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UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
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Claw Offline
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Post: #21
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.
The Memphis model. Let basketball take you to P5. Working for us 03-weeping
01-24-2023 12:57 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #22
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.

UNLV's actual athletic performance has certainly been an anchor on its conference realignment prospects.

However, the Las Vegas market is, without question, the single biggest positive to UNLV and can't be discounted.

I've never understood the "pro competition" critique for college programs. Once again, I'm from the Midwest where we manage to watch both the Big Ten (or Notre Dame if that's your thing) AND the NFL and other pro sports at the very highest levels without any pro/college fan divide. Elsewhere, the most valuable college sports program (Texas) directly overlaps with the fan base of the most valuable NFL team (Dallas Cowboys).

The point is that any market that has any value at all HAS pro sports and other entertainment options. The two largest markets that currently aren't legitimately covered by at least one P5 school (e.g. a flagship with a broad enough fan base can deliver a market even if that flagship isn't directly in that market) are San Diego and Las Vegas. If UNLV were even halfway competent in football, they would be in a P5 league already because the number of markets of any value that don't already have P5 competition is truly only down to them and San Diego.

You make good points Frank except we're talking about a G5 pro sports market, one in a transient area. Trust me, as a UH fan you don't exist in a pro sports market pretty much unless you're in the Big Boys club. Vegas is a very touristy area but no one in Vegas on vacation is gonna say "ooo, let's go watch UNLV football," unless they're playing a name brand/ranked team.

Can you even name a G5 school with solid attendance in a pro sports market? Buffalo, Charlotte, Rice, EMU, Tulane, Temple, SDSU (when the Chargers we're there), SJSU, South Florida, FAU and FIU all either have poor have or had poor attendance.
01-24-2023 02:53 PM
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pablowow Offline
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Post: #23
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 09:10 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  As someone who is a life-long fan of a school that has clawed its way into a P5 conference, its goin to take UNLV (and Colorado State) about 10-15 years of actually being good at football and of good TV ratings before they are taken seriously as a P5 candidate.

So can you say that’s the case for Rutgers? Not all deals are the same.. but committing to excellence in football surely helps..
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 03:33 PM by pablowow.)
01-24-2023 03:33 PM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #24
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
At the very least I could see UNLV apealling to the PAC simply because they would like to play their football CCG and basketball tourneys in VEGAS.

Now you don't necessarily need UNLV in the PAC to play the CCG in Vegas, but that could get weird if UNLV ever joined the Big 12. Kinda like a PAC championship game or tourney in LA would now be weird.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 03:38 PM by goofus.)
01-24-2023 03:37 PM
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Claw Offline
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 03:37 PM)goofus Wrote:  At the very least I could see UNLV apealling to the PAC simply because they would like to play their football CCG and basketball tourneys in VEGAS.

Now you don't necessarily need UNLV in the PAC to play the CCG in Vegas, but that could get weird if UNLV ever joined the Big 12. Kinda like a PAC championship game or tourney in LA would now be weird.

You can have your tourney in Vegas this year. All you have to do is make three phone calls. By the time you make the third one, your phone will be ringing off the wall.
01-24-2023 03:40 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #26
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 02:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.

UNLV's actual athletic performance has certainly been an anchor on its conference realignment prospects.

However, the Las Vegas market is, without question, the single biggest positive to UNLV and can't be discounted.

I've never understood the "pro competition" critique for college programs. Once again, I'm from the Midwest where we manage to watch both the Big Ten (or Notre Dame if that's your thing) AND the NFL and other pro sports at the very highest levels without any pro/college fan divide. Elsewhere, the most valuable college sports program (Texas) directly overlaps with the fan base of the most valuable NFL team (Dallas Cowboys).

The point is that any market that has any value at all HAS pro sports and other entertainment options. The two largest markets that currently aren't legitimately covered by at least one P5 school (e.g. a flagship with a broad enough fan base can deliver a market even if that flagship isn't directly in that market) are San Diego and Las Vegas. If UNLV were even halfway competent in football, they would be in a P5 league already because the number of markets of any value that don't already have P5 competition is truly only down to them and San Diego.

You make good points Frank except we're talking about a G5 pro sports market, one in a transient area. Trust me, as a UH fan you don't exist in a pro sports market pretty much unless you're in the Big Boys club. Vegas is a very touristy area but no one in Vegas on vacation is gonna say "ooo, let's go watch UNLV football," unless they're playing a name brand/ranked team.

Can you even name a G5 school with solid attendance in a pro sports market? Buffalo, Charlotte, Rice, EMU, Tulane, Temple, SDSU (when the Chargers we're there), SJSU, South Florida, FAU and FIU all either have poor have or had poor attendance.

Memphis Tiger football and basketball does fairly respectably with attendance every year despite having some NBA Grizzlies competition for the Memphis citizens' entertainment dollars.

