(12-02-2022 07:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: I always kinda get a chuckle out of people who forget what they are debating. This whole conversation started because you mis-defined MAGA and then you asked the same question 3 times---claiming that nobody answered it (although several did). I pretty much knew exactly how to get you to eventually answer your own question. To remind you---here is the question that triggered this dicussion---
You are wrong, so I will, one more time, as clearly as possible, ask: Can only woke people define the term woke? It's a simple yes or no question. If no, then why can only MAGA people define MAGA?
https://csnbbs.com/thread-960620-page-3.html
And thankyou---I knew if I flipped the tables and was patient, you'd lay out why defining the beliefs of others doesnt work yourself---and sure enough---you basically did.
This is exactly the same tactic the far left uses where you either agree in their woke ideology or you are an alt right white nationalists. I reject both your extreme and theirs. I do so loudly and proudly and your use of shaming tactics, ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies, and lies won't change that.
We dont know what other people really think or what their exact belief system is. Most people are perfectly capable of stating what they believe---so whenever a political opponent deems it necessary to define another's belief system for them---the depiction is usually inaccurate, caricatured, and generally done to set up a straw man argument for the speaker to knock out of the park. Apologies if you were insulted---but this was basically what I was hoping for--I wanted you to answer your own question since you deemed attempts by others to answer it inadequate.
You move the goalposts like it's your job, man. What actually kicked all of this off is my claim, that I stand by, that MAGA and wokism are opposite sides of the same coin. That hurt your precious little feelings, you've been making up **** ever since, and here we are.
Your originally claimed that MAGA is the entire Republican Party:
(11-30-2022 06:45 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: No---they arent "the same". MAGA is literally the entire Republican Party.
That statement is, of course, nowhere near reality. In reality, you'll find that a vast majority of Republicans refuse the label.
Then you moved to the logical fallacy called the Appeal to Identity, where only members of the ingroup can define the ingroup:
(11-30-2022 07:57 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: I just told you what MAGA believes--and your reaction is to vomit some ridiculous argument that MAGA isnt what MAGA people think it is
(12-01-2022 01:21 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: You literally told me that MAGA doesnt mean what the people who make up MAGA think its means.
That is where I pressed you to apply the same standard to the woke left and I have asked you multiple times to explicitly state that you are not a hypocrite and believe that only the woke gets to define woke. You have still not done so.
Your next move to play the Jeff Bridges card, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man":
(12-01-2022 06:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: You're more than welcome to have an OPINION on what MAGA means. You're even welcome to attempt to argue that it is something it is not.
I've since provided the data proving that nearly 60% of people who describe themselves as MAGA believe violence is an acceptable political tool, twice as much as any other political group. That clearly supports my position, but it's painfully obvious that my facts stand no chance against your opinions.
Finally we get to the quote at the top of this post, your attempt to rewrite history as if none of us have the ability to read. This whole thing started not because I defined MAGA incorrectly, but because how I defined it hurt your feelings. I asked you the same question multiple times, not everybody. You are the only one who made the fallacious claim that only MAGA members can define the term MAGA. Nobody else made such a ridiculous statement, so naturally I haven't asked anybody else to defend it. Your claim was that I must accept your definition of MAGA because you identify as MAGA. That's absurd. I've demonstrated it's absurdity by asking you, repeatedly, if, following that same "logic" only people who identify as woke can define the term woke. You have still yet to answer that specific question. You dance around it because you know you define woke differently that people who identify as woke and you know your definition is more correct than theirs, but to admit that would be to cut yourself off at the knees and you value winning the argument more than conducting yourself with integrity.
You then changed your tune stating that free speech means I can believe and argue what I want, but I can't expect everybody to agree with me. And there's some truth to that because I can't expect everybody to agree with me, but I can expect reasonable people to agree with me because words and terms have meanings. Again, this is an argument that would not accept if it was made by somebody on the left. A perfect example is how they words like racism, abuse, and violence in ways that don't match the accepted meanings of the words. If a leftists were to claim that my words are violence and I disagreed because violence requires a physical act of harm would, no reasonable person would disagree with me. Just like when I say MAGA is defined by the belief that violence is an acceptable political tool, which 60% of self described MAGA agree with, twice as much as self described strong Republicans, reasonable people agree that my statement is true.
You end by claiming that my position that the far left and far right are the same and use the same dishonest tactics is somehow a self own, which is amusing because that's what I originally stated on page 1. That's what upset you in the first place. Did you forget what we were debating? How ironic.
And finally we come to your silly diatribe that we can't know what people believe. Except we can know. We can ask them and they can answer and we can believe them. That's why I did. I believed MAGA when they stormed the capitol and I believed MAGA when 60% of them described political violence as being an acceptable tool in one situation or another. But you seem to believe when MAGA tells us and shows us who they are that they aren't being truthful, that somehow it's just a caricature.
I would love, just love, for you to provide examples of straw man arguments that I've made at any point in this thread. Why don't you list all my fallacies and I'll list all yours and we'll see really knocked it out of the park and who kept circling back to one dishonest tactic after another? I'm not insulted by anything you've said about me, I'll admit to being a little offended that you think the way you've conducted yourself is an example of independent thought, but that's not personal. You can declare victory if it makes you feel better about yourself, but all you've really done is provide another example of why hope is wasted in America. The woke left offers catastrophe that burns the American flag, the MAGA right offer catastrophe that's wrapped in it. Bring on the meteor.
