transfers. Graduation rates are another poor indicator of quality where a large percent of students are part time and take longer to get thru. Many other schools face the same challenge, but it’s mostly comparing apples and oranges.

Given the same challenges, I’m not sure other schools would do much better. Oh, they think they would. (That would never happen at my school) But once you get low morale due to cutbacks that had nothing to do with CSU, start having attrition issues with both staff and students, deal with outside political meddling, etc, it takes time to right the ship. I think that has largely been done. But it takes time to completely turn a place around. All the news was bad news on every front for a number of years, but it remains a affordable, accredited, public opportunity college with a decent location and a nice campus, all in an area where kids need all of the opportunities they can get.

The administrative chaos is (in part) a product of funding issues. They could have, and would have, done many things differently if they simply had the resources to do them. Poor management can thrive in chaos better than anywhere else. But when you are scrambling every single year trying to preserve what you have, that is inevitably going to have an impact. To me, things are definitely looking up there, whether anyone chooses to see it or not.

All very fair points. Nevertheless, the value proposition for Chicago State athletics is pretty unclear under those conditions. The JUCO transfers are coming whether or not there's athletics. It would seem that Chicago State might be served well to follow the example of Northeastern Illinois and drop athletics entirely.
01-27-2023 02:18 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
Delaware State and Central Connecticut State came to my mind first.

And man has Valpo fallen. Not the worst, but have fallen from their glory years quite a bit.
01-27-2023 04:19 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 04:19 PM)Fresno Fanatic Wrote:  Delaware State and Central Connecticut State came to my mind first.

And man has Valpo fallen. Not the worst, but have fallen from their glory years quite a bit.

Valpo may very well be the worst athletic department right now in an upper half D1 conference.
01-27-2023 04:40 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
I think the states who have multiple state HBCUs should contemplate consolidating their HBCUs under one university system to help eliminate duplicate administrative costs. Let them maintain their names (and for most schools, their athletics), cut the bureaucracy
01-27-2023 05:50 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 05:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think the states who have multiple state HBCUs should contemplate consolidating their HBCUs under one university system to help eliminate duplicate administrative costs. Let them maintain their names (and for most schools, their athletics), cut the bureaucracy

That's not a sensible idea for states like Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas who either have state HBCUs far apart (AL, LA) or self-sustainable HBCUs (TX). It might make sense with MVSU in MS, but it would be a career-killer politically.
01-27-2023 06:05 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 04:19 PM)Fresno Fanatic Wrote:  Delaware State and Central Connecticut State came to my mind first.

And man has Valpo fallen. Not the worst, but have fallen from their glory years quite a bit.

You could possibly add Maryland Eastern Shore to that list. If you want to to name an athletic department that flies more under the radar, I’m not sure who it would be. Not much going on there.

I would agree with Delaware State. I dont know so much about CCSU. While I do remember them making the NCAA tournament a few times, some NEC team is going to make it every year, but it doesn’t mean that team is any good at all.
01-27-2023 06:52 PM
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Todor Online
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 06:05 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-27-2023 05:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think the states who have multiple state HBCUs should contemplate consolidating their HBCUs under one university system to help eliminate duplicate administrative costs. Let them maintain their names (and for most schools, their athletics), cut the bureaucracy

That's not a sensible idea for states like Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas who either have state HBCUs far apart (AL, LA) or self-sustainable HBCUs (TX). It might make sense with MVSU in MS, but it would be a career-killer politically.

Essentially the same reason states have multiple university systems, community colleges which operate independently, a separate system of trade schools, mid sized state universities which are independent etc.

There isn’t just one way states run their systems, so any generalized “well what they ought to do is…” is usually not based on any logic of how things actually work.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2023 11:16 AM by Todor.)
01-27-2023 06:58 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-26-2023 12:34 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 12:16 PM)unalions Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:17 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:06 AM)unalions Wrote:  Mississippi Valley State. Ongoing issues including their football stadium being closed down. Low enrollment, etc.

Neighboring D2 Delta State is also having enrollment issues.

They need to merge those two into a more competitive D1/FCS program. Might be a good addition to the Southland.

Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?

That exact proposal (merging all 3 FCS HBCUs) was discussed 10-15 years ago. There was a ton of pushback and it went nowhere.

Yeah, but Delta State wasn't in as dire of a situation as they are now.

Delta State has an enrollment problem. So far, no one’s been able to solve it.
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/12/14/delta-state-has-an-enrollment-problem-so-far-no-ones-been-able-to-solve-it/

There have been rumors that Delta State was one of the schools that the Southland was talking to to join them. They are closer to some of the Louisiana schools, so it might help boost their enrollment up, but they need to do more.



As someone from Mississippi, this tells me that you know absolutely nothing about Delta State and the condition of their finances, facilities, enrollment, and campus.

There is a 0.0% chance DSU will move up. Literally the only thing they have going for them is the Fighting Ocra mascot.
01-27-2023 08:49 PM
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RE: The 2nd worst D1 Athletic Dept behind Chicago State?
(01-27-2023 08:49 PM)The Roach Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 12:34 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 12:16 PM)unalions Wrote:  
(01-26-2023 11:17 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  
(01-25-2023 12:40 AM)bullet Wrote:  Mississippi Valley is tiny. Merging them would help both schools. And perhaps Alcorn and Jackson St. as well. Does Mississippi really need 3 state HBCUs?

That exact proposal (merging all 3 FCS HBCUs) was discussed 10-15 years ago. There was a ton of pushback and it went nowhere.

Yeah, but Delta State wasn't in as dire of a situation as they are now.

Delta State has an enrollment problem. So far, no one’s been able to solve it.
https://mississippitoday.org/2022/12/14/delta-state-has-an-enrollment-problem-so-far-no-ones-been-able-to-solve-it/

There have been rumors that Delta State was one of the schools that the Southland was talking to to join them. They are closer to some of the Louisiana schools, so it might help boost their enrollment up, but they need to do more.



As someone from Mississippi, this tells me that you know absolutely nothing about Delta State and the condition of their finances, facilities, enrollment, and campus.

There is a 0.0% chance DSU will move up. Literally the only thing they have going for them is the Fighting Ocra mascot.


I did not say they were. It was in an article out of Lake Charles Louisiana mentioned their name as a rumor that they are talking to The Southland. All I am saying is that they are close to those D1 schools.
01-27-2023 09:59 PM
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