(07-14-2022 11:02 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:22 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The question for any ACC school moving to the Big Ten or SEC isn’t whether they want to do it (as they *all* want to do it).

Instead, the question is whether they’re willing to pay a massive amount of upfront money to the ACC in order to convince the ACC to waive the Grant of Rights agreement. (I don’t love the term “breaking the GOR” because that implies that a school can get out of the GOR automatically even if they pay $1 billion. Ultimately, it’s the *ACC* that has the power to choose or not choose to waive the GOR obligations regardless of the amount of money.)

This is the big takeaway:

Quote:The Grant of Rights is to be executed based on ESPN's agreement. For instance, if new teams are added to the conference via a PAC-12 merger, the current ACC Grant of Rights would be invalidated.

Who told you that, because they're dumb and wrong.

That's a quote from the SI article in OP. But if they're that wrong on the GOR, then their reporting on everything else in the article loses credibility.

I don't blame the journalists. But they're only as good as their sources, who I'm guessing are football coaches and administrators, not people who know anything about contracts.

They tell me that Timmy Johnson is about to commit to Florida State, or de-commit and go to Tennessee instead, that's probably good info. They tell me that the new defensive scheme Miami is going to run next year is a terrible fit for their talent, probably good info. But not on college-president-level stuff.

On the other hand, I remember 10 years ago when I started paying attention to conference realignment, how out-of-the-loop the C7 presidents apparently were, trusting the conference office to handle it and then moving quite quickly when it wasn't being handled.

(07-14-2022 11:15 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 11:02 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:22 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The question for any ACC school moving to the Big Ten or SEC isn’t whether they want to do it (as they *all* want to do it).

Instead, the question is whether they’re willing to pay a massive amount of upfront money to the ACC in order to convince the ACC to waive the Grant of Rights agreement. (I don’t love the term “breaking the GOR” because that implies that a school can get out of the GOR automatically even if they pay $1 billion. Ultimately, it’s the *ACC* that has the power to choose or not choose to waive the GOR obligations regardless of the amount of money.)

This is the big takeaway:

Quote:The Grant of Rights is to be executed based on ESPN's agreement. For instance, if new teams are added to the conference via a PAC-12 merger, the current ACC Grant of Rights would be invalidated.

Who told you that, because they're dumb and wrong.

That's a quote from the SI article in OP. But if they're that wrong on the GOR, then their reporting on everything else in the article loses credibility.

I don't blame the journalists. But they're only as good as their sources, who I'm guessing are football coaches and administrators, not people who know anything about contracts.

They tell me that Timmy Johnson is about to commit to Florida State, or de-commit and go to Tennessee instead, that's probably good info. They tell me that the new defensive scheme Miami is going to run next year is a terrible fit for their talent, probably good info. But not on college-president-level stuff.

On the other hand, I remember 10 years ago when I started paying attention to conference realignment, how out-of-the-loop the C7 presidents apparently were, trusting the conference office to handle it and then moving quite quickly when it wasn't being handled.

I don't think college presidents particularly enjoy the publicity realignment brings. It exposes that there whole show is all about money. They don't like that reality to be pointed out so blatantly. They prefer the high and mighty, holier than thou approach and realignment doesn't allow that.

(07-14-2022 11:15 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 11:02 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:22 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The question for any ACC school moving to the Big Ten or SEC isn’t whether they want to do it (as they *all* want to do it).

Instead, the question is whether they’re willing to pay a massive amount of upfront money to the ACC in order to convince the ACC to waive the Grant of Rights agreement. (I don’t love the term “breaking the GOR” because that implies that a school can get out of the GOR automatically even if they pay $1 billion. Ultimately, it’s the *ACC* that has the power to choose or not choose to waive the GOR obligations regardless of the amount of money.)

This is the big takeaway:

Quote:The Grant of Rights is to be executed based on ESPN's agreement. For instance, if new teams are added to the conference via a PAC-12 merger, the current ACC Grant of Rights would be invalidated.

Who told you that, because they're dumb and wrong.

That's a quote from the SI article in OP. But if they're that wrong on the GOR, then their reporting on everything else in the article loses credibility.

I don't blame the journalists. But they're only as good as their sources, who I'm guessing are football coaches and administrators, not people who know anything about contracts.

