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A fair deal?
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #1
A fair deal?
Although the column pertains to the Titans, the concepts may apply to the Griz as well.

Jim Gingrich - former chief operating officer for AllianceBernstein in Nashville - warns the Titans are getting a sweet heart deal at the expense of Nashville citizens and Titan fans.

His main points are new stadiums vastly increase owner asset value, taxpayers are footing a greater proportion of the cost than normal, and average fans maybe priced out (eg, PSL’s).

https://www.tennessean.com/story/opinion...163265002/
07-30-2022 03:35 PM
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CRM114 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: A fair deal?
Would the lifetime value of a new stadium to the Nashville economy be worth the proposed $1.5B of public contribution? That seems hard to fathom. If a $2.2B stadium is required to keep the team in Nashville but the ownership can't finance any more than 30% of the capital (compared to 80% average for other owners), maybe the Nashville area just doesn't have a large or affluent enough fan base for the modern NFL franchise.

Nashville-Davidson County citizens should also ask why they are footing the bill for a stadium that serves sports fans across a much wider geographical area. I suppose that's where state funding would come into play. As a Memphis citizen I have zero interest in having state taxes help to fund a stadium that will do nothing for my city, and in fact just adds more unneeded glory and attractiveness to a rapidly-growing metro 200 miles away. But if I were a Nashville resident I would at least be asking for some of the surrounding counties to help pay for this one.

NFL stadiums in general seem to be very hard to justify as a public investment since they are used so infrequently. Fortunately for Memphis, basketball arenas don't cost nearly as much as football stadiums and get far more use. Much of the FedExForum's financing is being repaid from arena-related revenues (leases, ticket fees, sales taxes in and around the arena) and was not as much of a direct drain on city finances as it could have been. To the fullest extent possible, the same arrangement needs to prevail whenever another major investment in FEF (or a replacement) comes about. But in the end, I think Memphis will do whatever is necessary to keep the Grizzlies here.
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2022 07:21 PM by CRM114.)
07-30-2022 07:19 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: A fair deal?
I am remiss in omitting Gringrich’s firm (AllianceBernstein) received an incentive from the State of Tenn (and perhaps local government) to relocate to Nashville.

Once a firm gets sufficiently big, they can demand breaks denied existing small businesses. The person cutting my hair and my lawn, for example, saving to attend a Griz or Titan game pays twice - once to the taxman and again to a billionaire owner.
07-31-2022 07:04 AM
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hk25 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: A fair deal?
Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.
07-31-2022 10:36 AM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.
07-31-2022 01:13 PM
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hk25 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 01:13 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.

Have you ever made a positive post about our lone major league franchise team?

Sorry, I go to games all the time for $15 or less per person, even economically aware folks like me get to enjoy the grizz.

Anything the city has done to help make that possible has been one of its greatest uses of my tax $, IMHO.

But carry on if posting negative comments floats your boat.
07-31-2022 04:44 PM
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k2tigers Offline
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Post: #7
RE: A fair deal?
John G thinks he does, but he loves going after the Grizz

He thinks he's being clandestine too

He's got a hard on for Pera
07-31-2022 04:56 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 04:56 PM)k2tigers Wrote:  John G thinks he does, but he loves going after the Grizz

He thinks he's being clandestine too

He's got a hard on for Pera

SMH, again with the personal attacks. Can you offer nothing but gutter snipes?

I merely posted a faithful summary of a column by a CEO of a major company demonstrating the potential lopsided deal for the Titans and postulated the possibility of a similar situation for the Griz.

You cannot wrap your head around the concept it is possible to want the Griz to win, but still post commentary about the wisdom and cost/benefit of deals luring the Griz. You have a one track mind with a narrow gauge when it pertains to the Griz.
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2022 06:19 PM by Tiger1983.)
07-31-2022 05:53 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 04:44 PM)hk25 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 01:13 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.

Have you ever made a positive post about our lone major league franchise team?

Sorry, I go to games all the time for $15 or less per person, even economically aware folks like me get to enjoy the grizz.

Anything the city has done to help make that possible has been one of its greatest uses of my tax $, IMHO.

But carry on if posting negative comments floats your boat.

I often post positive comments about the Griz. Check it out.

You say you go to games “all the time” for $15 a pop. Do you pay only for yourself? How much do you estimate spending on Griz games a year (including fuel, parking, and concessions)?

I assume you are a Tiger fan. If forced to choose between using tax dollars to subsidize Pera or helping the Tigers obtain B12 or other major conference membership, which would you choose?
07-31-2022 06:04 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: A fair deal?
Quote:Grizz fans show disappointment for playoff ticket prices online
By Jasmine McCraven, Daily Memphian
Updated: April 21, 2022 3:20 PM CT | Published: April 21, 2022 3:19 PM CT. https://dailymemphian.com/article/28319/...kets-go-up
07-31-2022 06:12 PM
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hk25 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: A fair deal?
Yes I am a tiger fan 1st, although my answer here may not be what you would expect. I would prefer my city government to pursue opportunities for Memphis to be perceived as a major league city (NBA/ NFL/ MLB/etc). So I believe the money should go to pro sports who the entire Memphis community can support regardless of what college they went to or support.

My humble opinion is city government has no business in subsidizing any of the local colleges athletics, not CBU, Rhodes, LO, or the even the UM. That is each university’s responsibility. Now if any of them are making investments that benefit the city, I expect the city to support them the same way they would a local company with pilot programs & maybe infrastructure support. But it’s not the city’s responsibility to bring the Liberty bowl up to P5 standards.

