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Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
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Milwaukee Online
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Post: #21
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
.

Here are some other contenders, depending on whether or not they're double-digit seeds:

New Mexico (#31 NET) is 16-2 and has beaten (#8) St. Mary's and #30 SDSU.

SDSU (#30) has beaten (#28) Ohio State and BYU and played close games vs. (#8) St. Mary's and (#27) Arkansas.

Memphis (#45) could certainly end up as a #10 or #11 seed. They've beaten (#13) Auburn and (#49) TAMU.
01-20-2023 05:05 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that
01-20-2023 12:53 PM
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WhoseHouse? Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
(01-20-2023 12:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that

I think thats subject to debate. I know some people want to give the A10, AAC, MWC, and WCC the major conference tag but to me those leagues are the quintessential mid-major conferences. I think the American was the closest at one point to really earning the major tag but after losing UConn and now Cincy and UH, they no longer really fit the bill. The MWC for its part is clearly the best mid-major and it has a number of respectable programs. However, its also only generated two S16 appearances in the last decade (SDSU and Nevada).
01-20-2023 01:25 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
(01-20-2023 01:25 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 12:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that

I think thats subject to debate. I know some people want to give the A10, AAC, MWC, and WCC the major conference tag but to me those leagues are the quintessential mid-major conferences. I think the American was the closest at one point to really earning the major tag but after losing UConn and now Cincy and UH, they no longer really fit the bill. The MWC for its part is clearly the best mid-major and it has a number of respectable programs. However, its also only generated two S16 appearances in the last decade (SDSU and Nevada).

The term "mid-major" suggests it is between two things: major leagues and minor leagues. In my view, they would indeed be in a category between the six major hoops conferences and the one-bid conferences. But because nobody wants to be called "minor league" that term appears to be understood to refer to the "one bid" conferences, leaving the four truly mid level conferences in a linguistic no mans land.
01-20-2023 01:38 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
(01-20-2023 01:25 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 12:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that

I think thats subject to debate. I know some people want to give the A10, AAC, MWC, and WCC the major conference tag but to me those leagues are the quintessential mid-major conferences. I think the American was the closest at one point to really earning the major tag but after losing UConn and now Cincy and UH, they no longer really fit the bill. The MWC for its part is clearly the best mid-major and it has a number of respectable programs. However, its also only generated two S16 appearances in the last decade (SDSU and Nevada).


New Mexico, San Diego State and Memphis (for examples) are not mid-major programs. You could stick them in the OVC and they would still be major programs in terms of resources, coach history, size of fan base, facilities, etc. Same thing for Gonzaga.

Your Houston men's hoops program is not a member of a power league. But it clearly is a major program.

Throw the league affiliation component out the window when discussing individual programs.
01-20-2023 01:38 PM
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WhoseHouse? Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
(01-20-2023 01:38 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 01:25 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 12:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that

I think thats subject to debate. I know some people want to give the A10, AAC, MWC, and WCC the major conference tag but to me those leagues are the quintessential mid-major conferences. I think the American was the closest at one point to really earning the major tag but after losing UConn and now Cincy and UH, they no longer really fit the bill. The MWC for its part is clearly the best mid-major and it has a number of respectable programs. However, its also only generated two S16 appearances in the last decade (SDSU and Nevada).


New Mexico, San Diego State and Memphis (for examples) are not mid-major programs. You could stick them in the OVC and they would still be major programs in terms of resources, coach history, size of fan base, facilities, etc. Same thing for Gonzaga.

Your Houston men's hoops program is not a member of a power league. But it clearly is a major program.

Throw the league affiliation component out the window when discussing individual programs.

Respectfully I have to disagree Bill. To me the terms major, mid-major, and low-major are not program descriptors. They're league descriptors. You're absolutely right to point out that programs like Memphis and Houston are great programs. Individually both programs probably make it in most peoples top 50 list all-time. But their league affiliation is unquestionably that of a mid-major. And the reason I believe my interpretation of these terms is correct is because we would never say a program in the Big 10/12 was a mid-major. Regardless of their level of success/support/etc. Take Nebraska for example. They have 7 tournament appearances all-time and they've never won a game in the NCAAT. If these terms were really meant to be used to describe a program rather than a league, there's no world where Nebraska could be considered a major program. But no one would ever call Nebraska a mid-major. Now people misuse these terms and because of that mid-major has become something of a dirty word but I view every program in the American or the WCC as mid-majors. And that includes Cincy, Gonzaga, Houston, and Memphis. All of these programs are top 50 programs but there leagues are definitively mid-major leagues. Now separately, the American at its peak (which I consider to be 2017-2018 season), was dangerously close to deserving the major conference tag. It had probably 6 top 50-60 programs and another couple programs like Tulsa and SMU that were respectable as well. What held it back was two things, one was a lack of postseason success (zero S16s after UConn's title run the first year of the league) and the other was the fact that the bottom third of the league had nowhere near the level of success, support, and tradition as the other two thirds of the league.
01-20-2023 02:27 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
(01-20-2023 02:27 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 01:38 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 01:25 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(01-20-2023 12:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  New Mexico and San Diego State are not mid-majors. Certainly, no one would be completely shocked if they made the Final Four like George Mason, VCU or Loyola. They're making too much noise during the season for that

