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bearcatmark Online
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Post: #61
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-16-2022 02:26 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 02:18 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 11:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-15-2022 10:30 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  Could have...why didn't they? Pay the man. Let him know the value you see in him. Let him know that UC is big time and will pay on level of other major programs (BIG12 money was just a couple years away). I said it when it happened that this would cost us and it did. Not saying it was the only issue, but the man got disrespected and I'm sure it stuck with him.

"Pay the man."

With what? We're still operating under the AAC media deal. The terms of the Big XII media deal weren't figured out back then. And we DID up his deal...with what we could, at the time, up to north of $5 Million per year. Had Fickell come back after this season and asked for a raise, he would have gotten it--you know he would. More likely than not, had he stayed more than 24 hours after the final game, he would have gotten a raise without asking for it. That's really what the "Wes Deal" indicates. Probably that's why he got out of town so quick: UC never had a chance to "up the deal."

It wasn't about the money. It really wasn't. It was about "The Big Ten." It was about what Luke Fickell needs to feed his ego. Maybe it was about the AD...I don't know. But I feel absolutely confident that it wasn't about the money. With what UC is looking at with the now known Big XII media deal, UC would have matched the Wisconsin money...maybe even exceeded it. But that would have made Fickell look money-grubbing...which, again, means that it wasn't about the money.

Borrow forward, I'm sure we could've found a way. I guess we will never know, but until proven otherwise, I would say he had one foot out the door when we ponied up a measly $5M when he was staring at $7-9M from other schools. I can tell you when I heard that news I felt he got disrespected. I'm sure he did as well. Just confirmed the "small time" Cincy thing. Kind of like not going after Deion.

You realize these contracts are negotiated right? It's not like most of us who have a meeting with their boss and he tells us he's give us a 4% raise for the year and that is that. Fickell's agent Jimmy Sexton (perhaps the best in the business) calls up John Cunningham and says Fick wants X dollars. If Fick wanted $7-8M after last year and UC only offered $5M he would not have been back this year.

If you look at the guys making more than Fick, almost all of them committed to the school with a large buyout. Fick got the deal he wanted. It was a nice pay increase and a large increase for his assistants, but it also kept the buyout low to give him the flexibility to leave when the right job came around. If Fickell wanted more money I have no doubt Cunningham would have given it to him, but it almost certainly would have depended on a buyout that heavily compensated UC should he leave.

That's the give and take of negotiations.
 
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2022 02:45 PM by bearcatmark.)
12-16-2022 02:45 PM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-16-2022 02:18 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 11:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-15-2022 10:30 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  Could have...why didn't they? Pay the man. Let him know the value you see in him. Let him know that UC is big time and will pay on level of other major programs (BIG12 money was just a couple years away). I said it when it happened that this would cost us and it did. Not saying it was the only issue, but the man got disrespected and I'm sure it stuck with him.

"Pay the man."

With what? We're still operating under the AAC media deal. The terms of the Big XII media deal weren't figured out back then. And we DID up his deal...with what we could, at the time, up to north of $5 Million per year. Had Fickell come back after this season and asked for a raise, he would have gotten it--you know he would. More likely than not, had he stayed more than 24 hours after the final game, he would have gotten a raise without asking for it. That's really what the "Wes Deal" indicates. Probably that's why he got out of town so quick: UC never had a chance to "up the deal."

It wasn't about the money. It really wasn't. It was about "The Big Ten." It was about what Luke Fickell needs to feed his ego. Maybe it was about the AD...I don't know. But I feel absolutely confident that it wasn't about the money. With what UC is looking at with the now known Big XII media deal, UC would have matched the Wisconsin money...maybe even exceeded it. But that would have made Fickell look money-grubbing...which, again, means that it wasn't about the money.

Borrow forward, I'm sure we could've found a way. I guess we will never know, but until proven otherwise, I would say he had one foot out the door when we ponied up a measly $5M when he was staring at $7-9M from other schools. I can tell you when I heard that news I felt he got disrespected. I'm sure he did as well. Just confirmed the "small time" Cincy thing. Kind of like not going after Deion.

And here is the great unknown and the disconnect between you and I: You "feel" like he was "disrespected." I'm talking about facts: we are compensated what we are and that we had no idea what the Big XII deal was going to be. Those things are objectively true. As a matter of fact, we had good reason to suspect that the Big XII money was going to be substantially less than what it turned out to be: the negative take on the B12 at the time was that the total money was going to be somewhere around $12 Million per team and that we might not get a full share of that money until three or five seasons (like WVU). Luke Fickell knew those numbers as well: if he "felt disrespected" there was very little anyone could do about that.