To Frank's point, seven G5 university athletic programs located in large cities with at least one pro sports franchise are potentially well suited to draw well (in football, men's hoops or both) if given a power league invite: USF, Memphis, San Diego State, SMU, Tulane, Temple and UNLV. It's worth noting that those seven 1. offer histories that do not include a full and long-standing "Group of Five stigma" (like, for example, Middle Tennessee State) and 2. have enjoyed some national level of success and notoriety in football and/or men's hoops. As such, those seven are different than most of the other members of the G5. Their urban locations could actually work in their favor if they were ever to land a P5 invite.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 11:33 PM by bill dazzle.)
01-24-2023 03:42 PM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #27
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.

The Las Vegas metro may enjoy access to all of those amenities, but what it lacks is a reliable source of domestic water. If drought in the intermountain West persists much longer, the city is going to experience some very serious disruptions in service. Sports don't mean much if you can't flush.
01-24-2023 03:51 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #28
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 03:37 PM)goofus Wrote:  At the very least I could see UNLV apealling to the PAC simply because they would like to play their football CCG and basketball tourneys in VEGAS.

Now you don't necessarily need UNLV in the PAC to play the CCG in Vegas, but that could get weird if UNLV ever joined the Big 12. Kinda like a PAC championship game or tourney in LA would now be weird.

Um. The PAC 12 just played their CCG at Allegiant Stadium in Vegas last month...and had over 61K attendance for Utah versus USC...the PAC has played their men's basketball conference tournament at T-Mobile Arena in Vegas for the past several years...
01-24-2023 03:58 PM
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Post: #29
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 12:55 PM)Claw Wrote:  Nobody watches college football in Vegas. I lived there for five years. It would make a great road trip for visiting teams, but they won't likely come back after sitting in an empty stadium the first time. The games can't live up to the other distractions.

When you are in Las Vegas, you want to be entertained. UNLV football is not entertaining. For the BYU-Notre Dame game and the Pac-12 CCG, they got over 60,000 fans for those two games. UNLV football has to win and be entertaining. Same for UNLV basketball, which was averaging over 15,000 per game a decade ago and is down to about 6,000 per game today. Both football and basketball have good athletic facilities. It is impossible to turn both around.

If you want to find college football fans in Las Vegas on a Saturday during the fall, go to one of the 68 sports books in Las Vegas. Those places are packed on a Saturday. The Las Vegas Golden Knights averaged 18,101 fans for NHL hockey last season, which was 6th best in the NHL. People will show up if you win and are entertaining.
01-24-2023 04:14 PM
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Once a Knight... Offline
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Post: #30
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 02:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.

UNLV's actual athletic performance has certainly been an anchor on its conference realignment prospects.

However, the Las Vegas market is, without question, the single biggest positive to UNLV and can't be discounted.

I've never understood the "pro competition" critique for college programs. Once again, I'm from the Midwest where we manage to watch both the Big Ten (or Notre Dame if that's your thing) AND the NFL and other pro sports at the very highest levels without any pro/college fan divide. Elsewhere, the most valuable college sports program (Texas) directly overlaps with the fan base of the most valuable NFL team (Dallas Cowboys).

The point is that any market that has any value at all HAS pro sports and other entertainment options. The two largest markets that currently aren't legitimately covered by at least one P5 school (e.g. a flagship with a broad enough fan base can deliver a market even if that flagship isn't directly in that market) are San Diego and Las Vegas. If UNLV were even halfway competent in football, they would be in a P5 league already because the number of markets of any value that don't already have P5 competition is truly only down to them and San Diego.

You make good points Frank except we're talking about a G5 pro sports market, one in a transient area. Trust me, as a UH fan you don't exist in a pro sports market pretty much unless you're in the Big Boys club. Vegas is a very touristy area but no one in Vegas on vacation is gonna say "ooo, let's go watch UNLV football," unless they're playing a name brand/ranked team.

Can you even name a G5 school with solid attendance in a pro sports market? Buffalo, Charlotte, Rice, EMU, Tulane, Temple, SDSU (when the Chargers we're there), SJSU, South Florida, FAU and FIU all either have poor have or had poor attendance.
UCF, only difference is Orlando which has NBA and MLS does not have NFL so no real football competition. Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Jacksonville Jaguars are only 1.5hrs and 2hrs away respectively though. Orlando has tons of other distractions though and is full of transient fans/tourists just like Las Vegas however.

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01-24-2023 05:34 PM
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Once a Knight... Offline
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Post: #31
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 02:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(01-23-2023 08:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If this were 1991, I'd see it. Then again, they didn't have Allegiant Stadium back then but I don't see it now.

That's the deal. If they still had a championship-level hoops program, it could have dragged the football program with it as Las Vegas grew.

Now, they have a metro area of 2 million. They have a NFL stadium, and Thomas & Mack is still a good college arena. But, they compete with the NFL, the NHL, possibly MLB (if the A's move there), and all of the things Las Vegas has to offer.

I don't see it, either.

UNLV's actual athletic performance has certainly been an anchor on its conference realignment prospects.

However, the Las Vegas market is, without question, the single biggest positive to UNLV and can't be discounted.