I think thats subject to debate. I know some people want to give the A10, AAC, MWC, and WCC the major conference tag but to me those leagues are the quintessential mid-major conferences. I think the American was the closest at one point to really earning the major tag but after losing UConn and now Cincy and UH, they no longer really fit the bill. The MWC for its part is clearly the best mid-major and it has a number of respectable programs. However, its also only generated two S16 appearances in the last decade (SDSU and Nevada).


New Mexico, San Diego State and Memphis (for examples) are not mid-major programs. You could stick them in the OVC and they would still be major programs in terms of resources, coach history, size of fan base, facilities, etc. Same thing for Gonzaga.

Your Houston men's hoops program is not a member of a power league. But it clearly is a major program.

Throw the league affiliation component out the window when discussing individual programs.

Respectfully I have to disagree Bill. To me the terms major, mid-major, and low-major are not program descriptors. They're league descriptors. You're absolutely right to point out that programs like Memphis and Houston are great programs. Individually both programs probably make it in most peoples top 50 list all-time. But their league affiliation is unquestionably that of a mid-major. And the reason I believe my interpretation of these terms is correct is because we would never say a program in the Big 10/12 was a mid-major. Regardless of their level of success/support/etc. Take Nebraska for example. They have 7 tournament appearances all-time and they've never won a game in the NCAAT. If these terms were really meant to be used to describe a program rather than a league, there's no world where Nebraska could be considered a major program. But no one would ever call Nebraska a mid-major. Now people misuse these terms and because of that mid-major has become something of a dirty word but I view every program in the American or the WCC as mid-majors. And that includes Cincy, Gonzaga, Houston, and Memphis. All of these programs are top 50 programs but there leagues are definitively mid-major leagues. Now separately, the American at its peak (which I consider to be 2017-2018 season), was dangerously close to deserving the major conference tag. It had probably 6 top 50-60 programs and another couple programs like Tulsa and SMU that were respectable as well. What held it back was two things, one was a lack of postseason success (zero S16s after UConn's title run the first year of the league) and the other was the fact that the bottom third of the league had nowhere near the level of success, support, and tradition as the other two thirds of the league.

I don't use "major" (or "mid-major") solely as a "league descriptor" but some folks do. It is simply awkward to refer to Houston, Memphis, Cincinnati, etc. as "mid-major programs in every respect" — which is what such a label suggests.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is simple: Memphis and Houston are "major programs" that are members of a "mid-major conference." I can live with that, W-House.

Good luck to your Cougars the rest of the season (except when they play Memphis, of course).

04-cheers
01-20-2023 03:30 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
By the way, I forgot about Wichita State's run to the Final Four (granted, they were a 9-seed which doesn't change it by much), so it's actually less than every 5 years. Count in Butler and we're really overdue for a random middie in the Final Four.
01-24-2023 03:25 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Random double-digit seeded mid-major in the Final Four?
It is clear that there is no universally accepted terminology to describe NCAA D-I basketball conferences. As in football, there are three tiers in basketball. Football has the A5 (or P5 if you prefer), other FBS conferences, and FCS.

In basketball, most people would consider the Big East to be a power conference at the same level as the A5 conferences. The second tier are perennial multi-bid leagues, and the third tier are perennial one-bid leagues. When I say perennial, I mean in the preponderance of years. Occasionally a multi-bid league will only get one bid, and a one-bid league will get more than one.

So my three tiers are "power", "multi-bid" and "one-bid". Today I consider the AAC, MWC, A-10 and WCC to be multi-bid based on historical performance, but they are all closer to one-bid than they are to power, so further realignment and performance declines could change my mind. And, in the other direction, the MVC has the potential to return to multi-bid status.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2023 09:24 AM by ken d.)
01-24-2023 09:23 AM
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