They tell me that Timmy Johnson is about to commit to Florida State, or de-commit and go to Tennessee instead, that's probably good info. They tell me that the new defensive scheme Miami is going to run next year is a terrible fit for their talent, probably good info. But not on college-president-level stuff.

On the other hand, I remember 10 years ago when I started paying attention to conference realignment, how out-of-the-loop the C7 presidents apparently were, trusting the conference office to handle it and then moving quite quickly when it wasn't being handled.

"The Big East is in a better position today than it's ever been"

This line was said repeatedly after every single round of defections by former Big East Conference leadership and Presidents. There was a whole lot of denial going around from multiple parties (especially a certain commissioner that continued to promote the idea that the league would recoup a majority of the lost value in these departing members with schools located in large media markets, all while completely ignoring athletic brand value).

Fun times.

(07-14-2022 09:58 AM)esayem Wrote:  I for one will laugh my ass off if Florida State joins the Big Ten. They already complain about not being able to pack their stadium with Clemson and Miami on the yearly schedule, wait until all they get is maybe Ohio State or Michigan once a year. Welcome Rutgers, Illinois, Indiana!!!

Lol, I doubt they'd give a rip when they're cashing >$100M checks every year. What do you think the ACC would be worth without FSU?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

(07-14-2022 11:45 AM)b2b Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:58 AM)esayem Wrote:  I for one will laugh my ass off if Florida State joins the Big Ten. They already complain about not being able to pack their stadium with Clemson and Miami on the yearly schedule, wait until all they get is maybe Ohio State or Michigan once a year. Welcome Rutgers, Illinois, Indiana!!!

Lol, I doubt they'd give a rip when they're cashing >$100M checks every year. What do you think the ACC would be worth without FSU?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

And how much of that money do their fans see? lol.

People are reading waaaay too far into what I'm saying. Of course there is more money for the university. That was never my point.

(07-14-2022 11:37 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 11:15 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 11:02 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:29 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:22 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  This is the big takeaway:

Who told you that, because they're dumb and wrong.

That's a quote from the SI article in OP. But if they're that wrong on the GOR, then their reporting on everything else in the article loses credibility.

I don't blame the journalists. But they're only as good as their sources, who I'm guessing are football coaches and administrators, not people who know anything about contracts.

They tell me that Timmy Johnson is about to commit to Florida State, or de-commit and go to Tennessee instead, that's probably good info. They tell me that the new defensive scheme Miami is going to run next year is a terrible fit for their talent, probably good info. But not on college-president-level stuff.

On the other hand, I remember 10 years ago when I started paying attention to conference realignment, how out-of-the-loop the C7 presidents apparently were, trusting the conference office to handle it and then moving quite quickly when it wasn't being handled.

I don't think college presidents particularly enjoy the publicity realignment brings. It exposes that there whole show is all about money. They don't like that reality to be pointed out so blatantly. They prefer the high and mighty, holier than thou approach and realignment doesn't allow that.

I think those presidents are probably the reason the ACC has this mammoth GOR. It was supposed to put all that to bed for a long time and eliminate the issue. I don't think it worked.

(07-14-2022 10:14 AM)Gamenole Wrote:  I do not want to see FSU in the B1G, but I welcome this speculation. The more plausible such a scenario becomes, I think the more motivated ESPN is to get FSU and the vast majority of the Florida market locked up safely in the SEC.

You won't.

Lots of poker being played here by the Big Four (ESPN, FOX, the B1G and the S-E-C) and those schools most likely to get an invitation to either or both of the Super Two.

Almost everybody outside the innermost circle of the aforementioned entities is certainly out of the loop, e.g. Bob Bowlsby, George Kliavkoff and the rest of the schools in the Big XII and Pac-12 when OU, UT, UCLA and USC said "We outta here"

(07-14-2022 10:33 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:30 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  FSU is a SEC school through and through. But I'd invite Florida in a heartbeat.

If Florida state does go to SEC, I agree that inviting Florida should be the B10's next move to attempt.

I don't think Florida would leave. I always thought Miami w/ ND to the B1G was far more likely than FSU going. FSU would end up in the SEC. I wonder the pecking order of UNC in both conferences? ND 1, I thought UNC 2 for either one. Would FSU jump over them in both? I don't get it, they haven't been good in a while. Where does Clemson fall for the SEC? I thought 3 behind ND, UNC.

(07-14-2022 10:14 AM)Gamenole Wrote:  I do not want to see FSU in the B1G

One other thing about the Noles and the SEC vs. B1G "debate" ...

