(01-07-2023 10:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 08:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 07:49 PM)Porcine Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 07:27 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 06:55 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Did the forgotten four make any attempt to save the SWC or did they all jump on the first available lifeboat?

Yes, and it mainly involved wrangling Tulane and Memphis. There were meetings and research, etc. Ultimately, Houston got in with the Metro/GMW schools and the other schools went west.

Too bad CUSA didn't take all four and maybe Tulsa, too. It would have saved a lot of trouble.

The C-USA merger was very much a basketball motivated move. Taking in the SWC-4 & Tulsa could have built them a nice football league in 1996 but football wasn’t at the forefront of the decision making.

No it wasn't. It was an all-sports motivated move in which creating a football league was of paramount importance. Otherwise, they would have stuck in their respective conferences, which was split off from the Metro in the first place.

Can you really call a 12-member conference where only 6 teams play FBS football a football motivated league? Why bring Charlotte, St Louis, DePaul, and Marquette in if this was a football league?

This was a have your cake and eat it to move. The mass exodus of Indy programs to conferences scared these schools into creating a football home for their teams but at its heart, C-USA 1.0 was a hoops conference that just happened to have enough football teams to award a trophy.

(01-07-2023 10:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-07-2023 10:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 08:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 07:49 PM)Porcine Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 07:27 PM)esayem Wrote:  Yes, and it mainly involved wrangling Tulane and Memphis. There were meetings and research, etc. Ultimately, Houston got in with the Metro/GMW schools and the other schools went west.

Too bad CUSA didn't take all four and maybe Tulsa, too. It would have saved a lot of trouble.

The C-USA merger was very much a basketball motivated move. Taking in the SWC-4 & Tulsa could have built them a nice football league in 1996 but football wasn’t at the forefront of the decision making.

No it wasn't. It was an all-sports motivated move in which creating a football league was of paramount importance. Otherwise, they would have stuck in their respective conferences, which was split off from the Metro in the first place.

Can you really call a 12-member conference where only 6 teams play FBS football a football motivated league? Why bring Charlotte, St Louis, DePaul, and Marquette in if this was a football league?

This was a have your cake and eat it to move. The mass exodus of Indy programs to conferences scared these schools into creating a football home for their teams but at its heart, C-USA 1.0 was a hoops conference that just happened to have enough football teams to award a trophy.

No, you're wrong. There were ongoing concerns by Metro schools with football programs to find a conference that sponsored the sport. This wasn't a new issue all of the sudden in the 90's. UAB was planning to move to 1-A and Houston was delayed a year in joining. South Florida had designs on starting a football program. They saw what the Big East did and thought they could replicate it.

(01-06-2023 04:26 PM)johnintx Wrote:  Yep. Which leads to another alternate scenario: The WAC would have stopped at 12, and the Front Range schools would have found a way to play each other every year. No Denver airport meeting, no Mountain West.

The biggest question marks with C-USA being an effective three-way merger is would UTEP still go to C-USA in 2005, and would TCU go to the WAC? Would it preclude, delay, or even accelerate Army and/or South Florida playing football in C-USA?

C-USA 2001:
West - TCU, SMU, Rice, Houston, Tulane, Tulsa
East - Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Southern Miss, East Carolina*, UAB
Non-football - DePaul, Marquette, Saint Louis, South Florida, (joins for football in 2003), Charlotte

WAC 2001:
Pacific - San Diego State, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV, BYU, Hawaii
Mountain - Utah, Wyoming, Colorado State, Air Force, New Mexico, UTEP

Sun Belt 2001:
North Texas, Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Middle Tennessee, New Mexico State, Idaho*, Utah State*, Nevada*, Boise State* (non-football: Western Kentucky, South Alabama, Little Rock, New Orleans)

In 2005 C-USA loses DePaul, Marquette, Saint Louis, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Louisville, South Florida, and football-affiliate Army. East Carolina becomes a full member. UCF and Marshall join for all sports. The Sun Belt adds FAU and FIU to go to 12 in football (Troy and ULM remain independent).

In 2009, Troy joins the Sun Belt for all sports, and WKU joins in football, giving the Sun Belt 14 in football and 15 in basketball. New Orleans eventually bows out putting the Sun Belt at 14/14.

