(01-21-2023 10:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  SMU is redundant as long as TCU is in the Big XII. So is South Florida.

I don't think USF is nearly as redundant with UCF as SMU is with TCU. Not sure USF is redundant at all.

Then again, I'm partial to USF. :)

Adding USF would make more sense for the Big 12 than adding SMU. And that is not a slight of SMU as it would be a very solid addition to the Pac 12.

(01-21-2023 07:02 PM)GreenFreakUAB Wrote:  ...which I guess would primarily be a 'pre-emptive strike' to prevent the PAC from nabbing SMU?

Not sure how the 'additive' media deal works for the Big XII concerning a 'non-P5' - the scuttlebutt was that the deal allows for 'additive' P5 teams to come in at full share, but not 'G5's... even so, it would seem that SMU would have about the same 'deal' from either conference, and, everything else being equal, would probably prefer the conference they are surrounded by.

TCU folks might not like it, but I think they play every year anyway for the Big Skillet or whatever, so... might as well become conference mates (again).

Why would the B-12 add any G5 schools at this point and dilute current school payouts when the G5 schools add no value to their current TV contract. Wait until the Pac potentially destructs and sweep in for 4 to 6 schools (Corner Schools plus or minus Cal and Stanford) when it happens, if it happens. G5 schools will still be waiting in the wind if the Pac-10 remains a viable conference on the West Coast in the years to come.

With 12 schools now, the Big 12 can be patient and wait until someone that adds value is available.

(01-22-2023 09:00 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 10:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  SMU is redundant as long as TCU is in the Big XII. So is South Florida.

I don't think USF is nearly as redundant with UCF as SMU is with TCU. Not sure USF is redundant at all.

Then again, I'm partial to USF. :)

It's a very different situation. USF is the 5th of only 7 FBS schools in Florida, and they've been on people's radar for the p5 for years. They're clearly next to move up if a 5th Florida school goes p5. SMU is the 7th of 12 in Texas, and they haven't been on the radar for very long. Normally you'd say that SMU is far greater than a school like UTSA with their barely more than a decade football history, but both the big 12 has every city other than SA in Texas covered already. So, specifically to the big 12, SMU is not particularly interesting right now, but to the Pac or ACC down the road? Probably very interesting, or as a backfill down the road if things change and the big 12 gets raided.

(01-22-2023 09:00 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 10:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  SMU is redundant as long as TCU is in the Big XII. So is South Florida.

I don't think USF is nearly as redundant with UCF as SMU is with TCU. Not sure USF is redundant at all.

Then again, I'm partial to USF. :)

You’re right, it’s not nearly redundant but the way I see it is Orlando is an extension of Tampa-St Petersburg. The former has the NBA and MLS teams while the latter has the NFL, MLB and NHL teams. In the BCS era, USF was in a AQ conference while UCF was in a nonAQ conference. In the CFP era the sides have switched.

Anyway, the point still remains the same. SMU and USF are not going anywhere. They’ll still be in the AAC in case the Pac-12 and ACC need replacements once the B1G and SEC raid both in the future.

If the Big 12 was going to add 2 more, USF and Memphis would be more sensible adds.

(01-22-2023 09:03 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Adding USF would make more sense for the Big 12 than adding SMU. And that is not a slight of SMU as it would be a very solid addition to the Pac 12.

The USF-UCF rivalry makes having the pair far more advantageous, for any conference, than having either by itself.

(01-21-2023 08:19 PM)World Wide Swag Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 08:11 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:07 PM)World Wide Swag Wrote:  If the Big 12 wanted to make a pre-emptive strike on the Pac, they would take SDSU. I love SMU, but we don't add much that they don't already have.

This. The more I read, the more value I see in SDSU. San Diego County has more than 3 million people. San Diego is the #28 DMA. There is one major league professional franchise there, and it's not a football team. SDSU is an academic fit in the Big 12.