FSU + Bobby Bowden made the wrong choice choosing the ACC in 1990.

That mistake won't happen again, particularly with a corch like Mike Norvell in place who has no voice in these kinds of decisions

Bull Sh!t. No ACC school is going anywhere. Same with the Pac-10 and Big12. They may add some members from the AAC or MW.

(07-14-2022 12:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:33 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:30 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  FSU is a SEC school through and through. But I'd invite Florida in a heartbeat.

If Florida state does go to SEC, I agree that inviting Florida should be the B10's next move to attempt.

I don't think Florida would leave. I always thought Miami w/ ND to the B1G was far more likely than FSU going. FSU would end up in the SEC. I wonder the pecking order of UNC in both conferences? ND 1, I thought UNC 2 for either one. Would FSU jump over them in both? I don't get it, they haven't been good in a while. Where does Clemson fall for the SEC? I thought 3 behind ND, UNC.

Just because they are negotiating with Florida state, doesn't mean that they are not also gauging interest from Miami. Likely looking for a travel partner. Georgia Tech could be on the menu as well...

My preference right now for the Big 10 is:

ND
Florida St
Miami
4th school TBD

ND is obviously the gem but the FL pair probably means everyone in the league gets a road trip to either CA or FL each year.

There’s definitely some flexibility with that last spot.

(07-14-2022 11:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 11:45 AM)b2b Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:58 AM)esayem Wrote:  I for one will laugh my ass off if Florida State joins the Big Ten. They already complain about not being able to pack their stadium with Clemson and Miami on the yearly schedule, wait until all they get is maybe Ohio State or Michigan once a year. Welcome Rutgers, Illinois, Indiana!!!

Lol, I doubt they'd give a rip when they're cashing >$100M checks every year. What do you think the ACC would be worth without FSU?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

And how much of that money do their fans see? lol.

People are reading waaaay too far into what I'm saying. Of course there is more money for the university. That was never my point.

Yeah, the money is supposed to supplement for a share of the interest fans and advertisers demanding the content. But it’s this pursuit for more money that is driving expansion. Adding Rutgers and Maryland was perhaps more about pushing Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State football into NYC and the Baltimore-DC metro areas than it was the potential for their respective contributions to overall content (though UMD basketball was a good add, as well as the much minor growth UMD lacrosse allowed the conference, like luring Hopkins and gaining AQ).

The drawback to those two adds in the conference tends to be the content created by either schools, including when they line up with the power/business end of the conference. It is a problem when there is no ground support/interest in what results from questionable additions where cultures don’t seem to fully fit.

The schools should care about people/fans not showing up. Especially if it’s turning out they aren’t watching the games on tv or streaming, either. It just pushes more urgency to find new revenue streams, and expansion can’t always be that card to play.

(07-14-2022 09:37 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:20 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 08:52 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  An unusually detailed report from Dustin Lewis suggests that Florida State is in serious discussions with the B1G as well as the SEC.

No one wants to talk about it yet, but a Power 2 world will show a pecking order just as a P5 world does. If multiple ACC schools follow the Irish to the same destination... well... in which conference will 'it just mean more'?



https://www.si.com/college/fsu/football/...conference

It wouldn't surprise me if the B1G is interested in FSU. FSU academics have improved greatly the last 15 years, it is now a solid B1G-level academic school even without AAU.

Plus, adding a school deep in SEC territory would be the kind of bold move that adding USC/UCLA was. It would give the B1G a beachhead iin those southern/Florida recruiting grounds.

For FSU, it would allow them to stay distinctive from Florida. And also, let's face it, like the ACC was for a long time in the 1990s and early 2000s, the B1G would be a much easier launching pad from which to build national title ambitions. The SEC is a meat-grinder.

I still think the SEC is better for FSU. Not sure how many FSU fans really want to play Indiana, Rutgers, Iowa, UCLA, etc. as compared to the SEC schools around them. But it is obviously a better option than the ACC.

The trick, of course, is that nasty GOR.

It would surprise me greatly. As FSU academics improve, the better academics improve even more.

Think of it as a house worth 500k in Queens 10 years ago. Say it's now worth 800k. A Manhattan apartment worth 1m 10 years ago would now be worth 2m today. Both improved but the better locale even more so.

What wouldn't surprise me is Florida blocking FSU or the markets conversation that would block Clemson and GT in theory.

