Scott Rolen made the baseball Hall of Fame today - the only player to make the Hall this year. I'm not really sure why Rolen got in and Lance Berkman didn't gain any momentum towards making it as the process continued for Lance.

Here's a comparison of the two (and they played roughly in the same era)

Berkman - 1879 games (1999-2013)
Rolen - 2038 games (1996-2012)

Berkman - 366 HR, 1234 RBI, .943 OPS, 51.9 WAR
Rolen - 316 HR, 1287 RBI, .855 OPS, 70.1 WAR

Rolen was a different position (3B compared to mostly 1B for Lance), and a much better fielder (7 gold gloves). I think ultimately Lance's career ending quicker cost him those 2000 hits and 400 homers (maybe), and those seem to be the milestones baseball writers are looking for. And he was hurt by the tougher competition to get into the Hall than someone like Rolen.

Still, I find it hard to believe that someone can make a solid case as to why Rolen deserves the Hall of Fame, and Lance never came close to getting in.

Couldn't agree more. Lance was a far superior hitter than Rolen. Rolen had good power, but struck out a ton. And Lance was not bad defensively. Let's not forget he played CF for a couple years there.

Lance made 6 all-star games and finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting 6 times (3 times in Top 3).

Rolen made 7 all-star appearances, but finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting just once.

Plus, Lance was one of the best switch hitters in MLB history.

(01-24-2023 07:31 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Still, I find it hard to believe that someone can make a solid case as to why Rolen deserves the Hall of Fame, and Lance never came close to getting in.

The reason likely has almost nothing to do with the straightforward math.

Same reason he isn't coaching at Rice perhaps?

(01-25-2023 12:21 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Same reason he isn't coaching at Rice perhaps?

He's not head coaching at Rice for one reason and one reason only-- he had no previous D1 coaching experience when we had the opening.

(01-25-2023 12:28 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(01-25-2023 12:21 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Same reason he isn't coaching at Rice perhaps?

He's not head coaching at Rice for one reason and one reason only-- he had no previous D1 coaching experience when we had the opening.

Don’t believe Cheito did either. Next excuse.

While I'd love to have an Owl in the Baseball HoF, you all are breezing over a nearly 20 bWAR gap between Rolen and Berkman, which is not insignificant at all. While Berkman was a somewhat better hitter than Rolen, Rolen was in an entirely different league defensively, as evidenced by Rolen having 8 Gold Gloves vs. Berkman's 0 (which is a BIG DEAL to HoF voters).

If you showed me 2 anonymous players with these guys' resumes, I would think the 70 bWAR player would likely be a lock for the HoF unless he was on steroids or cheated some other way, and that the 50 bWAR player would likely miss out unless there were some extenuating personal / injury circumstances.

I think Rolen pretty clearly belongs in the HoF (not saying anyone's disagreeing) but very surprised you all think there's that strong of an argument to be made for Berkman...

(01-25-2023 04:03 PM)2018Owl Wrote:  While I'd love to have an Owl in the Baseball HoF, you all are breezing over a nearly 20 bWAR gap between Rolen and Berkman, which is not insignificant at all. While Berkman was a somewhat better hitter than Rolen, Rolen was in an entirely different league defensively, as evidenced by Rolen having 8 Gold Gloves vs. Berkman's 0 (which is a BIG DEAL to HoF voters).

If you showed me 2 anonymous players with these guys' resumes, I would think the 70 bWAR player would likely be a lock for the HoF unless he was on steroids or cheated some other way, and that the 50 bWAR player would likely miss out unless there were some extenuating personal / injury circumstances.

I think Rolen pretty clearly belongs in the HoF (not saying anyone's disagreeing) but very surprised you all think there's that strong of an argument to be made for Berkman...

I'm disagreeing. Sure, Rolen deserves it over guys such as Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda, but as someone who followed Rolen's entire career (being a Mets fan)-- and not simply looking a the analytical stats, I do not consider Rolen a HOFer; nor do I think he's a superior player than Lance. Lance was a MUCH better hitter; not simply slightly better. No comparison at the plate. Most of his bWAR is defense, and even there, he was no Ozzie Smith at SS or Keith Hernandez at 1B or even Brooks Robinson at 3B. He didn't revolutionize the 3B position defensively as those other 3 did.

