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USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #61
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:11 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  Smart move. The Pac deserves what it has gotten.

They turned down Texas alone in 1990. And had they been willing to take Texas Tech with UT in 1993-94 they could have had them then with A&M going to the SEC.

I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!
08-01-2022 11:03 AM
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XLance Online
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Post: #62
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(07-29-2022 09:53 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  “The group met on a Zoom call to go over a 20-slide deck. But the Pac-12 was only about 15 minutes into its hourlong presentation before USC president Carol Folt spoke up.

“Folte told the group that she did not understand why the Pac-12 would expand and expressed surprise they were even talking about it”

Et tu Folte?

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/202...-expansion

Folt was run out of Chapel Hill after some bonehead decisions.07-coffee3
08-01-2022 11:07 AM
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #63
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
The only expansion for PAC would be to have moved East and tried to add a couple B12 schools - which they should have done... the entire story of realignment is if you think you should do something, you should act

If I were the PAC, I would have grabbed TCU and Kansas, and what the hell, maybe Oklahoma State and Houston

KS, TCU, Houston, OKST
CO, AU, ASU, Utah
USC, UCLA, Cal, Stan
Wash, Or, WSU, OSU

And... UCLA and USC leave, you still have 14, with a midwest group you can easily add on to - Texas Tech, even Kansas State
08-01-2022 11:16 AM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #64
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(07-30-2022 05:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(07-30-2022 05:54 PM)WAChsenburggemeinde Wrote:  
(07-30-2022 04:23 PM)RUScarlets Wrote:  Should have been:

West: PAC6
East: UT OU CO Utah AU ASU

Scott needed to drop that dead weight, but I don't see how the PAC10 would have just dropped OSU/WSU from the ranks.

If it was PAC16, OSU/WSU would have stayed but I guess they didn't like the other options in Texas. Would it have been TTech? OkieSt? TCU? I think KU would have certainly been included.

Maybe KU and TTech with UT OU would have made the PAC16 viable. Houston also a possibility over TTech.

PAC 12 got played by USC and UCLA. Even just taking a couple schools e.g. OK State and TCU, they would be better off today. You can’t just look at the pay cut when dividing the pie more ways. You have to think strategically. One more defection and the PAC probably dies.

Big 12 got played by OUT as well. They could have expanded like in 2016 by grabbing UCF, Cincinnati, Houston and maybe USF or Colorado State, but they didn't.

On the one hand, I agree in the sense that I always believed that the Big 12 should have added at least Cincinnati and BYU back in the mid-2010s from a long-term perspective.

The problem, of course, is that individuals (university presidents and ADs in this case) often are incentivized much more heavily for short-term objectives as opposed to long-term issues.

In both cases of the Big 12 and Pac-12, the TV revenue maximizing calculation was to NOT expand.

At the same time, neither the Big 12 nor Pac-12 could just ignore the wishes of its most valuable schools, particular where Texas was already openly a flight risk and wasn't shy about it.

By the same token, even in the best case scenario where expansion would make more money, neither the Big 12 nor Pac-12 were going to add enough value with expansion to dissuade either Texas or USC from leaving (particularly when Texas and USC didn't want expansion in the first place).

So, at least in the case of the Big 12, that league would have essentially ended up with the same set of schools as today whether they expanded circa 2016 or not.

The impact on the Pac-12 is much different because that league could have taken anyone that it wanted to from the Big 12 last year, but that's looking like it's not the case at all this year.
08-01-2022 11:17 AM
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Post: #65
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  They turned down Texas alone in 1990. And had they been willing to take Texas Tech with UT in 1993-94 they could have had them then with A&M going to the SEC.

I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

Or when the ACC delivered the death blow to the Big East by SU and Pitt "deceiving and betraying" the Big East.
08-01-2022 11:25 AM
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Post: #66
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
The worst example was Missouri. Their president was head of the Big 12 council which was working hard to keep the league together after Texas A&M left while negotiating with the SEC for a Missouri exit. Then while the SEC was willing, because of the late date, to defer Missouri's admission, Missouri refused. They screwed the Big 12, Big East and ACC by rushing out the door. FSU had to schedule 2 FCS schools that year because of Missouri's changes. The Big East ended up having only 7 teams in their conference. All because Missouri secretly negotiated an early exit and refused to cooperate on ways to make it less painful for the 20-30 or so schools that got screwed because of it. The Big 12 was willing to make it financially beneficial to stay with a reduced exit fee, but they wouldn't participate.
08-01-2022 11:29 AM
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Hokie Mark Online
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Post: #67
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  They turned down Texas alone in 1990. And had they been willing to take Texas Tech with UT in 1993-94 they could have had them then with A&M going to the SEC.