That’s not true, nor is it particularly important even if it were.

FSU has climbed. They are improved vs the field. As you’d expect given the population and economic growth in their state over the last 30 years.

And it’s not about adding the best available academic candidates, it’s just don’t add ones that don’t fit. FSU used to not fit. They are acceptable now, and likely within a decade indistinguishable from several BIG schools.

Exactly. The statement you replied to made no sense. If FSU has steadily been jumping up the rankings over the past couple of decades...it means they're leaping over other schools. They're now sitting at #18 among all publics and would be near the top of the SEC and solidly in the middle of the B1G pack (with more upside than many of them). Throw in the rapidly expanding med school, new research partnership with TMH, hospital facilities under the FSU Health brand going up in Tallahassee and Panama City...the future is very bright in both rankings and research growth. Time will tell but I am more excited about FSU's future as an institution than I've ever been. And let's face it...no school in FL was particularly well-regarded nationally by even the middle of last century... UF, FSU, Miami and increasingly USF and UCF have made incredible strides. Brought to you courtesy of air conditioning!

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...top-public

I'm not sure there's much here. I like this quote, "Florida State is in the process of exploring a move to a new conference". Who isn't? The problem seems more on the other side of the coin, does either the SEC of Big 10 want to add FSU? The articles implies the SEC would add FSU just to "block" the Big 10. I'm not sure the SEC cares that much about the Big 10, but I suppose it's possible. I'm still not sure FSU really adds that much to either conference, even though they are a solid add for either.

(07-14-2022 10:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:24 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think the Big 10 is realistic for FSU at this point in time.

I think the only way they get out of the ACC is if ESPN keeps the ACC happy while sliding them into another ESPN property, the SEC.

If the GOR was easy, Texas and OU would be playing in the SEC this fall. My understanding is the ACC basically used the Big 12 GOR agreement. I don't see ESPN giving up one of their ACC kingpins to a Fox dominated Big 10 while paying the ACC enough on their current TV contract to let them go. And without the other ACC members agreeing, it just gets really messy. Its something no new conference would want to deal with.

Yes - we don't even need to go through hypotheticals of why it's difficult it is to get out of a GOR agreement. We're seeing it NOW! We still don't have any clarity about UT and OU leaving with only 2 seasons left of GOR obligations because it's such a nightmare from a legal perspective. Trying to get out of 14 years of ACC GOR obligations is many magnitudes more difficult.

This comparison needs to stop. It’s egregiously bad.

OU and UT have much less to gain from challenging the GOR. The risk/reward profile, which is what determines these decisions, is substantially different.

The question isn’t a legal one. There is a non-zero chance that those trying to uphold the GOR lose. That’s all that’s needed. Particularly given winning doesn’t change their realignment position, now or come 2036. Settlement does. It’s the only way those schools extract an improved position in the P2 world. The question is whether they can quickly find an exchange of utility that all agree to. Time is only on ESPN’s side.

Schools like Wake, BC, and Cuse absolutely need to cash in on that GOR as soon as possible. If nothing happens and the current ACC reaches near 2036, they’re culled. A premium to the balance of the ACC deal and espn making the leftovers of the ACC the base of the 3rd super conference is an offer they wouldn’t pass up.

(07-14-2022 12:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  I don't think Florida would leave.

A raiding war between the B1G and SEC would sure be interesting, though.

(07-14-2022 09:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:22 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 09:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The question for any ACC school moving to the Big Ten or SEC isn’t whether they want to do it (as they *all* want to do it).

Instead, the question is whether they’re willing to pay a massive amount of upfront money to the ACC in order to convince the ACC to waive the Grant of Rights agreement. (I don’t love the term “breaking the GOR” because that implies that a school can get out of the GOR automatically even if they pay $1 billion. Ultimately, it’s the *ACC* that has the power to choose or not choose to waive the GOR obligations regardless of the amount of money.)

This is the big takeaway:

Quote:The Grant of Rights is to be executed based on ESPN's agreement. For instance, if new teams are added to the conference via a PAC-12 merger, the current ACC Grant of Rights would be invalidated. In that same scenario, a new GoR would have to be drafted and that would allow Florida State to freely leave for a new conference. The reality is that ESPN has all of the power here. Technically the company could reverse course on its deal with the ACC if the profit margins from the SEC expansion outweigh the cost of abanding the ACC Network. And they probably will.

