(01-10-2023 11:36 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 10:37 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:27 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Without knowing the particulars, including why the documents we're there, why they were classified, what information was in those documents, and the level of classification... There does seem to be one significant difference between Trump and Biden here. Trump resisted efforts by the national archives to retrieve the documents and in fact claim they belong to him. Biden's lawyers revealed the discovery of those documents and took measures to return them.

3. Bidens classified documents included those with human intel.

4. We have yet to assess whether these classified documents Biden* grossly mishandled put national security at risk. We already know the ones Trump had did not. But because of #3, we can almost safely assume it did.

You know these things, how exactly?

It was reported by your overlords at cnn.

Well, apparently the talking points are now out.

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 08:01 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 07:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

We also just don't have enough information yet. Who took the documents there?, who left them there?, etc.

And by all means, search any place you like...just do it through the courts as was done with trump. Although since this was reported to the NA and the documents were immediately returned, there's likely no need for a subpoena...at least at this point.

If Biden or anyone else broke any laws or didn't follow proper procedures, by all means, they need held accountable.

In the mean time, a trump-appointed guy is heading the investigation.

Are you familiar with the phrase "The best defense is a good offense"?

Nice goodwill move of self reporting: See we are telling on ourselves so if we find more things like this, you can rest assured we will report them.... Wink Wink


Obstruction or not, a law broken like this is a law broken - no?


I could give a rats arse about the theatre on either side of this. The DOJ had better make sure that Biden does not have any more than just the self disclosed.

BE CONSISTENT. I don't even care what that ends up being as long as it is reasonably similar in response.

The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

Can we see a copy of that "letter under oath"?

BREAKING: Biden has contacted Trump.

Quote:Dear Don,

Please consider the documents in Pennsylvania for me and think them unclassified.

I just can't think clearly enough to do it myself.

I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Joe

(01-10-2023 11:39 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 08:01 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  Are you familiar with the phrase "The best defense is a good offense"?

Nice goodwill move of self reporting: See we are telling on ourselves so if we find more things like this, you can rest assured we will report them.... Wink Wink


Obstruction or not, a law broken like this is a law broken - no?


I could give a rats arse about the theatre on either side of this. The DOJ had better make sure that Biden does not have any more than just the self disclosed.

BE CONSISTENT. I don't even care what that ends up being as long as it is reasonably similar in response.

The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

I would be pretty suprised if there is not a legal federal document signed somewhere from both Obama and Biden indicating that the National Archives has all of the Obama Administration documents.

Tell you what -- go find it and report back to us on that.

(01-10-2023 12:13 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 08:01 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  Are you familiar with the phrase "The best defense is a good offense"?

Nice goodwill move of self reporting: See we are telling on ourselves so if we find more things like this, you can rest assured we will report them.... Wink Wink


Obstruction or not, a law broken like this is a law broken - no?


I could give a rats arse about the theatre on either side of this. The DOJ had better make sure that Biden does not have any more than just the self disclosed.

BE CONSISTENT. I don't even care what that ends up being as long as it is reasonably similar in response.

The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

Can we see a copy of that "letter under oath"?

Its in the filings in the Mar a Lago case as an exhibit.

Been linked to more than a few times in these forums.

So yes, you can see it. Look it up and peruse it to the extent you can get your jollies with.

(01-10-2023 12:35 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:13 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

Can we see a copy of that "letter under oath"?

Its in the filings in the Mar a Lago case as an exhibit.

Been linked to more than a few times in these forums.

So yes, you can see it. Look it up and peruse it to the extent you can get your jollies with.

When will they arrest Trump?

(01-10-2023 12:35 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:13 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

Can we see a copy of that "letter under oath"?

Its in the filings in the Mar a Lago case as an exhibit.

Been linked to more than a few times in these forums.

So yes, you can see it. Look it up and peruse it to the extent you can get your jollies with.

Perhaps you can link it, because searching is turning up nothing. Even google is trying to hide it.

Has Biden been arrested yet?

Sorry, had to be done.

(01-10-2023 12:47 PM)mlb Wrote:  Has Biden been arrested yet?

Sorry, had to be done.

As if Biden or anyone on his staff or in his family will EVER be arrested.

Apples to oranges.

(01-10-2023 12:49 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:47 PM)mlb Wrote:  Has Biden been arrested yet?

Sorry, had to be done.

As if Biden or anyone on his staff or in his family will EVER be arrested.

Apples to oranges.

Change Biden to any president, and you've got it.

(01-10-2023 12:50 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:49 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:47 PM)mlb Wrote:  Has Biden been arrested yet?

Sorry, had to be done.

As if Biden or anyone on his staff or in his family will EVER be arrested.

Apples to oranges.

Change Biden to any president, and you've got it.

Quite true....

....including Trump

(01-10-2023 11:36 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 10:37 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:27 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Without knowing the particulars, including why the documents we're there, why they were classified, what information was in those documents, and the level of classification... There does seem to be one significant difference between Trump and Biden here. Trump resisted efforts by the national archives to retrieve the documents and in fact claim they belong to him. Biden's lawyers revealed the discovery of those documents and took measures to return them.

