Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

A lot was/is done through conferences. So maybe only those conferences and select independents. No MW. No SB. Cap payments to those conferences at pro-rata up to 12 teams.

Hmm, we’re the mid-majors even party to the original BCS? Did only the power conferences and Notre Dame receive distributions?

It was not the BCS which upped payments it was Congress.

Probably a better way legally would be to assign payouts based on getting teams into the playoff. (Similar to NCAA tournament credits)

You get one credit for each playoff game you are in. Bye teams automatically get one credit for the bye. That would be a total of 30 credits per year. Then take 1 more share and split it amongst all conferences. (Would have to handle the indis some way in this)

So take the total disbursements, divide by 31. All conferences get an equal share of that single credit, which is worth 1/31 of the total disbursement. Then each conference in the playoff would get a credit worth 1/31 of the payout for each game one of their teams is in.

This would dissuade teams/conferences from making the move up to FBS just to bank some automatic money. And it should also pass legal muster.

The PAC would probably squeal at the idea, but I'd think the SEC and BIG and probably B12 would be for it.

Do you like anti-trust lawsuits? Because this is how you lose anti-trust lawsuits. Organizations conspiring to keep others out is the textbook definition of an anti-trust violation.

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

In the early days of the BCS, the only teams to receive BCS payments was BCS conferences themselves, so what difference did it make if more teams joined FBS?

(12-19-2022 08:49 PM)clunk Wrote:  Do you like anti-trust lawsuits? Because this is how you lose anti-trust lawsuits. Organizations conspiring to keep others out is the textbook definition of an anti-trust violation.

I’m so tired of hearing people cry about anti-trust crap. If you want to be included with the big boys, have a program that’s valuable enough to be included with the big boys. Why does everyone think they can just hold their hand out and demand charity from the schools who bring in the dollars?

The vast majority of the programs that have came up since the dawn of the BCS wouldn’t be able to finance their programs without the money from the BCS/CFP. And what they can’t cover in BCS/CFP money, they put on their students in high fees.

I love college football, but not everyone needs to be at the top level:

P2/M3/ND

G5/FCS

DII

DIII

let’s stop pretending that Ohio St and Akron are at the same level—they are light years apart.

(12-19-2022 09:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 08:49 PM)clunk Wrote:  Do you like anti-trust lawsuits? Because this is how you lose anti-trust lawsuits. Organizations conspiring to keep others out is the textbook definition of an anti-trust violation.

I’m so tired of hearing people cry about anti-trust crap. If you want to be included with the big boys, have a program that’s valuable enough to be included with the big boys. Why does everyone think they can just hold their hand out and demand charity from the schools who bring in the dollars?

The vast majority of the programs that have came up since the dawn of the BCS wouldn’t be able to finance their programs without the money from the BCS/CFP. And what they can’t cover in BCS/CFP money, they put on their students in high fees.

I love college football, but not everyone needs to be at the top level:

P2/M3/ND

G5/FCS

DII

DIII

let’s stop pretending that Ohio St and Akron are at the same level—they are light years apart.

You can be tired of it all you want, simple fact remains these laws exist and the NCAA/CFP are subject to them. Courts don't really care if individual fans don't agree with them.

The way to solve this without antitrust is to set and enforce minimum standards. The biggest mistake was not enforcing the 15k attendance rule with actual attendance because too many legacy schools would not qualify.

As a result you now have schools with 5k football attendance joining CUSA.

(12-19-2022 09:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 08:49 PM)clunk Wrote:  Do you like anti-trust lawsuits? Because this is how you lose anti-trust lawsuits. Organizations conspiring to keep others out is the textbook definition of an anti-trust violation.

I’m so tired of hearing people cry about anti-trust crap. If you want to be included with the big boys, have a program that’s valuable enough to be included with the big boys. Why does everyone think they can just hold their hand out and demand charity from the schools who bring in the dollars?

The vast majority of the programs that have came up since the dawn of the BCS wouldn’t be able to finance their programs without the money from the BCS/CFP. And what they can’t cover in BCS/CFP money, they put on their students in high fees.

I love college football, but not everyone needs to be at the top level:

P2/M3/ND

G5/FCS

DII

DIII

let’s stop pretending that Ohio St and Akron are at the same level—they are light years apart.

But how do you build a program that's valuable enough to play with the big boys if the big boys don't want to play you?? That's some food for thought. And while Ohio State and Akron may not be at the same level, Troy and Ohio State could. Troy has beaten Missouri and LSU, I know that much for sure. Just don't know who else Troy has beaten from the P5 ranks.