The WAC replaces Utah and BYU with Nevada and Boise State in 2011. TCU goes from Conference USA to the Big 12, and is replaced by Louisiana Tech. The Sun Belt responds by adding Louisiana-Monroe (previously independent), Georgia State, and South Alabama becomes a full member.

In 2013, C-USA loses Houston, Memphis, SMU, and UCF. They are replaced by FAU, FIU, Middle Tennessee, and North Texas of the Sun Belt. The Sun Belt responds with Georgia Southern and App State to get down to 12 in football.

In 2014, C-USA replaces Tulsa with WKU, and the Sun Belt replaces WKU with Texas State and non-football Texas-Arlington to go to 12/14. C-USA also loses East Carolina and Tulane; they are replaced by UTSA and Old Dominion.

C-USA 2014:
West - Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Rice, UTSA, USM, UAB
East - Marshall, FAU, FIU, MTSU, WKU, ODU

WAC 2014
Pacific - San Diego State, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV, Nevada, Hawaii*
Mountain - Boise State Wyoming, Colorado State, Air Force, New Mexico, UTEP

Sun Belt 2014:
West - Texas State, Louisiana-Monroe, Louisiana-Lafayette, New Mexico State, Idaho*, Utah State*
East - Arkansas State, South Alabama, Troy, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, App State
(Non-football: Texas-Arlington, Little Rock)

Idaho and Utah State eventually end their football affiliation with the Sun Belt and are replaced by Coastal Carolina and Charlotte in 2018.

The moves for 2023 probably play out very differently.

(01-07-2023 10:50 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-07-2023 10:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-07-2023 10:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 08:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-05-2023 07:49 PM)Porcine Wrote:  Too bad CUSA didn't take all four and maybe Tulsa, too. It would have saved a lot of trouble.

The C-USA merger was very much a basketball motivated move. Taking in the SWC-4 & Tulsa could have built them a nice football league in 1996 but football wasn’t at the forefront of the decision making.

No it wasn't. It was an all-sports motivated move in which creating a football league was of paramount importance. Otherwise, they would have stuck in their respective conferences, which was split off from the Metro in the first place.

Can you really call a 12-member conference where only 6 teams play FBS football a football motivated league? Why bring Charlotte, St Louis, DePaul, and Marquette in if this was a football league?

This was a have your cake and eat it to move. The mass exodus of Indy programs to conferences scared these schools into creating a football home for their teams but at its heart, C-USA 1.0 was a hoops conference that just happened to have enough football teams to award a trophy.

No, you're wrong. There were ongoing concerns by Metro schools with football programs to find a conference that sponsored the sport. This wasn't a new issue all of the sudden in the 90's. UAB was planning to move to 1-A and Houston was delayed a year in joining. South Florida had designs on starting a football program. They saw what the Big East did and thought they could replicate it.

Cut it with the arrogance and agree to disagree.

A “football conference” with 4 non-fb members and 2 recent upgrades is not a football first conference. C-USA was formed to give those schools football homes but basketball was still the priority. There were no delusions of grandeur. They knew they didn’t have a Miami to anchor the league and some historical stalwarts like Pitt, Cuse, and WVU to round things out. The scheduling noose was tightening so they panicked and started sponsoring football. The C-USA founding schools had just a few bowl appearances among them in the decades prior and weren’t exactly lighting the football world on fire. Louisville was the closest thing they had to anchor school and even their gridiron accomplishments weren’t that great.

Houston didn’t want anything to do with Rice, SMU, and TCU and it’s really why the SWC couldn’t rebuild. Memphis, Tulane, and Tulsa were interested and I think UNM sent reps to the meetings, but UH did not. They announced they were going to go Indy, but I think they must have been secretly talking to the Metro and Great Midwest.

It's too bad they didn't have the foresight or an idea if the future growth in Arizona back in the 50s or 60s.

Take AZ, ASU, TT, and New Mexico (as a bridge west) from the Border, basically ending that league earlier.

12th team could be Houston, or since they were private and played Arkansas anyway, Tulsa. I'm going Tulsa since Houston's programs were so new.