Again, only once was he considered in the Top 10 in MVP voting, and only a couple more times in the Top 25. Conversely, Lance finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting 6 times (3 in the Top 3), and another 4 times in the Top 20.

I agree with this tweet re. Keith Hernandez vs. Scott Rolen...

https://twitter.com/PolyesterUnis/status...6449017857

Quote:Vintage Jerseys & Hats
@PolyesterUnis
Scott Rolen was great. Keith Hernandez played the same # of seasons and had more BB's, hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves, MVP's and World Series. Plus, less K's and a better OPS+. Oh, and he was the greatest defensive player IN HISTORY at his position. Just sayin'
@baseballhall

...and another...

https://twitter.com/SammyD5674/status/16...7969760256

Quote:Sammy D
@SammyD5674
Scott Rolen gets into the Hall of Fame. A 280 hitter averaged 118 games a year. While Keith Hernandez a 2 time World Series winner, a National League MVP, an 11 time Gold Glover, 296 hitter and the greatest fielding first baseman of all time is not in. This is a travesty!

(01-25-2023 06:05 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  I agree with this tweet re. Keith Hernandez vs. Scott Rolen...

https://twitter.com/PolyesterUnis/status...6449017857

Quote:Vintage Jerseys & Hats
@PolyesterUnis
Scott Rolen was great. Keith Hernandez played the same # of seasons and had more BB's, hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves, MVP's and World Series. Plus, less K's and a better OPS+. Oh, and he was the greatest defensive player IN HISTORY at his position. Just sayin'
@baseballhall

...and another...

https://twitter.com/SammyD5674/status/16...7969760256

Quote:Sammy D
@SammyD5674
Scott Rolen gets into the Hall of Fame. A 280 hitter averaged 118 games a year. While Keith Hernandez a 2 time World Series winner, a National League MVP, an 11 time Gold Glover, 296 hitter and the greatest fielding first baseman of all time is not in. This is a travesty!

Keith was also a HECK of an actor as well! So he's got that going for him...After all he's "KEITH HERNANDEZ"!!!

(01-26-2023 04:25 PM)Musicowl1965 Wrote:  

(01-25-2023 06:05 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  I agree with this tweet re. Keith Hernandez vs. Scott Rolen...

https://twitter.com/PolyesterUnis/status...6449017857

Quote:Vintage Jerseys & Hats
@PolyesterUnis
Scott Rolen was great. Keith Hernandez played the same # of seasons and had more BB's, hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves, MVP's and World Series. Plus, less K's and a better OPS+. Oh, and he was the greatest defensive player IN HISTORY at his position. Just sayin'
@baseballhall

...and another...

https://twitter.com/SammyD5674/status/16...7969760256

Quote:Sammy D
@SammyD5674
Scott Rolen gets into the Hall of Fame. A 280 hitter averaged 118 games a year. While Keith Hernandez a 2 time World Series winner, a National League MVP, an 11 time Gold Glover, 296 hitter and the greatest fielding first baseman of all time is not in. This is a travesty!

Keith was also a HECK of an actor as well! So he's got that going for him...After all he's "KEITH HERNANDEZ"!!!

Except he doesn't know the first thing about getting to first base.

(01-25-2023 04:03 PM)2018Owl Wrote:  While I'd love to have an Owl in the Baseball HoF, you all are breezing over a nearly 20 bWAR gap between Rolen and Berkman, which is not insignificant at all. While Berkman was a somewhat better hitter than Rolen, Rolen was in an entirely different league defensively, as evidenced by Rolen having 8 Gold Gloves vs. Berkman's 0 (which is a BIG DEAL to HoF voters).

If you showed me 2 anonymous players with these guys' resumes, I would think the 70 bWAR player would likely be a lock for the HoF unless he was on steroids or cheated some other way, and that the 50 bWAR player would likely miss out unless there were some extenuating personal / injury circumstances.

I think Rolen pretty clearly belongs in the HoF (not saying anyone's disagreeing) but very surprised you all think there's that strong of an argument to be made for Berkman...

Agreed. Defense is serially underrated by most baseball fans. Rolen excelled here and I give credit to the writers in this instance for valuing his defense appropriately.