(11-23-2022 11:31 AM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  

(11-21-2022 04:43 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(11-21-2022 01:50 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-21-2022 07:29 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(11-21-2022 07:19 AM)PlayBall! Wrote:  New Jersey and New York need that message too.

NY has no singular public flagship

Several Private schools are the academic flagship and one is the sports flagship.

Technically, that's correct, but officially, SUNY-Buffalo & SUNY-Stony Brook are the state's flagship, but no one except the governor recognizes them as such apparently.

Syracuse is the unofficial sports flagship, and I will definitely give them that. Too bad 'Cuse couldn't merge into the SUNY system.

The concept of "flagship" seems to be as misunderstood as the concept of "blue blood" on this forum.

See I thought it was when the state of New York literally designated Bufflalo and Stony Brook as flagships. What is your concept?

Typically refers to the highest status large university in a state. Of course, California is so big, they effectively have a flagship for Northern California and Southern California.

Flagships are often but not always the biggest football brands. In California, like Indiana, and pre WWII Massachusetts, their biggest football brand is a private University.

One nuance is that the analogy is to naval fleets, and you can be the designated flagship of a University system and not be the effective flagship of all Universities in the state, like UMass and Buffalo/Stone Brook.

Few things are more cringe than sports writers talking about 'flagship' universities. In the actual world of academia the term is not such a fetish and, when used, it refers to budget.

You say it when a state sets a clear funding priority for one campus, especially in fields of graduate research. Other sources of revenue available to schools haven't essentially challenged that pecking order.

For this reason you tend to see designated 'flagships' in states with smaller populations: Arkansas, say, or Nebraska or Wisconsin. In the larger-population states, whatever the history, supply and demand and regional growth and alumni contributions have all long since done their wonderful work of lifting boats and scrambling neat categories.

And smaller-population states don't always exalt one campus, either. Iowa, for example, supports two well-funded research universities.

So is the consensus that we will start seeing “Berkeley” mixed in with “Cal” on the athletic logos and uniforms?

(11-24-2022 08:37 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  Few things are more cringe than sports writers talking about 'flagship' universities. In the actual world of academia the term is not such a fetish and, when used, it refers to budget.

You say it when a state sets a clear funding priority for one campus, especially in fields of graduate research. Other sources of revenue available to schools haven't essentially challenged that pecking order.

For this reason you tend to see designated 'flagships' in states with smaller populations: Arkansas, say, or Nebraska or Wisconsin. In the larger-population states, whatever the history, supply and demand and regional growth and alumni contributions have all long since done their wonderful work of lifting boats and scrambling neat categories.

And smaller-population states don't always exalt one campus, either. Iowa, for example, supports two well-funded research universities.

Good points. My point, I guess, was that everybody seems to have their own meaning for flagship, and if people don't agree on what a word means, it makes the word pretty useless if you are trying to reach a consensus.

The word is, at its core, a naval term. And it doesn't even refer to a particular ship. The flagship is the one ship in a given fleet that the Admiral is on at the time. It is the command post. The navy, at any given time, has many different fleets for different missions. Each can have its own flagship. So, too, with universities and the states they reside in. Small states probably don't need or have a lot of different flagships, while most of our largest states probably have several "fleets" that serve different missions.

University systems are structured in whatever manner a governing political faction within the state believes suits its interests. That may mean one "flagship" or two, or many. And none of it has anything to do with sports.

Cal sounds more Athletic while Berkeley is associated with counter culture with protests and sit in’s from the 60’s

(11-23-2022 11:52 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Typically refers to the highest status large university in a state.

That's an interesting criteria. For Georgia, most would assume it's UGA. However, Georgia Tech took the lead in financial impact to the state several years ago, has a bigger yearly budget and our endowment is twice as large. Academics; we know who leads there. Even our business/mba school is ranked higher.

This is interesting, that I didn't realize till now looking at some numbers. GT has a bigger total enrollment at ~45k and UGA is at ~40k. Though GT does have more postgrad students than undergrad. I wonder if we're the only P5 school with that makeup in student population.

UGA probably gets the nod for flagship just because of brand and it was founded earlier. However, depending on how you look at things it's not as black and white imo.

Cal

Wasting money & time on a study.

Berkeley is the municipality.

Georgia isn’t called Athens. Michigan State isn’t called East Lansing.

(11-24-2022 09:47 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  Cal

Wasting money & time on a study.

Berkeley is the municipality.

Georgia isn’t called Athens. Michigan State isn’t called East Lansing.

Let's go back to what brought this on in the first place. From the OP:

Quote:Research by the university has found that more than half of people surveyed nationally did not know those names refer to the same institution.

"Cal" and "Berkeley" is a far different situation. No one ever refers to Georgia as Athens. What other schools are doing is irrelevant to what Berkeley aims to do.

It depends on the focus.

If it’s athletics, plain Cal may be a good choice.

Berkeley likely resonates more in n the academic side.

(11-24-2022 01:01 PM)keflex Wrote:  

(11-23-2022 11:52 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Typically refers to the highest status large university in a state.

That's an interesting criteria. For Georgia, most would assume it's UGA. However, Georgia Tech took the lead in financial impact to the state several years ago, has a bigger yearly budget and our endowment is twice as large. Academics; we know who leads there. Even our business/mba school is ranked higher.