Arizona
Arizona State
New Mexico
Texas Tech
Texas
Texas A&M
Arkansas
TCU
SMU
Rice
Baylor
Tulsa

(01-12-2023 05:27 PM)Buckeye22 Wrote:  It's too bad they didn't have the foresight or an idea if the future growth in Arizona back in the 50s or 60s.

Take AZ, ASU, TT, and New Mexico (as a bridge west) from the Border, basically ending that league earlier.

12th team could be Houston, or since they were private and played Arkansas anyway, Tulsa. I'm going Tulsa since Houston's programs were so new.

Arizona
Arizona State
New Mexico
Texas Tech
Texas
Texas A&M
Arkansas
TCU
SMU
Rice
Baylor
Tulsa

It would have been hard for Arizona and Arizona State to turn down the PAC 8 in 1978, but if they had, I suspect the SWC becomes the surviving entity and either the Big 8 or the PAC 8 eventually dies. I think Arkansas still goes to the SEC in the early 1990s, but this might have been an opportunity to grab Colorado.

Missouri and Texas A&M eventually walk to the SEC, and Nebraska to the Big 10. The PAC 8 takes Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Utah, and Texas Tech. The SWC invites Kansas and Kansas State. Iowa State joins the Big East (now American).

The SEC eventually lands Oklahoma and Texas while the Big Ten lands USC and UCLA. The SWC adds Utah in hopes of landing Stanford and California should the Big Ten carve further into the PAC 12, which is now back down to 8 members. Washington and Oregon join the Big Ten, which cause Stanford and California to head to the SWC. Oklahoma State and Texas Tech join the American. Washington State and Oregon State join the WAC.

SWC 2036 (14):
Western - Arizona, Arizona State, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, California, Stanford
Southern - TCU, SMU, Rice, Baylor, Tulsa, Kansas, Kansas State

American 2036 (14):
West - Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Texas Tech, Tulane, Memphis, Houston
East - Cincinnati, West Virginia, UCF, USF, Temple, East Carolina, UConn

WAC 2036:
Pacific - Washington State, Oregon State, San Diego State, Hawaii, San Jose State, Fresno State
Mountain - UNLV, Nevada, Boise State, Air Force, Colorado State, Wyoming

We also have to think about schools that if they did not dropped football or forced to move down divisions like to FCS, D2 and D3? Where would they all fit in? Big West, WAC, MVC, Southland, SoCon all would still be FBS unless they get picked apart.

We could still see schools like Lamar, West Texas A&M, Wichita State, Little Rock, UTA, McNeese State, Chattanooga, East Tennessee State, Western Carolina, Tennessee State, Fullerton State, Idaho, Montana, Montana State, Northern Arizona, Illinois State, Western Illinois, Drake, Southern Illinois, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, The Citadel, VMI, Indiana State, Pacific, Santa Clara, Northridge State, Tampa, Long Beach State, UC-Santa Barbara, Cal. Poly, UC-Davis, UC-San Diego, UC-Riverside, Saint Mary's, Northern Colorado, etc be in a whole new different conferences than what we are seeing today, Even Georgetown would be somewhere.

West Texas A&M, Little Rock, Arkansas State, UCA, UTA and Northern Arizona all could be in the new SWC today. In the future, Central Oklahoma could be a nice pickup. I think getting UCO back up to mixed things up with Oklahoma State might bring excitement. They were former rivals when Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were not together.

(01-13-2023 01:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  We also have to think about schools that if they did not dropped football or forced to move down divisions like to FCS, D2 and D3? Where would they all fit in? Big West, WAC, MVC, Southland, SoCon all would still be FBS unless they get picked apart.

We could still see schools like Lamar, West Texas A&M, Wichita State, Little Rock, UTA, McNeese State, Chattanooga, East Tennessee State, Western Carolina, Tennessee State, Fullerton State, Idaho, Montana, Montana State, Northern Arizona, Illinois State, Western Illinois, Drake, Southern Illinois, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, The Citadel, VMI, Indiana State, Pacific, Santa Clara, Northridge State, Tampa, Long Beach State, UC-Santa Barbara, Cal. Poly, UC-Davis, UC-San Diego, UC-Riverside, Saint Mary's, Northern Colorado, etc be in a whole new different conferences than what we are seeing today, Even Georgetown would be somewhere.