3. Bidens classified documents included those with human intel.

4. We have yet to assess whether these classified documents Biden* grossly mishandled put national security at risk. We already know the ones Trump had did not. But because of #3, we can almost safely assume it did.

You know these things, how exactly?

Yes. Be nice to see a link to the source. I've looked and haven't found that.

(01-09-2023 06:58 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  It's interesting the National Archives didn't know they were missing.

Crickets

Biden has an out due to his mental disability.

(01-10-2023 12:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:39 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:02 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:40 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The issue of the level of charging, if at all, is addressed in DOJ guidelines. It basically says, on the issue of charging the crime of keeping documents that are subject to national defense secrets, the decision to charge, and the level of charge, is affected by the level of cooperation by the party.

Trump blew off subpoenas, had his attorney tell a falsehood when finally turning over a small portion of the documents, resisted every effort to allow a search of the 'document bunker', and generally obstructed the effort at every turn to get the documents.

Biden's staff seems to have self-reported, and there is no indication of obstruction of follow up or continued looks into the matter. If you are aware that Biden's staff has obstructed this in a similar manner, please do tell.

So, from the perspective of charging, or obtaining a warrant, there do seem to be some not so minor differences.

If Biden and his staff obstruct in the same manner, by all means move against them in the same manner.

If the quantity of items of appropriate documents are at question, by all means move against them in the same manner.

Without us re-hashing 100+ pages of measuring our pogo sticks...

A few differences I'm seeing seem to be:

NARA contacted the Trump team in Jan 2022 about some possible missing records and boxes were returned.

Then in June 2022 the DOJ met with Trump's legal team about additional missing materials

Between June and August negotiations broke down. Early August DOJ got the warrant and raided Mar a Lago.

Since then there's been numerous leaks that have been found inaccurate on what was recovered. The Trump team also hired a team to ensure there were no more documents and found some and self reported.

It seems that the NARA didn't know these documents were missing or nobody prodded them to look for them considering Biden was out of the office in January 2017.

Mar a Lago had a secure safe which on one of the visits inspectors told the Trump team that they needed a new lock on the safe which by all reports they complied.

Biden's documents were found at an office at the University of Pennsylvania. Doubt there was even a lock.

Another thing I'm seeing was that usually the DOJ isn't this aggressive with retrieving materials but Biden waved that courtesy when pursuing Trump.

My theory neither men knew they had these documents and neither will be prosecuted to the letter of the law like you or I would be.

You missed the letter under oath saying that no more documents existed --- when they did. That itself the basis of three rather serious charges.

The level of obstruction by Trump (in the non-legal subject definition) was astronomical. They literally lied under oath saying there were no more, and they literally refused the DOJ permission to search the trove.

So no, there is very little equivalence in that dimension.

I would be pretty suprised if there is not a legal federal document signed somewhere from both Obama and Biden indicating that the National Archives has all of the Obama Administration documents.

Tell you what -- go find it and report back to us on that.

Not my job---but it would be one of the very first things any competent investigation would look for---and we all know that the Biden DOJ will investigate this every bit as aggressively as they did the Trump case, right? Because you are a HUGE believer that this DOJ is a super trustworthy, super competent, super truthful, fully ethical non-political organization that would never ever show favoritism or lie.

(01-10-2023 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:36 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 10:37 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:27 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Without knowing the particulars, including why the documents we're there, why they were classified, what information was in those documents, and the level of classification... There does seem to be one significant difference between Trump and Biden here. Trump resisted efforts by the national archives to retrieve the documents and in fact claim they belong to him. Biden's lawyers revealed the discovery of those documents and took measures to return them.

3. Bidens classified documents included those with human intel.

4. We have yet to assess whether these classified documents Biden* grossly mishandled put national security at risk. We already know the ones Trump had did not. But because of #3, we can almost safely assume it did.

You know these things, how exactly?

It was reported by your overlords at cnn.

Not only are they not my overlords, I don't even watch them. But apparently, you do, and believe them. Speaks volumes that you seem to take them at gospel when it suits your needs.

(01-10-2023 01:29 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 11:36 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 10:37 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-10-2023 09:27 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Without knowing the particulars, including why the documents we're there, why they were classified, what information was in those documents, and the level of classification... There does seem to be one significant difference between Trump and Biden here. Trump resisted efforts by the national archives to retrieve the documents and in fact claim they belong to him. Biden's lawyers revealed the discovery of those documents and took measures to return them.

3. Bidens classified documents included those with human intel.

4. We have yet to assess whether these classified documents Biden* grossly mishandled put national security at risk. We already know the ones Trump had did not. But because of #3, we can almost safely assume it did.

You know these things, how exactly?

It was reported by your overlords at cnn.

Not only are they not my overlords, I don't even watch them. But apparently, you do, and believe them. Speaks volumes that you seem to take them at gospel when it suits your needs.

Nobody takes CNN (the Concocted News Network) seriously anymore.

Biden* literally lied about it sitting in the place where he illegally had the classified documents.