This is interesting, that I didn't realize till now looking at some numbers. GT has a bigger total enrollment at ~45k and UGA is at ~40k. Though GT does have more postgrad students than undergrad. I wonder if we're the only P5 school with that makeup in student population.

UGA probably gets the nod for flagship just because of brand and it was founded earlier. However, depending on how you look at things it's not as black and white imo.

UGA gets the nod for flagship, IMO, because Tech goes more for out of state students than UGA does, IMO. Nothing wrong with what either does, but it just makes Tech look like more of a private school than a public school though.

(11-19-2022 02:56 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/new...-identity/

Quote:A University of California, Berkeley task force is exploring how to improve the institution's brand identity after decades of students, staff, alumni, and fans using both of the terms "Berkeley" and "Cal" for the school.

Research by the university has found that more than half of people surveyed nationally did not know those names refer to the same institution.

...

In a letter explaining the mission of the task force, Chancellor Carol T. Christ said it will review data on the university's various names and best practices for branding. After engaging all appropriate communities that would be impacted and considering the implications of changes to the school's identity, the task force will develop a naming framework for the campus to move forward from the current confusion.

...

The document mentions several names used to identify the campus including "University of California, Berkeley," "UC Berkeley," "Cal," "California" and "Berkeley." Deptula said the data before the task force shows that "Cal" and "Berkeley" are seen as different institutions nationally and around California, even in parts of the Bay Area.

With all the U of Cal regents stuff going on, this seemed kind of relevant, since it talks about the school's appearance from a national perspective.

Interesting topic you presented, Skyhawk.

I was looking for a reply/comments from Wedge, one of the moderators. He’s a California fan (maybe a graduate?) and often delivered quality information. I haven’t seen his posts in a few months, though I am semi-regular at times in perusing threads. There are a couple of other Cal fans, but I don’t recall the screen names.

I attended a seminar held at California around 1990ish for several days. Of course that was decades ago. I didn’t get the impression students and faculty were calling the campus itself, Berkeley. Cal stuck with me. The greater community of Berkeley means more residents, businesses, parks, etc. that are external to the University. Sure, I saw some old “hippie”/counter culture types, street artists, etc. To me, it didn’t appear overwhelming, and not extremely different from some other state University towns. This was in the spring, so observation was not made about the atmosphere surrounding football or other athletic activities.

I like Cal as the nickname. I assume Cal-Davis, Cal-Irvine, and other University System campuses are prone to use locations for purposes of identity and distinction. That is not unique to the State of California. People who follow college athletics substantively and/or well-familiar with higher education academia would know Cal and Berkeley are referencing the same campus and locale.

They can study this, but reference options are quite narrow. How the University chooses logos, delivers public relations information and material, and promotes clarity in how they are casually, and perhaps semi-formally, named, is largely an internal dynamic. Perhaps there is a perceptual issue in a segment of the public, but I don’t believe it is a matter to overstate.

(11-24-2022 08:37 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  Few things are more cringe than sports writers talking about 'flagship' universities. In the actual world of academia the term is not such a fetish and, when used, it refers to budget.

You say it when a state sets a clear funding priority for one campus, especially in fields of graduate research. Other sources of revenue available to schools haven't essentially challenged that pecking order.

For this reason you tend to see designated 'flagships' in states with smaller populations: Arkansas, say, or Nebraska or Wisconsin. In the larger-population states, whatever the history, supply and demand and regional growth and alumni contributions have all long since done their wonderful work of lifting boats and scrambling neat categories.

And smaller-population states don't always exalt one campus, either. Iowa, for example, supports two well-funded research universities.

You and few others get "wrapped around the axle" over the definition.

On a sports board when we use flagship it has a broader meaning

(11-19-2022 07:21 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't spend a lot of time inside Illinois these days but if I remember correctly inside the state people associated with the university more commonly would say "U of I" or "Urbana". I tell all of you I went to "Illinois", it wouldn't make sense for me to tell my cousins in the Chicago suburbs when I was visiting them I'm going back to "Illinois" when I'm in the state. Berkeley's the same way in California.

This.

Berkeley (the local name) leaking out into the national zeitgeist was a function of California having an oversized presence in national media and the specifically Cal having an oversized presence for a very brief period of time in the late 60s.

I’m sure when they looked at the study data more closely they saw that awareness of “Berkeley” as a brand for people outside the state of California was mostly limited to the boomer generation. I think this issue of brand divergence solves itself in a few decades.

Also, I don’t go back to Illinois very often either. But I would say Champaign whereas you said Urbana. I think I’ve noticed this transition, but I have no idea when it happened. Back in my day Champaign was the city people knew about. And that once you got to campus you realized that some buildings were actually in Urbana. But Urbana was basically just where you went for a townie bar experience.

I suspect that when UIC began to rise in stature and people had to start saying UIUC or Urbana-Champaign to disambiguate the two, that having the U first in the name made Urbana a more common colloquialism. But back in the day nobody ever even said the word Urbana. Seeing people call the school Urbana is like seeing the St Paul Vikings to me.

Leave it to California to spend money on something like this. We all know the conclusion is going to be (Cal).

In California, when referring to the university - not the athletics team - you most commonly hear Cal-Berkeley or just Berkeley. UC-Berkeley and Cal are not as common.

But, I can't remember a time that I ever heard the 'Berkeley' when someone was referring to the football or basketball team. It's most commonly 'Cal' or the 'Cal Bears.'