West Texas A&M, Little Rock, Arkansas State, UCA, UTA and Northern Arizona all could be in the new SWC today. In the future, Central Oklahoma could be a nice pickup. I think getting UCO back up to mixed things up with Oklahoma State might bring excitement. They were former rivals when Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were not together.

Not every thread has to turn into your own personal soap box for obscure schools.

(01-07-2023 10:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Can you really call a 12-member conference where only 6 teams play FBS football a football motivated league? Why bring Charlotte, St Louis, DePaul, and Marquette in if this was a football league?

This was a have your cake and eat it to move. The mass exodus of Indy programs to conferences scared these schools into creating a football home for their teams but at its heart, C-USA 1.0 was a hoops conference that just happened to have enough football teams to award a trophy.

Football was absolutely the reason that C-USA was formed. Otherwise, the teams would have stayed in the Metro and G M West, both of which were strong basketball leagues. C-USA included most of the basketball schools to have a strong sports, while football developed.
Charlotte was in the Metro, the others were in the G Midwest. VCU (from Metro) was left out; and Va Tech (from Metro) was left out because they wouldn't bring their football team (both received financial settlements).
I assume that SMU et al could have joined C-USA, but the WAC was an established football league.

In my alternate SWC fantasy land, president LBJ (but while still US senator in the mid 50s for this scenario) uses his political power ala Bob bullock style to get the SWT State bobcats in the SWC. It just makes sense and sounds right. But in agreement to not sound like we own the conference we change name to Texas State much much sooner. That makes 10. OU and OSU have buyers remorse and come back as well, just for the sole fact they will now get yearly trips to the beautiful San Marcos. That’s 12.
Since this is the 50s geography still mattered so they start grabbing more SW teams killing off the Border conference. Tech, UNM, NMST, Zona, ASU. WAC doesn’t get formed this way, so BYU, Utah, and Colorado St join. UH still joins in the 70s to keep SEC out of Texas. And to get into SEC territory, SWC invites Louisiana Tech. Count is 20. Big 8(6) without Oklahomas grabs Wyoming, Utah St, Montana, MT state, NDSU, ND, SDSU, SD, missouri st, and Illinois St.

Divisions
Arkansas, Texas, Texas State, A&M, Rice, UH, Baylor, OU, OSU, and Louisiana Tech.

Tech, TCU, SMU, BYU, Utah, UNM, NMST, Zona, ASU, and Colo St.

(01-16-2023 05:22 PM)Bobcats2011 Wrote:  In my alternate SWC fantasy land, president LBJ (but while still US senator in the mid 50s for this scenario) uses his political power ala Bob bullock style to get the SWT State bobcats in the SWC. It just makes sense and sounds right. But in agreement to not sound like we own the conference we change name to Texas State much much sooner. That makes 10. OU and OSU have buyers remorse and come back as well, just for the sole fact they will now get yearly trips to the beautiful San Marcos. That’s 12.
Since this is the 50s geography still mattered so they start grabbing more SW teams killing off the Border conference. Tech, UNM, NMST, Zona, ASU. WAC doesn’t get formed this way, so BYU, Utah, and Colorado St join. UH still joins in the 70s to keep SEC out of Texas. And to get into SEC territory, SWC invites Louisiana Tech. Count is 20. Big 8(6) without Oklahomas grabs Wyoming, Utah St, Montana, MT state, NDSU, ND, SDSU, SD, missouri st, and Illinois St.

Divisions
Arkansas, Texas, Texas State, A&M, Rice, UH, Baylor, OU, OSU, and Louisiana Tech.

Tech, TCU, SMU, BYU, Utah, UNM, NMST, Zona, ASU, and Colo St.

Made a map of this.
I would also be willing to swap Utah for Utah St in this scenario and let Utah go to the Pac or Big8+ scenario.
Also considered trading Tulane or LaTech but figured in this dream scenario that the Nerds at Tulane and GaTech got together and made a Time Machine to go back and never leave the SEC cash machine.
And before the Big8(6) get upset about their grouping, we’re assuming these are all added in the 50-70s timeframe and thus are all more respected with national relevance.