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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: USN&WR Rankings
One of the things that hurts all Ohio public schools, other than Ohio State, in these rankings is the size of Ohio State's freshman classes. They were over 7K in recent years and topped 8K in the post-covid class (perhaps an error on their part in estimating the yield). They are simply sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room.

I really think it's time for the state to cap their freshman classes at somewhere around 6000 to 6500 students a year. That would free up an awful lot of well qualified students that would be welcome anywhere else in the system, and I think UC would get the largest amount of them.
 
09-12-2022 06:32 PM
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RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-12-2022 06:13 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:30 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:19 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 04:35 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  The other factor in the metrics used by USNWR is with all this student growth, UC has not kept up with faculty resources such as class size and faculty to student ratios.

Faculty resources isn't the problem. Getting faculty to teach more than 8-10 hours a week is. College professor is the most overpaid and underworked profession in existence.

I don't disagree with that sentiment as a faculty member who teaches 18 hours (with two additional labs and the 36 required office hours on top of that) and still manages to lap a lot of my colleagues in research expenditures (I did work in industry however, so I actually understand how to...work...), but Clifton's response is correct. Student/Faculty ratio and # of Faculty in general are two metrics USNWR uses, both of which are two of the many reasons why USNWR shouldn't be used as a viable ranking of actual academic stature.
Thanks!!

Remind us What ranking or metrics should we read that is more reflective of learning and academic stature.

ARWU bases things quite a bit more on academic productivity and outcomes than input metrics like USNWR does. The Times World University Rankings does much better ranking institutions on community (local, regional, and global) impact metrics, but does lack in educational outcomes.

Really, there is no good single source, but many rankings do things better than USNWR's antiquated system of 4 year grad rates and donor based measurements.
 
09-12-2022 07:48 PM
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ZCat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-12-2022 07:48 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 06:13 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:30 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:19 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 04:35 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  The other factor in the metrics used by USNWR is with all this student growth, UC has not kept up with faculty resources such as class size and faculty to student ratios.

Faculty resources isn't the problem. Getting faculty to teach more than 8-10 hours a week is. College professor is the most overpaid and underworked profession in existence.

I don't disagree with that sentiment as a faculty member who teaches 18 hours (with two additional labs and the 36 required office hours on top of that) and still manages to lap a lot of my colleagues in research expenditures (I did work in industry however, so I actually understand how to...work...), but Clifton's response is correct. Student/Faculty ratio and # of Faculty in general are two metrics USNWR uses, both of which are two of the many reasons why USNWR shouldn't be used as a viable ranking of actual academic stature.
Thanks!!

Remind us What ranking or metrics should we read that is more reflective of learning and academic stature.

ARWU bases things quite a bit more on academic productivity and outcomes than input metrics like USNWR does. The Times World University Rankings does much better ranking institutions on community (local, regional, and global) impact metrics, but does lack in educational outcomes.

Really, there is no good single source, but many rankings do things better than USNWR's antiquated system of 4 year grad rates and donor based measurements.

Thanks BCM!
I’ll look them up. But it does sound like US news and world report did finally get rid of the four year graduate metric per someone in this chat.
 
09-12-2022 09:30 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #24
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-12-2022 09:30 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:48 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 06:13 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:30 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-12-2022 07:19 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  Faculty resources isn't the problem. Getting faculty to teach more than 8-10 hours a week is. College professor is the most overpaid and underworked profession in existence.

I don't disagree with that sentiment as a faculty member who teaches 18 hours (with two additional labs and the 36 required office hours on top of that) and still manages to lap a lot of my colleagues in research expenditures (I did work in industry however, so I actually understand how to...work...), but Clifton's response is correct. Student/Faculty ratio and # of Faculty in general are two metrics USNWR uses, both of which are two of the many reasons why USNWR shouldn't be used as a viable ranking of actual academic stature.
Thanks!!

Remind us What ranking or metrics should we read that is more reflective of learning and academic stature.

ARWU bases things quite a bit more on academic productivity and outcomes than input metrics like USNWR does. The Times World University Rankings does much better ranking institutions on community (local, regional, and global) impact metrics, but does lack in educational outcomes.

Really, there is no good single source, but many rankings do things better than USNWR's antiquated system of 4 year grad rates and donor based measurements.

Thanks BCM!
I’ll look them up. But it does sound like US news and world report did finally get rid of the four year graduate metric per someone in this chat.

They did for 2021 rankings, but they use a 5 year past ranking average as a "balance point" in their formula, so it will continue to impact schools for another two years.
 
09-12-2022 09:49 PM
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ZCat Offline
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Post: #25
RE: USN&WR Rankings
So if I have the correct list, ARWU has us in the groupings of 301-400.

Very interesting to scroll through the list.

https://www.shanghairanking.com/rankings/arwu/2022

Sorry- not sure how to make a link active.
 
09-12-2022 09:54 PM
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RE: USN&WR Rankings
I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.
 
