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Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(11-13-2022 11:11 AM)bronconick Wrote:  When all the Republican Party has been pushing for the last six+ years has been fear and disinformation, it makes me think anything they tell me about a ballot proposal is also fear and disinformation. Most of Michigan agreed with me. Fix your party and come up with an actual platform.

To me, it seems like their platform is to go back to the 19th century.
11-13-2022 11:50 AM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(11-13-2022 11:11 AM)bronconick Wrote:  When all the Republican Party has been pushing for the last six+ years has been fear and disinformation, it makes me think anything they tell me about a ballot proposal is also fear and disinformation. Most of Michigan agreed with me. Fix your party and come up with an actual platform.

"Dems in disarray"
11-13-2022 01:10 PM
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RunningGame Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(11-13-2022 10:12 AM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  
(11-13-2022 02:05 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  It wasn't just some people saying it wouldn't affect any other law, it was their $50 million dollar campaign's top message: https://twitter.com/mireprofreedom/statu...BJ5FumNWTw

Like I said, naive or disingenuous. Anyone that has ever paid attention to the way new legislation works is that there are almost always conflicts.

The truth is we don't know how many/what/if other laws will be in conflict. Some of the laws that will need to be addressed only exist BECAUSE of the 1931 law and some others only exist BECAUSE of Roe.

Like I also stated previously, I do believe that this will have an impact on certain other laws, but I do not believe that it will reflect the extremes of the opposition.

At the end of the day, the majority of laws that are in conflict or are superseded by the passage of this amendment, even if by association, are in conflict because the people of Michigan decided that they should be. Again, I think it would be naive to think that there won't be collateral implications, but they will get sorted out in due time.

I think the reality is that if you were to try and put the positions of those that supported Prop 3 v. those that opposed it on a balanced scale and judge them on intentional disinformation, intent of law to protect v. control, extending rights v. restricting them, etc. It would be very difficult to OBJECTIVELY show that the end result isn't what the majority of the voting population of Michigan wanted.

Curious what percentage of Michiganders do you think support ending parental consent, partial-birth abortion, tax-funded abortions? I guarantee you it’s not 55%. There’s a very good reason the Yes campaign felt compelled to memory hole their earlier comments and spend $40 million pretending it would affect ZERO other laws.
11-14-2022 08:02 PM
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ktotten Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(11-14-2022 08:02 PM)RunningGame Wrote:  
(11-13-2022 10:12 AM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  
(11-13-2022 02:05 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  It wasn't just some people saying it wouldn't affect any other law, it was their $50 million dollar campaign's top message: https://twitter.com/mireprofreedom/statu...BJ5FumNWTw

Like I said, naive or disingenuous. Anyone that has ever paid attention to the way new legislation works is that there are almost always conflicts.

The truth is we don't know how many/what/if other laws will be in conflict. Some of the laws that will need to be addressed only exist BECAUSE of the 1931 law and some others only exist BECAUSE of Roe.

Like I also stated previously, I do believe that this will have an impact on certain other laws, but I do not believe that it will reflect the extremes of the opposition.

At the end of the day, the majority of laws that are in conflict or are superseded by the passage of this amendment, even if by association, are in conflict because the people of Michigan decided that they should be. Again, I think it would be naive to think that there won't be collateral implications, but they will get sorted out in due time.

I think the reality is that if you were to try and put the positions of those that supported Prop 3 v. those that opposed it on a balanced scale and judge them on intentional disinformation, intent of law to protect v. control, extending rights v. restricting them, etc. It would be very difficult to OBJECTIVELY show that the end result isn't what the majority of the voting population of Michigan wanted.

Curious what percentage of Michiganders do you think support ending parental consent, partial-birth abortion, tax-funded abortions? I guarantee you it’s not 55%. There’s a very good reason the Yes campaign felt compelled to memory hole their earlier comments and spend $40 million pretending it would affect ZERO other laws.

Sounds like you and your org have a messaging problem. FIX IT.
11-14-2022 08:18 PM
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RunningGame Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(09-09-2022 03:50 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  You are inventing things to get mad at and the courts will not see it your way

Offer is still open btw I will bet literally any amount of money on this

They said it wouldn't affect parental consent at all (after saying it would, at the beginning). The pro-Prop 3 campaign was pretty adamant: "IT DOES NOT AFFECT EXISTING PARENTAL CONSENT LAWS FOR ABORTION OR ANY OTHER LAWS"

Now that it has passed, "To avoid lawsuits, the legislature may take preemptive measures to address or edit any conflicting laws currently on the books, like Michigan’s 24-hour waiting period and a parental consent requirement for minors seeking an abortion."

https://www.mlive.com/politics/2023/01/l...ments.html

Gee, they are singing a very different tune now.

You still want to gamble on this?
01-03-2023 10:05 AM
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wmubroncopilot Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
Happy to considering we were talking about completely different things, months ago you insisted this would legalize rape and incest and now you're twisted up about something else that the legislature is preemptively addressing.

Also worth bringing up that after all your complaining about my "preconcieved notions about your views" it turns out I was more accurate about them than I could've even imagined.
01-03-2023 10:20 AM
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RunningGame Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(01-03-2023 10:20 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Happy to considering we were talking about completely different things, months ago you insisted this would legalize rape and incest and now you're twisted up about something else that the legislature is preemptively addressing.

Also worth bringing up that after all your complaining about my "preconcieved notions about your views" it turns out I was more accurate about them than I could've even imagined.

Huh? It was just added to the Constitution and there haven't been opportunities for lawsuits or the new Legislature to address it yet.

Yes, the language does allow statutory rape and incest (with "consent"). After all, how could Mlive said it affects parental consent if it doesn't expressly include children under the category of "individual"? And because it says an individual's right to reproductive freedom—including sex and all matters related to pregnancy—can not be infringed in any way, once someone has the guts to challenge statutory rape laws and a judge has the guts to follow the language, it's gone—because statutory rape laws infringe on a 15-year-old's right to reproduce.

It will be sadly interesting to see if the Legislature has the stones (or ovaries) to gut parental consent before a lawsuit happens, or if they care about their pre-election promises and just leave it for a court to do the dirty work for them.
01-03-2023 10:34 AM
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RunningGame Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Reproductive freedom officially on the ballot in MI
(01-03-2023 10:34 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  
(01-03-2023 10:20 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Happy to considering we were talking about completely different things, months ago you insisted this would legalize rape and incest and now you're twisted up about something else that the legislature is preemptively addressing.

Also worth bringing up that after all your complaining about my "preconcieved notions about your views" it turns out I was more accurate about them than I could've even imagined.

Huh? It was just added to the Constitution and there haven't been opportunities for lawsuits or the new Legislature to address it yet.

Yes, the language does allow statutory rape and incest (with "consent"). After all, how could Mlive said it affects parental consent if it doesn't expressly include children under the category of "individual"? And because it says an individual's right to reproductive freedom—including sex and all matters related to pregnancy—can not be infringed in any way, once someone has the guts to challenge statutory rape laws and a judge has the guts to follow the language, it's gone—because statutory rape laws infringe on a 15-year-old's right to reproduce.

It will be sadly interesting to see if the Legislature has the stones (or ovaries) to gut parental consent before a lawsuit happens, or if they care about their pre-election promises and just leave it for a court to do the dirty work for them.

The only legitimate legal question with the language of Proposal 3 is if children who aren't old enough to be able to reproduce are covered by the term "individual." However, the Proposal 3 campaign said publicly the amendment covers individuals "from birth." So...
01-03-2023 10:48 AM
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