Not assuming it's a given or anything, but if this round of expansion were to drive Gonzaga to what's left of the PAC 12, what does the WCC do? Seattle would seem to be obvious - do they stop at 9? My assumption is GCU is a non-starter due to for-profit status; do the existing WCC schools look down on Cal Baptist or would they get consideration?

(07-07-2022 10:29 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  Not assuming it's a given or anything, but if this round of expansion were to drive Gonzaga to what's left of the PAC 12, what does the WCC do? Seattle would seem to be obvious - do they stop at 9? My assumption is GCU is a non-starter due to for-profit status; do the existing WCC schools look down on Cal Baptist or would they get consideration?

They were an 8-team league of peer institutions with similar profiles BEFORE Gonzaga became a basketball monster and they added BYU because they opportunistically could, and they added a 9th peer member in Pacific for scheduling convenience.

Going back to 8 teams actually fits their basketball calendar so much better; because the WCC starts its tournament the week before Selection Sunday, 9 weeks after the Christmas weekend, and they had gone to playing 16 conference games with 10 members as part of the "Keep Gonzaga" deal.

(07-07-2022 11:57 AM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 10:29 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  Not assuming it's a given or anything, but if this round of expansion were to drive Gonzaga to what's left of the PAC 12, what does the WCC do? Seattle would seem to be obvious - do they stop at 9? My assumption is GCU is a non-starter due to for-profit status; do the existing WCC schools look down on Cal Baptist or would they get consideration?

They were an 8-team league of peer institutions with similar profiles BEFORE Gonzaga became a basketball monster and they added BYU because they opportunistically could, and they added a 9th peer member in Pacific for scheduling convenience.

Going back to 8 teams actually fits their basketball calendar so much better; because the WCC starts its tournament the week before Selection Sunday, 9 weeks after the Christmas weekend, and they had gone to playing 16 conference games with 10 members as part of the "Keep Gonzaga" deal.

Pacific was 10, which is why I'm thinking they'd like to get back to 10 after BYU and (hypothetically) Gonzaga leave. Are you saying they'd stay at 8 and not bring Seattle in or that they'd add SU and stop at 9?

(07-07-2022 10:29 AM)Just Joe Wrote:  What's the WCC do if Gonzaga leaves?

Bring back Seattle U ... finally!

Add Cal Baptist (and leave the for-profit institutions to the Wacky WAC).

Done!

Seattle could replace Gonzaga/BYU and then there is your 9 team conference with a 16 game round-robin.

Do they need to do anything? Unless St. Mary’s gets to be Gonzaga’s plus-1 somewhere, the WCC is stable and teems with institutional congruity. I don’t know that Seattle or Cal Baptist gets them anywhere except a 18-game schedule for the sake of it. Otherwise, where are Portland and San Diego going to go?

(07-07-2022 12:01 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  Pacific was 10, which is why I'm thinking they'd like to get back to 10 after BYU and (hypothetically) Gonzaga leave. Are you saying they'd stay at 8 and not bring Seattle in or that they'd add SU and stop at 9?

I'm saying they're likely to stay at 8 for the time being and not immediately jump to expand.

The WCC was an 8-team league without BYU and Pacific, very evenly matched and very "one bid" until the late 90s. Pacific was a founding member of the WCC, but left in 1971 because they had football. After dropping football, they wanted back into the WCC. But the WCC kept saying "no thanks." Even after adding BYU. It wasn't until halfway through the first season with BYU, when everyone hated the travel schedule (they had 3 trios: SoCal, Bay Area, PNW/BYU) that they finally invited Pacific.

Then they played 18 conference games for a few years. But that many DOES NOT FIT between Christmas and the start of their conference tournament. That's part of the reason they've been playing 16 conference games with 10 teams the last few years.

So my point is that:
A) Having EIGHT teams works great for them. They can easily play 14 games between New Year's and the start of their conference tourney. Travel partners are fine (if not better).

B) Pacific was an obvious fit, AND going to the Men's Basketball NCAA Tournament 4 times after dropping football (1998-2006). With 2 NCAA wins, ranked in the AP Top 25 multiple years, had the #1 overall draft pick. And the WCC STILL WOULDN'T TAKE THEM for almost 20 years.