I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

You may be confusing VT with some other school. Yes, they did apply whatever political pressure they could to be into the ACC, but they didn't block Big East expansion before leaving like USC (allegedly) did to the Pac-12. Abandoning your partners and sabotaging them before leaving are two very different things...
08-04-2022 03:08 PM
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Jericho Offline
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Post: #68
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
The idea that USC "blocked" expansion unilaterally is ridiculous. Duke and UNC have opposed ACC expansion, but it still got done because unanimous consent was not needed. USC may have been against expansion, but so were a whole bunch of other schools. Otherwise it would have happened.
08-04-2022 10:58 PM
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Just Joe Offline
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Post: #69
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-04-2022 10:58 PM)Jericho Wrote:  The idea that USC "blocked" expansion unilaterally is ridiculous. Duke and UNC have opposed ACC expansion, but it still got done because unanimous consent was not needed. USC may have been against expansion, but so were a whole bunch of other schools. Otherwise it would have happened.

I agree with this. Hindsight is 20/20 - it's easy to say that if they'd hoover'd up Big 12 schools a year ago the conference would be stable but the reality of the situation at the time is that no collection of Big 12 schools was worth it.

And even if it were USC who strong armed everyone and killed expansion, the narrative right now if the Pac 12 had expanded anyway and the LA schools left a month ago would be that Kliavkoff is an idiot who chased USC/UCLA from the conference by adding Kansas, Texas Tech, etc. That the LA schools were happy and content and that expansion over USC's objections forced their hand.
08-05-2022 10:10 AM
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #70
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-04-2022 03:08 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

You may be confusing VT with some other school. Yes, they did apply whatever political pressure they could to be into the ACC, but they didn't block Big East expansion before leaving like USC (allegedly) did to the Pac-12. Abandoning your partners and sabotaging them before leaving are two very different things...

If you want to take the "holier than thou" approach then that's on you. Last I checked, USC was only one of twelve members. So the other 11 didn't have a voice?

You think there was no betrayal when VT left the Big East? Ha, sure there was, it just wasn't as public as this USC issue. I know you want to believe that VT and pretty much all ACC schools are above this nonsense, but they're not! There is "betrayal" in all of this, it's part of buisness and these programs want a seat at the table.

Besides, the USC president was 100% right, I mean, who the hell could the PAC have added that would first, bring more revenue and secondly, who would have wanted to take a pay cut to join them?
08-05-2022 10:42 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #71
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-04-2022 10:58 PM)Jericho Wrote:  The idea that USC "blocked" expansion unilaterally is ridiculous. Duke and UNC have opposed ACC expansion, but it still got done because unanimous consent was not needed. USC may have been against expansion, but so were a whole bunch of other schools. Otherwise it would have happened.

I know. I mean, USC comes to mind as the conference's "troublemaker," but, it sounds like over the years, that specific population was far more than one.

Honestly, that USC "divorced itself" from Stanford here...the optics say a lot. Especially when coupled with UCLA divorcing from Berkeley. One can't help but look the two CA schools left behind and wonder what those two have been doing all these years.

But, again, it's a collective effort. The PAC has gotten it so wrong over the years. It's tiresome laying it at the feet of a commissioner. That guy is merely a sum of the parts. And those are some pretty crummy parts.
08-05-2022 12:54 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #72
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-04-2022 10:58 PM)Jericho Wrote:  The idea that USC "blocked" expansion unilaterally is ridiculous. Duke and UNC have opposed ACC expansion, but it still got done because unanimous consent was not needed. USC may have been against expansion, but so were a whole bunch of other schools. Otherwise it would have happened.

Right. Didn't the Athletic article say it was an 8-4 vote against expansion? That sounds like the Corner-4 voted for expansion but the PAC-8 voted against.
08-05-2022 01:16 PM
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Post: #73
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 01:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-04-2022 10:58 PM)Jericho Wrote:  The idea that USC "blocked" expansion unilaterally is ridiculous. Duke and UNC have opposed ACC expansion, but it still got done because unanimous consent was not needed. USC may have been against expansion, but so were a whole bunch of other schools. Otherwise it would have happened.