(12-19-2022 09:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  let’s stop pretending that Ohio St and Akron are at the same level—they are light years apart.

Ohio State and most of the P5 are light years apart. By your logic the P5 should consist of about 16 teams.

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

I wonder though, just how great of an incentive are those BCS/CFP distributions for a G5? Does anyone know how much the typical MAC or CUSA school gets in CFP distributions each year?

IIRC, the NCAA data shows that the average G5-FBS school socks its "academic side" with about $23m in fees and transfers. In contrast, the average FCS school has about $13m in similar subsidies.

So that leads me to believe that whatever money the average G5 school gets in CFP distributions is out-weighed by the higher costs of being FBS. It's a money-losing move.

Which leads me to believe that those distributions aren't a big motivator, or at least haven't been in the BCS/CFP era, so far.

(12-19-2022 10:15 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  The way to solve this without antitrust is to set and enforce minimum standards. The biggest mistake was not enforcing the 15k attendance rule with actual attendance because too many legacy schools would not qualify.

As a result you now have schools with 5k football attendance joining CUSA.

Yeah, this is the difference. If you make it hard to attain, but still possible, it's not anti-trust. If you outright ban anyone new from ever joining under any circumstance, it becomes anti-trust.

Administrative solutions that support a cartel are illegal. Membership can change, that is a freedom and a necessity.

The solution should always have been restriction of distributions to participants, and elimination of subsidy distributions. The welfare system of payments is what has incentivized schools to move to FBS. Also conference HQ staffing has grown as the complexity of the NCAA distribution and rules regime necessitated a greater role; thus the pressure to continue on as a lesser conference to feed the office staff compels them to seek out and move-up candidates.

If you reform the payout system to mostly eliminate the welfare payment system to non-participants, then you remove the incentives for smaller programs to move up to FBS. The same is true with Basketball and the automatic bids to all conferences; reduce the automatics to the top 20 ranked (smoothed NET type rated) champions, and you will see a natural culling of D-I ranks by those who realize the increased cost comes without reward for the unsuccessful.

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

Go away. P5 schools are becoming second fiddle now to G5 schools lately. The big mistake in college sports is the greed by just a handful of schools right now. Look at where it is going? P2, while several schools that are better in football and basketball are being left behind. It is about the greed and nothing else.

(12-20-2022 05:16 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

Go away. P5 schools are becoming second fiddle now to G5 schools lately. The big mistake in college sports is the greed by just a handful of schools right now. Look at where it is going? P2, while several schools that are better in football and basketball are being left behind. It is about the greed and nothing else.

I hear you, but to me the biggest source of greed in college athletics is schools, mostly G5 but some P5 too, that sock their students with big fees or otherwise receive large transfers, in the amount of $20 million or even more, from the academic "side" to fund football programs that can't support themselves and where fan interest is negligible as evidenced by lots of empty seats and the need in some cases to buy back their own tickets to meet the FBS attendance requrement. That's hundreds of millions of dollars wasted IMO each year so that some directional East Arkansas Tech can claim it is in "the same league" as an LSU or USC. To me, that is just very irresponsible and it is done IMO for school vanity as much as anything else.

And yes, I know that USF is a prime offender there.

(12-21-2022 08:08 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-20-2022 05:16 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Back when the BCS was founded, there were only 112 DI-A (FBS) schools (all but Idaho remain FBS today). They should have put a rule in place that only those 112 schools would ever receive distributions from the BCS. make that rule, and I think it significantly limits the number of schools who move up banking on financing the move with BCS/CFP distributions.

Go away. P5 schools are becoming second fiddle now to G5 schools lately. The big mistake in college sports is the greed by just a handful of schools right now. Look at where it is going? P2, while several schools that are better in football and basketball are being left behind. It is about the greed and nothing else.

I hear you, but to me the biggest source of greed in college athletics is schools, mostly G5 but some P5 too, that sock their students with big fees or otherwise receive large transfers, in the amount of $20 million or even more, from the academic "side" to fund football programs that can't support themselves and where fan interest is negligible as evidenced by lots of empty seats and the need in some cases to buy back their own tickets to meet the FBS attendance requrement. That's hundreds of millions of dollars wasted IMO each year so that some directional East Arkansas Tech can claim it is in "the same league" as an LSU or USC. To me, that is just very irresponsible and it is done IMO for school vanity as much as anything else.

And yes, I know that USF is a prime offender there.

Miami, Florida is another so called offender as well. Look at how much how many empty seats they have when the stadium was less than half empty at times.