FWIW, if Fickell is making life-altering decisions based off of "feeling disrespected," then he's a fool and he's not going to like it much up in the Big Ten. The higher the profile of the program, the more people expect but also the more they feel entitled to judge your performance and comment on it. People have said that the "Booing" and chanting around the QB situation somehow pushed him out the door. Well, you have no idea what 65, 000 liquored up Badger fans in Camp Randall stadium is like...especially if there is snow around. They WILL let you know what they think of you, especially if you're losing to Iowa or Minnesota. My point is that I think that Luke Fickell is above that, and if he isn't he needs to buy some serious Xanax.
 
12-16-2022 02:54 PM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
 
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2022 02:59 PM by Cataclysmo.)
12-16-2022 02:59 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-16-2022 02:54 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 02:18 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 11:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-15-2022 10:30 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  Could have...why didn't they? Pay the man. Let him know the value you see in him. Let him know that UC is big time and will pay on level of other major programs (BIG12 money was just a couple years away). I said it when it happened that this would cost us and it did. Not saying it was the only issue, but the man got disrespected and I'm sure it stuck with him.

"Pay the man."

With what? We're still operating under the AAC media deal. The terms of the Big XII media deal weren't figured out back then. And we DID up his deal...with what we could, at the time, up to north of $5 Million per year. Had Fickell come back after this season and asked for a raise, he would have gotten it--you know he would. More likely than not, had he stayed more than 24 hours after the final game, he would have gotten a raise without asking for it. That's really what the "Wes Deal" indicates. Probably that's why he got out of town so quick: UC never had a chance to "up the deal."

It wasn't about the money. It really wasn't. It was about "The Big Ten." It was about what Luke Fickell needs to feed his ego. Maybe it was about the AD...I don't know. But I feel absolutely confident that it wasn't about the money. With what UC is looking at with the now known Big XII media deal, UC would have matched the Wisconsin money...maybe even exceeded it. But that would have made Fickell look money-grubbing...which, again, means that it wasn't about the money.

Borrow forward, I'm sure we could've found a way. I guess we will never know, but until proven otherwise, I would say he had one foot out the door when we ponied up a measly $5M when he was staring at $7-9M from other schools. I can tell you when I heard that news I felt he got disrespected. I'm sure he did as well. Just confirmed the "small time" Cincy thing. Kind of like not going after Deion.

And here is the great unknown and the disconnect between you and I: You "feel" like he was "disrespected." I'm talking about facts: we are compensated what we are and that we had no idea what the Big XII deal was going to be. Those things are objectively true. As a matter of fact, we had good reason to suspect that the Big XII money was going to be substantially less than what it turned out to be: the negative take on the B12 at the time was that the total money was going to be somewhere around $12 Million per team and that we might not get a full share of that money until three or five seasons (like WVU). Luke Fickell knew those numbers as well: if he "felt disrespected" there was very little anyone could do about that.

FWIW, if Fickell is making life-altering decisions based off of "feeling disrespected," then he's a fool and he's not going to like it much up in the Big Ten. The higher the profile of the program, the more people expect but also the more they feel entitled to judge your performance and comment on it. People have said that the "Booing" and chanting around the QB situation somehow pushed him out the door. Well, you have no idea what 65, 000 liquored up Badger fans in Camp Randall stadium is like...especially if there is snow around. They WILL let you know what they think of you, especially if you're losing to Iowa or Minnesota. My point is that I think that Luke Fickell is above that, and if he isn't he needs to buy some serious Xanax.

Yep. Badgers got booed at Camp Randall this year against several opponents, here is an article about the boos during the loss to Michigan at home. Remember, Paul Chryst got canned after finishing 9-4 last year. Gary Andersen, went 19-7 at Wisconsin in 2013 and 2014 and resigned (reportedly) due to difficulties with the athletic department and administration. In college sports, the big donors are in the ears of the presidents and ADs. The more money the donors pay, the more likely they are going to be unhappy if things don't go swimmingly.



https://madison.com/sports/college/footb...cc185.html
 
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2022 03:19 PM by CliftonAve.)
12-16-2022 03:18 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-16-2022 02:54 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 02:18 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  
(12-16-2022 11:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-15-2022 10:30 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  Could have...why didn't they? Pay the man. Let him know the value you see in him. Let him know that UC is big time and will pay on level of other major programs (BIG12 money was just a couple years away). I said it when it happened that this would cost us and it did. Not saying it was the only issue, but the man got disrespected and I'm sure it stuck with him.

"Pay the man."