Yormark talks about the fourth time zone, and SDSU is the way to get it. The B12 should strike while the Pac is trying to figure out what it wants to be after USC/UCLA are gone.

By doing this, the B12 becomes a coast-to-coast conference, and locks the Pac out of SoCal.

SMU would be fine in the B12, but the B12 doesn't need them. TCU and Baylor would block them, regardless.

The Big 12 can't afford to be a coast-to-coast conference. They don't have Big Ten money. They can't be sending non-revenue sports from Morgantown and Cincinnati to San Diego.

I'm not sure that distance is actually any further than Rice to Honolulu, which was the territory the WAC covered from 1996-2000. Then, in 2000, the WAC added even more geographically distant Louisiana Tech. Rice left the WAC after 2004, but Louisiana Tech and Hawaii remained conferences mates all the way through 2011.

From 2005-2021, Conference USA stretched from Huntington, WV to El Paso, Texas. Not exactly coast to coast, but they were working on much less money than what the Big 12 is currently making.

The original conferences that spanded a zillion miles were actually non-power conferences. And they weren't even making as much money as what non-power conferences are making today, let alone what power conferences make today.

The Big 12 is currently openly trying to add Arizona and Arizona State, which are close enough to the West Coast.

I don't think that San Diego State should be added to the Big 12, but travel costs aren't the primary reason why I feel that way.

I think a lot of fans are underestimating the effect the new 12 team playoff is having on expansion. Since the new 12 team playoff model was approved, there has been zero expansion movement within the FBS. All the rumors about further B1G expansion have stopped, and everyone appears to be in a holding pattern.

This new playoff model guarantees access to all of the P5's. So now, any expansion has to make financial sense. There is no good reason to add more programs unless they bring more money or better exposure to a conference, because any new P5 programs would only diminish the possibilities of current members reaching the playoff and become rivals in the arms race of college football. In short, the 10 remaining PAC programs will have an easier path to the playoffs, by staying at 10 and not expanding. The same is true for the other P5 conferences. Maybe in a decade the dynamics will change, GOR's will expire, and/or the 12 team playoff will be tweaked, and we might see movement.

(01-21-2023 08:11 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:07 PM)World Wide Swag Wrote:  If the Big 12 wanted to make a pre-emptive strike on the Pac, they would take SDSU. I love SMU, but we don't add much that they don't already have.

This. The more I read, the more value I see in SDSU. San Diego County has more than 3 million people. San Diego is the #28 DMA. There is one major league professional franchise there, and it's not a football team. SDSU is an academic fit in the Big 12.

Yormark talks about the fourth time zone, and SDSU is the way to get it. The B12 should strike while the Pac is trying to figure out what it wants to be after USC/UCLA are gone.

By doing this, the B12 becomes a coast-to-coast conference, and locks the Pac out of SoCal.

SMU would be fine in the B12, but the B12 doesn't need them. TCU and Baylor would block them, regardless.

The Big 12 would be even smarter to add Fresno.
1) better football
2) culturally and historically aligned. The valley isn’t derided as greater Oklahoma for a reason.
3) more people in the SJV than in the state of Oklahoma 4.2M versus 4.0M
4) population is already disinclined to support the coastal elites.
5) large support for wrestling and equestrian both big 12 sports

SDSU isn’t bad but for the Big12 Fresno is better.

(01-22-2023 05:11 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 08:11 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:07 PM)World Wide Swag Wrote:  If the Big 12 wanted to make a pre-emptive strike on the Pac, they would take SDSU. I love SMU, but we don't add much that they don't already have.

This. The more I read, the more value I see in SDSU. San Diego County has more than 3 million people. San Diego is the #28 DMA. There is one major league professional franchise there, and it's not a football team. SDSU is an academic fit in the Big 12.

Yormark talks about the fourth time zone, and SDSU is the way to get it. The B12 should strike while the Pac is trying to figure out what it wants to be after USC/UCLA are gone.