09-13-2022 07:31 AM
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BearcatMan Offline
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RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
 
09-13-2022 07:35 AM
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #28
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...

Exactly
 
09-13-2022 08:09 AM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: USN&WR Rankings
Can I just say that my decision to attend UC as an undergraduate had nothing to do with these institutional rankings. Maybe for some families/students they do factor in but I would wager for the majority of them it doesn't move the needle. Do we want to be higher on these lists? Sure. Do we want our football and hoops programs to be high on the national radar? Yep.
 
09-13-2022 08:49 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: USN&WR Rankings
I think USNWR is the only one that matters in terms of attracting high school students. It's probably never the most important thing, but it does come into play. It's really the only one that makes national and local news, and if a potential student, their parents or guidance counselors, do pay attention to a ranking, it will be USNWR.

I don't think it's the be all and end all in decisions, but it does play a role in students and parents making some rough cuts. If school A and B are ranked 70th and 80th, I really don't think it matters. If the gap is being ranked 35th and 135th, then I think the perception of those schools will be different in people's minds, and it's going be a burden on school 135 to change that perception.
 
09-13-2022 08:57 AM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #31
RE: USN&WR Rankings
Fun thing I noticed when looking through school data. It's only like 1% of the total rankings, but student to faculty ratio is something USWNews considers. I noticed that Stanford and Michigan both have way lower student to faculty ratios (reported as between 4 and 6) reported on USWNews than the number of professors they report. As it turns out, schools are allowed to report post docs as faculty, which means that a school like Stanford that has 1500 post docs can report ~3500 faculty to lower that number, whereas schools like UC simply don't have the funding to hire that many post docs.
 
09-13-2022 09:33 AM
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ZCat Offline
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Post: #32
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
Which begs the Q- why doesn’t OH?
Heck FL does not even have state income tax. They are able to do it. I know that many of these things are long-standing traditions and practices on how the state does business. They made budgets a certain way and for certain things over 200 years ago.
 
09-13-2022 11:07 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 09:33 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  Fun thing I noticed when looking through school data. It's only like 1% of the total rankings, but student to faculty ratio is something USWNews considers. I noticed that Stanford and Michigan both have way lower student to faculty ratios (reported as between 4 and 6) reported on USWNews than the number of professors they report. As it turns out, schools are allowed to report post docs as faculty, which means that a school like Stanford that has 1500 post docs can report ~3500 faculty to lower that number, whereas schools like UC simply don't have the funding to hire that many post docs.

While the USN&WR rankings always get a lot of publicity and parental attention, aside from the elite private and public institutions which are widely recognized, it gets difficult to measure quality downstream. Some used to say the report was a better measure of prestige than quality and I'm inclined to agree.

After examining these ratings more closely some time ago, I realized there really was no "audit" function in place. Maybe that's changed but schools provide the information in response to a survey. At that time, and I'm guessing even today, there is no independent verification of the information submitted. And I believe only a couple of schools have been caught and publicly outed for falsely reporting to put a better spin on their profiles.
 
09-13-2022 11:09 AM
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #34
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 11:07 AM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
Which begs the Q- why doesn’t OH?
Heck FL does not even have state income tax. They are able to do it. I know that many of these things are long-standing traditions and practices on how the state does business. They made budgets a certain way and for certain things over 200 years ago.

Don't conflate "no state income tax" with a low tax burden and low tax revenue. States without income tax are shifting their tax burden from the wealthy to the poor / middle class. The state's are still getting their tax review, but just from higher property/sales taxes.

It's basically a matter of Ohio not prioritizing education funding.
 
09-13-2022 11:30 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 11:30 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 11:07 AM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
Which begs the Q- why doesn’t OH?
Heck FL does not even have state income tax. They are able to do it. I know that many of these things are long-standing traditions and practices on how the state does business. They made budgets a certain way and for certain things over 200 years ago.

Don't conflate "no state income tax" with a low tax burden and low tax revenue. States without income tax are shifting their tax burden from the wealthy to the poor / middle class. The state's are still getting their tax review, but just from higher property/sales taxes.

It's basically a matter of Ohio not prioritizing education funding.

One aspect of it is that Ohio tries to spread the peanut butter too thinly and spread it too evenly. Universities should not be funded equally. They should be funded based on their mission. And before anyone screams, "that favors osu." I'll answer yes it absolutely does. It would/should also favor UC over every school in the system other than osu. Ohio also has too many 4 year campuses to fund and a completely unnecessarily redundant branch campus system that operates as essentially in-house community colleges for the 4 year campuses. It has too many law schools and too many doctoral programs. All that dilutes what funding is available.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2022 11:38 AM by Bearcat 1985.)
09-13-2022 11:37 AM
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ZCat Offline
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Post: #36
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-12-2022 10:22 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  Miami's been out of the top 100 for a few years now and haven't been close to OSU for probably 20. Yet they don't lose a bit of arrogance and self-regard do they?