With what? We're still operating under the AAC media deal. The terms of the Big XII media deal weren't figured out back then. And we DID up his deal...with what we could, at the time, up to north of $5 Million per year. Had Fickell come back after this season and asked for a raise, he would have gotten it--you know he would. More likely than not, had he stayed more than 24 hours after the final game, he would have gotten a raise without asking for it. That's really what the "Wes Deal" indicates. Probably that's why he got out of town so quick: UC never had a chance to "up the deal."

It wasn't about the money. It really wasn't. It was about "The Big Ten." It was about what Luke Fickell needs to feed his ego. Maybe it was about the AD...I don't know. But I feel absolutely confident that it wasn't about the money. With what UC is looking at with the now known Big XII media deal, UC would have matched the Wisconsin money...maybe even exceeded it. But that would have made Fickell look money-grubbing...which, again, means that it wasn't about the money.

Borrow forward, I'm sure we could've found a way. I guess we will never know, but until proven otherwise, I would say he had one foot out the door when we ponied up a measly $5M when he was staring at $7-9M from other schools. I can tell you when I heard that news I felt he got disrespected. I'm sure he did as well. Just confirmed the "small time" Cincy thing. Kind of like not going after Deion.

And here is the great unknown and the disconnect between you and I: You "feel" like he was "disrespected." I'm talking about facts: we are compensated what we are and that we had no idea what the Big XII deal was going to be. Those things are objectively true. As a matter of fact, we had good reason to suspect that the Big XII money was going to be substantially less than what it turned out to be: the negative take on the B12 at the time was that the total money was going to be somewhere around $12 Million per team and that we might not get a full share of that money until three or five seasons (like WVU). Luke Fickell knew those numbers as well: if he "felt disrespected" there was very little anyone could do about that.

FWIW, if Fickell is making life-altering decisions based off of "feeling disrespected," then he's a fool and he's not going to like it much up in the Big Ten. The higher the profile of the program, the more people expect but also the more they feel entitled to judge your performance and comment on it. People have said that the "Booing" and chanting around the QB situation somehow pushed him out the door. Well, you have no idea what 65, 000 liquored up Badger fans in Camp Randall stadium is like...especially if there is snow around. They WILL let you know what they think of you, especially if you're losing to Iowa or Minnesota. My point is that I think that Luke Fickell is above that, and if he isn't he needs to buy some serious Xanax.

Here are the facts...Cincy was coming off CFP appearance and had their chance to stamp this program as a contender and we got cheap with our head coach that could have jumped at 7-9M with another team. This is the exact moment we declared we're mid-level and will stay there. Very easy to see. Surprised by the feedback.
 
12-16-2022 11:31 PM
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Post: #66
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
he fooled us all with turning down michigan state. granted it was a dumpster; i dunno if it still is or it's just the coach, but he's easily a better coach than harblow and i think it's crazy to think he won't be in the thick of potential championships. big state's vulnerable with qb turnover and ain't wisky in the weaker divisions of the legends and losers? 'pose i'm in the minority but i generally root for our former coaches because i value more of what they did here than how they left. i did say generally
 
12-17-2022 11:27 AM
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RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
1997 you need to give up the cheap stuff. The AD and the BOT asked Fickell what he wanted. They would’ve found 7 mill to give him if he said that’s we he wanted. He wanted out. It has absolutely zero to do with money. One of UC’s biggest boosters has made it clear they gave Fickell everything he asked for and they would’ve matched any offer.
 
12-17-2022 03:19 PM
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Post: #68
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-17-2022 03:19 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  1997 you need to give up the cheap stuff. The AD and the BOT asked Fickell what he wanted. They would’ve found 7 mill to give him if he said that’s we he wanted. He wanted out. It has absolutely zero to do with money. One of UC’s biggest boosters has made it clear they gave Fickell everything he asked for and they would’ve matched any offer.

Every coach who has left UC for another school since Dantonio can say that.

Sometimes she just isn't that into you.
 
12-17-2022 03:59 PM
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Post: #69
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
Financial details on the contract extension...
 
12-20-2022 07:32 PM
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apoe Online
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RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
Going to need someone to explain to me why there is a buyout of $4.7M on March 30, 2027. UC raised the bar 4-5 clicks without any reason to do so. No one was coming to hire Wes. If he starts winning he is going to come for a bump on an already egregious contract.
 
12-20-2022 08:49 PM
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Post: #71
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 08:49 PM)apoe Wrote:  Going to need someone to explain to me why there is a buyout of $4.7M on March 30, 2027. UC raised the bar 4-5 clicks without any reason to do so. No one was coming to hire Wes. If he starts winning he is going to come for a bump on an already egregious contract.

According to Chad there were p5 inquiries last offseason.

His "already egregious contract" makes him the 9th highest paid coach in the big 12.
 