Right. Didn't the Athletic article say it was an 8-4 vote against expansion? That sounds like the Corner-4 voted for expansion but the PAC-8 voted against.

I believe Colorado and Utah have been against expansion as much as the California schools. My hunch is that the Arizona schools favored expansion along with Washington State and Oregon State.
08-05-2022 01:19 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #74
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  They turned down Texas alone in 1990. And had they been willing to take Texas Tech with UT in 1993-94 they could have had them then with A&M going to the SEC.

I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

It’s actually massively different because Virginia Tech had its sights set on the ACC since its inception in 1953. It was the only original SoCon member not included in the ACC, despite Carolina’s best efforts to include them.

The Big East literally picked the best markets and started a conference for TV purposes. Nobody should ever feel sorry for their lame attempt at a football conference, especially considering VaTech wasn’t allowed to join for Olympic sports for like a decade.

The Big Ten stabbed their longtime partner in back. There’s no comparison in college sports history.
08-05-2022 01:23 PM
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #75
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 01:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:26 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  I am talking about this last expansion. The Pac have no one but themselves to blame.

Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

It’s actually massively different because Virginia Tech had its sights set on the ACC since its inception in 1953. It was the only original SoCon member not included in the ACC, despite Carolina’s best efforts to include them.

The Big East literally picked the best markets and started a conference for TV purposes. Nobody should ever feel sorry for their lame attempt at a football conference, especially considering VaTech wasn’t allowed to join for Olympic sports for like a decade.

The Big Ten stabbed their longtime partner in back. There’s no comparison in college sports history.

Thanks for proving my point!
08-05-2022 01:25 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #76
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 01:25 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-05-2022 01:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-29-2022 10:28 PM)SouthEastAlaska Wrote:  Domer you are spot on, the PAC has always had no one to blame but themselves.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

It’s actually massively different because Virginia Tech had its sights set on the ACC since its inception in 1953. It was the only original SoCon member not included in the ACC, despite Carolina’s best efforts to include them.

The Big East literally picked the best markets and started a conference for TV purposes. Nobody should ever feel sorry for their lame attempt at a football conference, especially considering VaTech wasn’t allowed to join for Olympic sports for like a decade.

The Big Ten stabbed their longtime partner in back. There’s no comparison in college sports history.

Thanks for proving my point!

Oh, that’s strange. The Big Ten and Pac 10 held up playoff/championship game progress for years because of their special Granddaddy arrangement. It was sooooo sacred, even until recently when the Rosey wanted to keep their NYD date and tradition and parade and blah blah blah STAB right in the back!

Lol, prove me wrong. Please.

The ACC’s crime is being so slow behind in the expansion process. All the newer schools in the conference were available and discussed in the early 90’s. The Big East was well aware of what they were getting into we they invited Miami basketball (lol) and slapped together a football frankenconference to keep Syracuse and Pitt.

If you can’t recognize the difference, then that’s on you and your blinders.
08-05-2022 03:15 PM
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Post: #77
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 03:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-05-2022 01:25 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-05-2022 01:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

It’s actually massively different because Virginia Tech had its sights set on the ACC since its inception in 1953. It was the only original SoCon member not included in the ACC, despite Carolina’s best efforts to include them.

The Big East literally picked the best markets and started a conference for TV purposes. Nobody should ever feel sorry for their lame attempt at a football conference, especially considering VaTech wasn’t allowed to join for Olympic sports for like a decade.

The Big Ten stabbed their longtime partner in back. There’s no comparison in college sports history.

Thanks for proving my point!

Oh, that’s strange. The Big Ten and Pac 10 held up playoff/championship game progress for years because of their special Granddaddy arrangement. It was sooooo sacred, even until recently when the Rosey wanted to keep their NYD date and tradition and parade and blah blah blah STAB right in the back!

Lol, prove me wrong. Please.

The ACC’s crime is being so slow behind in the expansion process. All the newer schools in the conference were available and discussed in the early 90’s. The Big East was well aware of what they were getting into we they invited Miami basketball (lol) and slapped together a football frankenconference to keep Syracuse and Pitt.

If you can’t recognize the difference, then that’s on you and your blinders.