By doing this, the B12 becomes a coast-to-coast conference, and locks the Pac out of SoCal.

SMU would be fine in the B12, but the B12 doesn't need them. TCU and Baylor would block them, regardless.

The Big 12 would be even smarter to add Fresno.
1) better football
2) culturally and historically aligned. The valley isn’t derided as greater Oklahoma for a reason.
3) more people in the SJV than in the state of Oklahoma 4.2M versus 4.0M
4) population is already disinclined to support the coastal elites.
5) large support for wrestling and equestrian both big 12 sports

SDSU isn’t bad but for the Big12 Fresno is better.

XII taking both Fresno St and San Diego St would get them into California (obviously) and force the PAC to sit at 10 or move East unless they wanted to take any MWC schools.

(01-22-2023 05:11 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 08:11 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:07 PM)World Wide Swag Wrote:  If the Big 12 wanted to make a pre-emptive strike on the Pac, they would take SDSU. I love SMU, but we don't add much that they don't already have.

This. The more I read, the more value I see in SDSU. San Diego County has more than 3 million people. San Diego is the #28 DMA. There is one major league professional franchise there, and it's not a football team. SDSU is an academic fit in the Big 12.

Yormark talks about the fourth time zone, and SDSU is the way to get it. The B12 should strike while the Pac is trying to figure out what it wants to be after USC/UCLA are gone.

By doing this, the B12 becomes a coast-to-coast conference, and locks the Pac out of SoCal.

SMU would be fine in the B12, but the B12 doesn't need them. TCU and Baylor would block them, regardless.

The Big 12 would be even smarter to add Fresno.
1) better football
2) culturally and historically aligned. The valley isn’t derided as greater Oklahoma for a reason.
3) more people in the SJV than in the state of Oklahoma 4.2M versus 4.0M
4) population is already disinclined to support the coastal elites.
5) large support for wrestling and equestrian both big 12 sports

SDSU isn’t bad but for the Big12 Fresno is better.

No offense but why would you think that even registers on the Big12 expansion radar?


All that really matters is $$$, will or can Fresno make the Big12 schools more money.

No the big12 will not offer SMU. SMU should do everything it can to get into the pac12. If the pac12 stays together and holds, SMU could find itself in a better spot than big12 schools, travel not with standing.

The pac12 still provides valuable unique window that networks will find attractive.The conference still has recognizable brand universities. Yes the BIG has laid claim to LA but there are markets outside LA in the west coast that will be uniquely pac10.

The big12 on the other hand lands squarely in SEC territory. All schools added by the big12 are considered located within the SEC footprint. With inclusion of OU and UT, the echo chamber will most certainly be the SEC in with ABC/ espn networks.

USF would bring the San Francisco market though; surely if Gonzaga leaves the WCC USF should consider the Pac-12....

(01-23-2023 12:21 AM)rtist Wrote:  USF would bring the San Francisco market though; surely if Gonzaga leaves the WCC USF should consider the Pac-12....

Umm, rtist, I think that they are talking about the University of South Florida (located in Tampa/St.Petersburg), not the University of San Francisco (located in the Bay Area).

lol… absolutely not

(01-22-2023 09:00 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 10:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  SMU is redundant as long as TCU is in the Big XII. So is South Florida.

I don't think USF is nearly as redundant with UCF as SMU is with TCU. Not sure USF is redundant at all.

Then again, I'm partial to USF. :)

While I am in no hurry to add USF, I agree with you. Tampa and Orlando are their own large markets, And it would make an easy travel partner.

I wouldn't rule anything out. The BIG XII Commish seems hell bent to expand across all time zones. That vision may override the temporary financial evaluations. I think he believes that expansion will grow revenues on its own in the long run.

The road to survival for the PAC is to add SDSU and SMU - So Cal and Dallas/Texas market.

IT won't add $$ to media deal but is huge for recruiting. Note endowment/academics SMU is near top of Pac 12.

B12 should absolutely go after SDSU