(This post was last modified: 12-20-2022 08:51 PM by bearcatmark.)
12-20-2022 08:50 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 08:50 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(12-20-2022 08:49 PM)apoe Wrote:  Going to need someone to explain to me why there is a buyout of $4.7M on March 30, 2027. UC raised the bar 4-5 clicks without any reason to do so. No one was coming to hire Wes. If he starts winning he is going to come for a bump on an already egregious contract.

According to Chad there were p5 inquiries last offseason.

His "already egregious contract" makes him the 9th highest paid coach in the big 12.

Yeah, that's my main takeaway. He got a bump to go from upper G5 to low P5. He's also "locked in" with high buyout until 2027. JC essentially handed him job security to build the program - what was needed from both sides.
 
12-20-2022 09:10 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
So basically this gives Wes 3 years in the Big 12 to make it happen, and if things progress quicker than expected, UC gets a hefty payout for the trouble of having to hire a new coach. I'm fine with it, as I think all of the reasonable fans knew that we were going to have to build again when we start in the Big 12, and Wes is showing signs of having both recruiting chops and strong evaluation ability.
 
(This post was last modified: 12-20-2022 10:08 PM by BearcatMan.)
12-20-2022 09:57 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
Wooo that’s some serious commitment from both sides.
 
12-20-2022 10:08 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 10:08 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  Wooo that’s some serious commitment from both sides.

Kind of signifies to me that both parties realize these next few years are going to be rough.
 
12-20-2022 11:44 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 08:50 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(12-20-2022 08:49 PM)apoe Wrote:  Going to need someone to explain to me why there is a buyout of $4.7M on March 30, 2027. UC raised the bar 4-5 clicks without any reason to do so. No one was coming to hire Wes. If he starts winning he is going to come for a bump on an already egregious contract.

According to Chad there were p5 inquiries last offseason.

His "already egregious contract" makes him the 9th highest paid coach in the big 12.

Enough of this rational thinking, we need to be angry!!! This is an egregious contract!!!
 
12-21-2022 08:52 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 09:57 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  So basically this gives Wes 3 years in the Big 12 to make it happen, and if things progress quicker than expected, UC gets a hefty payout for the trouble of having to hire a new coach. I'm fine with it, as I think all of the reasonable fans knew that we were going to have to build again when we start in the Big 12, and Wes is showing signs of having both recruiting chops and strong evaluation ability.

Bolded, or, UC renegotiates at that time and raises his pay and extends the deal. Either way, it's a solid plan. And one hopes that if Wes has the team winning and ranked again while competing in the Big 12 he may not see a need to take his act anywhere else, excluding his alma mater UNC perhaps.
 
12-21-2022 08:56 AM
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Post: #78
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-20-2022 11:44 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(12-20-2022 10:08 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  Wooo that’s some serious commitment from both sides.

Kind of signifies to me that both parties realize these next few years are going to be rough.

Coach needs to make it happen.

This aint football where you need a few classes to build up the depth needed to compete. Huggins turned a NIT team into a final four team in one year. It can happen.

Do it, Wes.
 
12-21-2022 09:38 AM
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Post: #79
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
(12-21-2022 09:38 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  
(12-20-2022 11:44 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(12-20-2022 10:08 PM)natibeast2.0 Wrote:  Wooo that’s some serious commitment from both sides.

Kind of signifies to me that both parties realize these next few years are going to be rough.

Coach needs to make it happen.

This aint football where you need a few classes to build up the depth needed to compete. Huggins turned a NIT team into a final four team in one year. It can happen.

Do it, Wes.

Agreed. Huggins was masterful at finding and securing junior college talent in that era that probably isn't out there today. For those guys, it was like being called up from triple A baseball to the majors.

It took Kelvin Sampson a couple of years to rebuild Houston into today's powerhouse and he was a veteran coach. Memphis has recruited top talent for several years now but only has an NIT crown to show for it. It's going to take talent and coaching to thrive in the Big 12--a tall order for any coach.
 
12-21-2022 10:34 AM
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Post: #80
RE: Wes Miller Contract Extension
I don't get the fear of CWM leaving UC after a little success in the B12. Even if he were to be ranked in the Top 10 the first two years in the league, where can he go to get better basketball considering the B12 is easily the best league in the land? The only school I worry about is if the TarHeels come calling and I wouldn't blame him for that.

Looks like JC did a solid strategic job with the extension/contract. Now let's hope (and support) the team thru getting on court results to match the level of strategy. This feels to me like UC back in the old Big East days... great hoops with even stronger football. So much opportunity for the Bearcats on the horizon.
 
12-21-2022 10:59 AM
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