[Image: 6t48s3.jpg]

You will be pleased that they are unranked on ARWU.
You will not be pleased they mention “public ivy”

https://www.shanghairanking.com/institut...ity-oxford
 
09-13-2022 11:50 AM
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Bruce Monnin Offline
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RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 11:37 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  One aspect of it is that Ohio tries to spread the peanut butter too thinly and spread it too evenly. Universities should not be funded equally. They should be funded based on their mission. And before anyone screams, "that favors osu." I'll answer yes it absolutely does. It would/should also favor UC over every school in the system other than osu. Ohio also has too many 4 year campuses to fund and a completely unnecessarily redundant branch campus system that operates as essentially in-house community colleges for the 4 year campuses. It has too many law schools and too many doctoral programs. All that dilutes what funding is available.

It has been a few years, but last time I looked OSU was already receiving over twice as much money per Ohio undergraduate student as any other university in Ohio.

Personally, I wouldn't give a dime to the Universities. I would take the money instead and offer it to students to use at the state institution of their choice. Then the schools would just have one tuition, not one for in state and one for out of state.

Last time I looked at the numbers, it would be enough that in-state students would attend for free if schools kept their tuition where it was. Which tells me the money from the state is supporting other things than a tuition break for Ohio students.
 
09-13-2022 12:29 PM
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Post: #38
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 11:30 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 11:07 AM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
Which begs the Q- why doesn’t OH?
Heck FL does not even have state income tax. They are able to do it. I know that many of these things are long-standing traditions and practices on how the state does business. They made budgets a certain way and for certain things over 200 years ago.

Don't conflate "no state income tax" with a low tax burden and low tax revenue. States without income tax are shifting their tax burden from the wealthy to the poor / middle class. The state's are still getting their tax review, but just from higher property/sales taxes.

It's basically a matter of Ohio not prioritizing education funding.

A sales tax only shifts the tax burden to the poor if all items are taxed equally.

However, no state implements sales tax that way. Food is not taxed in any state. Electricity, gasoline, and prescription drugs are not subject to sales tax in Ohio. The result is that the sales tax we actually implement is more progressive than the income tax in most states.
 
09-13-2022 03:38 PM
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #39
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 03:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 11:30 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 11:07 AM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 07:31 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I am amazed at the rise of USF (#97) and UCF (#137) in this ranking. It was not that long ago we were way ahead of both school- especially UCF- and now we are looking up at both of them.

It pays to have a state that heavily subsidizes education...
Which begs the Q- why doesn’t OH?
Heck FL does not even have state income tax. They are able to do it. I know that many of these things are long-standing traditions and practices on how the state does business. They made budgets a certain way and for certain things over 200 years ago.

Don't conflate "no state income tax" with a low tax burden and low tax revenue. States without income tax are shifting their tax burden from the wealthy to the poor / middle class. The state's are still getting their tax review, but just from higher property/sales taxes.

It's basically a matter of Ohio not prioritizing education funding.

A sales tax only shifts the tax burden to the poor if all items are taxed equally.

However, no state implements sales tax that way. Food is not taxed in any state. Electricity, gasoline, and prescription drugs are not subject to sales tax in Ohio. The result is that the sales tax we actually implement is more progressive than the income tax in most states.

Even with some of those exceptions, it's really not. In Texas for instance, the bottom 20% pay 13% of their total income in taxes. The top 1% pays 3.1% of their total income in taxes (these are based on 2018 numbers). In California, where there use income taxes, the bottom 20% pays about 10.5% of their income in taxes where the top 1% pays 12.4%.

The upper 1% disproportionately benefits from shifting from income based taxes, to Sales/Property taxes.

https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/a...364793.php
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2022 03:56 PM by bearcatmark.)
09-13-2022 03:54 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #40
RE: USN&WR Rankings
(09-13-2022 12:29 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  
(09-13-2022 11:37 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  One aspect of it is that Ohio tries to spread the peanut butter too thinly and spread it too evenly. Universities should not be funded equally. They should be funded based on their mission. And before anyone screams, "that favors osu." I'll answer yes it absolutely does. It would/should also favor UC over every school in the system other than osu. Ohio also has too many 4 year campuses to fund and a completely unnecessarily redundant branch campus system that operates as essentially in-house community colleges for the 4 year campuses. It has too many law schools and too many doctoral programs. All that dilutes what funding is available.

It has been a few years, but last time I looked OSU was already receiving over twice as much money per Ohio undergraduate student as any other university in Ohio.

Personally, I wouldn't give a dime to the Universities. I would take the money instead and offer it to students to use at the state institution of their choice. Then the schools would just have one tuition, not one for in state and one for out of state.

Last time I looked at the numbers, it would be enough that in-state students would attend for free if schools kept their tuition where it was. Which tells me the money from the state is supporting other things than a tuition break for Ohio students.

OSU's comparative SSI stranglehold has been reduced slightly...I believe it is closer to $1.60 to a dollar of most every other institution. The way this Intel money gets distributed to the Colleges may be hilarious to watch though.
 
09-13-2022 04:00 PM
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