You're right. Big 10 stabbed Pac 10 in the back. ACC cut off the Big East arms, legs and then gutted them. Big 10 was much worse.04-cheers
08-05-2022 03:36 PM
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #78
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 03:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-05-2022 01:25 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-05-2022 01:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:03 AM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 10:29 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  That may be true, but it doesn't justify celebrating deception and betrayal.

Did you celebrate when VT left the Big East for bigger and better things? Or did you lose sleep over it? I mean, you cheer for the ACC (ACC rx), but who am I to judge?

Just like the PAC bitching about the Big XII trying to poach them. Didn't the PAC poach Colorado from them?

The hypocrisy is shining bright!

It’s actually massively different because Virginia Tech had its sights set on the ACC since its inception in 1953. It was the only original SoCon member not included in the ACC, despite Carolina’s best efforts to include them.

The Big East literally picked the best markets and started a conference for TV purposes. Nobody should ever feel sorry for their lame attempt at a football conference, especially considering VaTech wasn’t allowed to join for Olympic sports for like a decade.

The Big Ten stabbed their longtime partner in back. There’s no comparison in college sports history.

Thanks for proving my point!

Oh, that’s strange. The Big Ten and Pac 10 held up playoff/championship game progress for years because of their special Granddaddy arrangement. It was sooooo sacred, even until recently when the Rosey wanted to keep their NYD date and tradition and parade and blah blah blah STAB right in the back!

Lol, prove me wrong. Please.

The ACC’s crime is being so slow behind in the expansion process. All the newer schools in the conference were available and discussed in the early 90’s. The Big East was well aware of what they were getting into we they invited Miami basketball (lol) and slapped together a football frankenconference to keep Syracuse and Pitt.

If you can’t recognize the difference, then that’s on you and your blinders.

So you expected USC/UCLA to become San Diego State and San Jose State with their current conference holding them back? Are people that ignorant? I mean, how many times have you hypocrites laughed at the PAC for their failures, but oh my God, some try to better themselves and they are betraying! Please, you're school will be betraying others in the future too.

As for the Rose Bowl? Who cares, it was successful as long as it could be and now it is just part of the massive change.
As a matter of fact, I wrote this back in January at the Big Ten board.
I wrote
Quote:It would still be the Rose Bowl, there is nothing better.

My point of those teams not cherishing it as much was more toward "progress" and how the Rose Bowl can/has interfered with that. Those schools would probably let go of the Rose Bowl a lot easier than others in the event it had to be sacrificed for an expanded playoff. I love the Rose and what it's stood for. Times are quickly changing, bowls may not mean a damn thing anymore, and as soon as tomorrow.

Don't be surprised by anything about to happen with college football. What was once completley unthinkable has already occured and god only knows what's next!

I wrote this because I could see what was about to transpire. It is not USC/UCLA job to take care of the other 10 schools in that conference. Look at what I wrote earlier about the USC president not wanting to add schools. She didn't want to because ther were none to add! If you all want to call that betrayal, that's cool, it's basically just hurt feelings by others trying to make USC look bad.
08-05-2022 03:37 PM
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lance99 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-01-2022 11:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  The worst example was Missouri. Their president was head of the Big 12 council which was working hard to keep the league together after Texas A&M left while negotiating with the SEC for a Missouri exit. Then while the SEC was willing, because of the late date, to defer Missouri's admission, Missouri refused. They screwed the Big 12, Big East and ACC by rushing out the door.

Keep in mind that Missouri did not have a choice at the time. They strait-up needed the cash due to what was going on at the time on campus(being, IIRC, down 25% enrollment at the time) and need something to fund almost everything, so TV Rights it is......
08-05-2022 07:21 PM
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Post: #80
RE: USC ‘shut down’ potential Pac-12 expansion plans last year
(08-05-2022 07:21 PM)lance99 Wrote:  
(08-01-2022 11:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  The worst example was Missouri. Their president was head of the Big 12 council which was working hard to keep the league together after Texas A&M left while negotiating with the SEC for a Missouri exit. Then while the SEC was willing, because of the late date, to defer Missouri's admission, Missouri refused. They screwed the Big 12, Big East and ACC by rushing out the door.

Keep in mind that Missouri did not have a choice at the time. They strait-up needed the cash due to what was going on at the time on campus(being, IIRC, down 25% enrollment at the time) and need something to fund almost everything, so TV Rights it is......

They could have come out ahead if they stayed because Big 12 was going to cut the exit fee.
08-05-2022 07:47 PM
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