That takeaway in the OP article is simply wrong. I think we've discussed that elsewhere - they're taking a message board interpretation of the GOR that isn't correct. The prior ACC GOR agreement is online and we can generally assume that they have substantially similar terms (as the Big 12 and Pac-12 GOR agreements are also effectively the same). Adding schools to the ACC would absolutely NOT invalidate the GOR. At the same time, the consideration for the GOR was (past tense) the *execution* of the current ESPN contract (not continued performance even if the current ESPN contract goes away) and explicitly an irrevocable grant of rights to the ACC regardless of whether a school remains a member of the league. In addition, the GOR agreement explicitly states that the conference itself isn't allowed to add any new members unless those new members agree to the same GOR terms.

Once again, there's no way out of the GOR outside of the ACC accepting a massive amount of money from a departing school to waive the ACC's rights (which the ACC has an absolute right, whether reasonable or unreasonable, to accept or reject). I know that many of us here are convinced that ESPN will step in and/or trying to shoehorn an argument that's optimal for our favorite school/conference and/or money will solve everything, but that's a very flippant view of just how strong (and most importantly, unambiguous and clear) the GOR agreement terms are here.

I believe you are missing the larger takeaway here. I believe if there is a merger or placement involving 12 schools, or more, possibly all, within the ESPN family, it can be accomplished. It's just a matter of proper procedures before announced intentions. This is why acquisition of the B12 rights, or possibly the PAC's, will be important. Acquiring the Big 12 outright would both allow for segregating schools by value so that ESPN doesn't have to overpay all, but just a few, and could keep outright dominance over the largest market and the 1st and 3rd most profitable college sports regions at the same time. Quite a synergy!

And why this article and FSU's assertion? Leverage. FSU is saying to ESPN find an internal solution to our inequity or we will consider a more radical solution. Add Clemson's voice to this, and it's out there, and ESPN legally tight or not has to consider the threat. Add UNC and UVa which is more legitimate and you attain a critical mass for a more immediate internal solution.

(07-14-2022 12:06 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:14 AM)Gamenole Wrote:  I do not want to see FSU in the B1G

One other thing about the Noles and the SEC vs. B1G "debate" ...

FSU + Bobby Bowden made the wrong choice choosing the ACC in 1990.

That mistake won't happen again, particularly with a corch like Mike Norvell in place who has no voice in these kinds of decisions

Hindsight is 20/20. Bobby thought FSU would have an easier road on the field, which they did. Still, they only won three national championships, and one was by Jimbo in 2013. At the rate the FSU program was winning in the 90's, they could have sustained an SEC-level program and won three national championships as a member of the SEC.

But the SEC has become a financial juggernaut, while the ACC has fallen behind. If the FSU football program would have hit a similar spell of mediocrity as a member of the SEC, there would have been a bigger financial cushion due to the SEC media deals. Plus, a mediocre FSU program would still be hosting attractive regional opponents from the SEC. SEC schools move the needle in Florida in a way the ACC schools do not.

The ACC was a good short-term decision, but the SEC turned out to be the best long-term decision.

(07-14-2022 03:39 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 12:06 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(07-14-2022 10:14 AM)Gamenole Wrote:  I do not want to see FSU in the B1G

One other thing about the Noles and the SEC vs. B1G "debate" ...

FSU + Bobby Bowden made the wrong choice choosing the ACC in 1990.

That mistake won't happen again, particularly with a corch like Mike Norvell in place who has no voice in these kinds of decisions

Hindsight is 20/20. Bobby thought FSU would have an easier road on the field, which they did. Still, they only won three national championships, and one was by Jimbo in 2013. At the rate the FSU program was winning in the 90's, they could have sustained an SEC-level program and won three national championships as a member of the SEC.

But the SEC has become a financial juggernaut, while the ACC has fallen behind. If the FSU football program would have hit a similar spell of mediocrity as a member of the SEC, there would have been a bigger financial cushion due to the SEC media deals. Plus, a mediocre FSU program would still be hosting attractive regional opponents from the SEC. SEC schools move the needle in Florida in a way the ACC schools do not.

The ACC was a good short-term decision, but the SEC turned out to be the best long-term decision.

"Only won three championships"? Anyway, it's been over 30 years since FSU made the decision to join the ACC...so I don't get too caught up with whether it was the right move now. Signing the GOR is another more recent matter.