I've never understood the "pro competition" critique for college programs. Once again, I'm from the Midwest where we manage to watch both the Big Ten (or Notre Dame if that's your thing) AND the NFL and other pro sports at the very highest levels without any pro/college fan divide. Elsewhere, the most valuable college sports program (Texas) directly overlaps with the fan base of the most valuable NFL team (Dallas Cowboys).

The point is that any market that has any value at all HAS pro sports and other entertainment options. The two largest markets that currently aren't legitimately covered by at least one P5 school (e.g. a flagship with a broad enough fan base can deliver a market even if that flagship isn't directly in that market) are San Diego and Las Vegas. If UNLV were even halfway competent in football, they would be in a P5 league already because the number of markets of any value that don't already have P5 competition is truly only down to them and San Diego.

You make good points Frank except we're talking about a G5 pro sports market, one in a transient area. Trust me, as a UH fan you don't exist in a pro sports market pretty much unless you're in the Big Boys club. Vegas is a very touristy area but no one in Vegas on vacation is gonna say "ooo, let's go watch UNLV football," unless they're playing a name brand/ranked team.

Can you even name a G5 school with solid attendance in a pro sports market? Buffalo, Charlotte, Rice, EMU, Tulane, Temple, SDSU (when the Chargers we're there), SJSU, South Florida, FAU and FIU all either have poor have or had poor attendance.
Cincinnati is the other one that comes to mind. Along with UCF however they are no longer G5. ?‍♂️

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01-24-2023 05:36 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #32
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 03:33 PM)pablowow Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 09:10 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  As someone who is a life-long fan of a school that has clawed its way into a P5 conference, its goin to take UNLV (and Colorado State) about 10-15 years of actually being good at football and of good TV ratings before they are taken seriously as a P5 candidate.

So can you say that’s the case for Rutgers? Not all deals are the same.. but committing to excellence in football surely helps..

Rutgers actually had a pretty strong run from 2005-2011 before they got the B10 invite. They were #7 in the country in 2006 IIRC and lost to my Bearcats.

Two, Rutgers benefitted from the fact the B10 wanted to get the carriage fees for the Big Ten Network for heavily populated NY/NJ. Assuming the PAC10 gives all the media rights to Amazon or it is split to different media partners, the 3.25M people living in Nevada is not going to move the needle the same way Rutger's media market did.
01-24-2023 05:45 PM
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Once a Knight... Offline
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Post: #33
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 05:45 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 03:33 PM)pablowow Wrote:  
(01-24-2023 09:10 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  As someone who is a life-long fan of a school that has clawed its way into a P5 conference, its goin to take UNLV (and Colorado State) about 10-15 years of actually being good at football and of good TV ratings before they are taken seriously as a P5 candidate.

So can you say that’s the case for Rutgers? Not all deals are the same.. but committing to excellence in football surely helps..

Rutgers actually had a pretty strong run from 2005-2011 before they got the B10 invite. They were #7 in the country in 2006 IIRC and lost to my Bearcats.

Two, Rutgers benefitted from the fact the B10 wanted to get the carriage fees for the Big Ten Network for heavily populated NY/NJ. Assuming the PAC10 gives all the media rights to Amazon or it is split to different media partners, the 3.25M people living in Nevada is not going to move the needle the same way Rutger's media market did.
All well and good, Rutgers was never G5 though. They were in a power conference (Big East).

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01-24-2023 05:58 PM
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
BYU and Utah outdraw UNLV in Vegas.

Las Vegas is best thought of as a city in Southern Utah that hosts a large traveling circus.
01-24-2023 06:41 PM
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 06:41 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  BYU and Utah outdraw UNLV in Vegas.

Las Vegas is best thought of as a city in Southern Utah that hosts a large traveling circus.

Where the Mormons go to hope they don't run into other Mormons 03-wink
01-24-2023 06:46 PM
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
Why avoid what you built?
https://youtu.be/Luvy-FzehUk
01-24-2023 07:02 PM
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
Thanks for posting this.

But as for UNLV's AD ... I am "eyeing" a Ferrari 812 GTS.

Too bad my bank account is just a few hundred thousand short of being able to buy it, LOL.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 07:06 PM by quo vadis.)
01-24-2023 07:05 PM
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RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
(01-24-2023 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  ....

I've never understood the "pro competition" critique for college programs.
....

Too much can be made of it in expansion discussions, but pro/college jostling for fans within a market is a thing.

Ever wonder why the 'Canes wear a U?
01-24-2023 08:20 PM
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Post: #39
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
If by some miracle the new commissioner manages to actually make the PAC-12 network profitable, the PAC would probably get Nevada to be considered a home market due to the total sum of the PAC fans who already live in the state. At least the PAC should have been able to get Nevada carriage fees before the departure of USC and UCLA, but after their departure it's a little more debatable. Nevada's not that big of a state anyway, and it really wouldn't be a new market for the PAC.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 08:58 PM by Poster.)
01-24-2023 08:57 PM
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Post: #40
RE: UNLV AD Eyes Potential Move to Power 5 Conference
The PACN did get “in footprint” carriage rates for LV.

I don’t know if the B1G will with only USCLA.
01-24-2023 09:26 PM
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