That being said, in no way do I believe any money going to Grizz would make it to UM if they were not here and any assumption the city is choosing to support the Grizz at the expense of UM is a far reach at best and likely untrue…..even if on paper one might say they could give the UM or Liberty bowl the money instead since it’s in the budget.

Your posts make it feel you believe the city should treat UM athletics like a pro franchise & while for me as a sports fan it might be nice if they did, I believe it only hurts both by you constantly posting some of the things you have as many of your posts you try to place the Grizz vs Tigers.

My comment on costs was per ticket, you can buy tickets in the upper deck to most mid week games for $10-$15 each on the resell market……but don’t expect the Lakers or a playoff game at that rate…..those will cost you real major league $
07-31-2022 07:07 PM
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CRM114 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 01:13 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.

You are misrepresenting the way that FedExForum was financed.

The bonds used to finance FedExForum are not repaid through the general revenues of the city and county, e.g. property taxes and general sales taxes. The arena was financed with revenue bonds which are repaid through six different streams, all either generated by the arena itself, state sales tax rebate from the surrounding entertainment district, and fees assessed on hotels and rental cars.

Recently the city and county did agree to make annual payments to the team, but that was to buy out of a clause in the original 2002 Grizzlies lease where they could have potentially paid them much more if there were attendance shortfalls. This isn't exactly subsiding the Grizzlies either, since the lease requires the Grizzlies to manage the arena to an operating profit or else cover the losses themselves. At any rate, the highest annual payments under the new arrangement will cost about $6.77 per county resident. Giving that money back wouldn't do much to move the needle on poverty.
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2022 11:09 PM by CRM114.)
07-31-2022 10:59 PM
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UofMark Offline
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Post: #13
RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 10:59 PM)CRM114 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 01:13 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.

You are misrepresenting the way that FedExForum was financed.

The bonds used to finance FedExForum are not repaid through the general revenues of the city and county, e.g. property taxes and general sales taxes. The arena was financed with revenue bonds which are repaid through six different streams, all either generated by the arena itself, state sales tax rebate from the surrounding entertainment district, and fees assessed on hotels and rental cars.

Recently the city and county did agree to make annual payments to the team, but that was to buy out of a clause in the original 2002 Grizzlies lease where they could have potentially paid them much more if there were attendance shortfalls. This isn't exactly subsiding the Grizzlies either, since the lease requires the Grizzlies to manage the arena to an operating profit or else cover the losses themselves. At any rate, the highest annual payments under the new arrangement will cost about $6.77 per county resident. Giving that money back wouldn't do much to move the needle on poverty.

Thank you CRM for the facts, something the same people love to ignore. Diego, you may lock this thread now and while we're at it, please do us all a favor.
08-01-2022 11:09 AM
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Dynamos Offline
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Post: #14
RE: A fair deal?
Downtown Memphis would be a wasteland without the Grizzlies. And the average fan can watch on tv
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2022 12:17 PM by Dynamos.)
08-01-2022 12:16 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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RE: A fair deal?
(07-31-2022 10:59 PM)CRM114 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 01:13 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(07-31-2022 10:36 AM)hk25 Wrote:  Can’t speak to Titans deal, but people attending Grizz games are not paying twice.

Some of the most affordable tickets in the NBA if not all of the major leagues sports.

Yes, they are paying twice when local tax dollars are used to subsidize the Griz operations of the third richest NBA owner. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider...atform=amp

Taking the spouse and two kids to meaningful games (eg playoffs) costs on average about $592. https://seatgeek.com/memphis-grizzlies-t...ff-tickets Gas, parking, and concessions adds another $40 or more. It is not a venture for the poorly resourced. Twenty-five percent of Memphians live in poverty (the national average is 13%). https://www.memphis.edu/socialwork/resea...sheet.pdf. For most people, going to games is a special event if they can afford to go at all.

You are misrepresenting the way that FedExForum was financed.

The bonds used to finance FedExForum are not repaid through the general revenues of the city and county, e.g. property taxes and general sales taxes. The arena was financed with revenue bonds which are repaid through six different streams, all either generated by the arena itself, state sales tax rebate from the surrounding entertainment district, and fees assessed on hotels and rental cars.

Recently the city and county did agree to make annual payments to the team, but that was to buy out of a clause in the original 2002 Grizzlies lease where they could have potentially paid them much more if there were attendance shortfalls. This isn't exactly subsiding the Grizzlies either, since the lease requires the Grizzlies to manage the arena to an operating profit or else cover the losses themselves. At any rate, the highest annual payments under the new arrangement will cost about $6.77 per county resident. Giving that money back wouldn't do much to move the needle on poverty.

Politicians and “rent seekers” often use revenue bonds to convince people that no pubic funds are used for private ventures, but they never mention opportunity cost. Many studies have been published showing there is little or no economic impact of a pro team (https://dailymemphian.com/subscriber/sec...concerns).
It is an "inevitability" the city will have to cough up hundreds of millions of dollars to retain the Griz.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...512554001/

Furthermore, small businesses do not have access to revenue bonds. It is reserved for the wealthy and well connected - that is the ones needing the money the least.

The Griz also get special protection from competition (https://www.localmemphis.com/amp/article...d6c6b9b6bb) and take up debt capacity that could be used for something else (eg, a new or major overhauled LB and city backing for a One Beale hotel).

The $45 million subsidy over eight years is enough to pay $400 worth of food to 1,171 families every month for eight years.

In addition to the subsidy, additional taxpayer money in the "tens of millions" may be required if the NBA changes the revenue-sharing and media rights method for small markets in a way causing a "Material Recurring Revenue Impact Event". Failure to "cure" the impact tiggers a Grizzlies' option to terminate the FedEx lease and exit Memphis. https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/n...623046001/
08-01-2022 02:09 PM
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