OF COURSE Seattle and Cal Baptist are "like-minded institutions" who would be good travel partners (SU/Port, CBU/USD). But the WCC isn't going to add those two immediately JUST TO BE AT TEN. The WCC will only add members if they are content with "This is our conference forever."

The core California group has been together for 70+ years, and they decided to be the "private non-FBS conference" of the west when they added Gonzaga, Portland and USD in the 70s. Everyone else involved from that point on was: BYU. End of list. Compare that to Eastern conferences with 20+ former members. The WCC schools have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. They're all too small to start FBS football (Pacific dropped it in the 90s; USF, SCU, LMU and SMC in the 50s, Portland in 1947; USD is non-scholarship). So the WCC has to assume that anyone they add is there forever.

If they'll make founding member Pacific wait almost 20 years (while the Tigers were having their most successful basketball period ever, the likes of which Seattle and Cal Baptist haven't seen), they're not just going to say "We need 10! You and You!" like other conferences have.

I think Cal Baptist would be a good addition. I'm not trying to disparage CBU or Seattle, or Denver. I'm saying the WCC is going to be extremely selective.

Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

(07-07-2022 01:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

Right. No one from the outside is going to come in via expansion and instantly slot into the same role Gonzaga has been. (Villanova ain't walking through that door).

And it's not like the A-10, where they had Temple and Xavier going to 20 NCAA tournaments and Elite 8s, and in realignment could replace them with VCU, Butler, George Mason coming off Final Fours, and then Davidson was winning 20+ games for like 30 years in a row; and now Loyola coming off a Final Four.

The WCC has 3.01 options:

- Cal Baptist, who is new to DI and hasn't been eligible for that tournament yet.
- Seattle, which hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 1969 (leaving D1 for a while)
- Denver, who has never made the NCAA Tournament.

- Grand Canyon, who has made one NCAA Tournament but has a sizeable amount of baggage over the "For Profit" status it once had and has not successfully shed yet; and seems to be a non-starter for the WCC.

There's no reason to add two of them and hope they "Grow into WCC schools." Tell them "Here's what we'll look for to judge if you're a WCC school" and let them do it in their current conferences and ask again later. That's what the WCC did with Pacific, who was a founding member.

play games?

FWIW, I *know* that GCU is not a DOA candidate for every WCC school. There are ADs and presidents who want them, others who have concerns, including but not limited to their tax status.

Unless Stanford somehow becomes an option, it's basically GCU, Seattle and Denver, likely in that order.

(07-07-2022 05:56 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  FWIW, I *know* that GCU is not a DOA candidate for every WCC school. There are ADs and presidents who want them, others who have concerns, including but not limited to their tax status.

Unless Stanford somehow becomes an option, it's basically GCU, Seattle and Denver, likely in that order.

You like Grand Canyon and Seattle U's chances for an invite when the WCC drops to 9 (or ultimately, perhaps, 8)?

(07-07-2022 05:56 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  FWIW, I *know* that GCU is not a DOA candidate for every WCC school. There are ADs and presidents who want them, others who have concerns, including but not limited to their tax status.

Unless Stanford somehow becomes an option, it's basically GCU, Seattle and Denver, likely in that order.

Doesn't GCU have higher aspirations than the WCC?

It is already two to three times larger than the other schools after BYU is gone.

(07-07-2022 06:21 PM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 05:56 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  FWIW, I *know* that GCU is not a DOA candidate for every WCC school. There are ADs and presidents who want them, others who have concerns, including but not limited to their tax status.

Unless Stanford somehow becomes an option, it's basically GCU, Seattle and Denver, likely in that order.

Doesn't GCU have higher aspirations than the WCC?

It is already two to three times larger than the other schools after BYU is gone.

Where else would they go?

(07-07-2022 03:49 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

Right. No one from the outside is going to come in via expansion and instantly slot into the same role Gonzaga has been. (Villanova ain't walking through that door).

And it's not like the A-10, where they had Temple and Xavier going to 20 NCAA tournaments and Elite 8s, and in realignment could replace them with VCU, Butler, George Mason coming off Final Fours, and then Davidson was winning 20+ games for like 30 years in a row; and now Loyola coming off a Final Four.

The WCC has 3.01 options:

- Cal Baptist, who is new to DI and hasn't been eligible for that tournament yet.
- Seattle, which hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 1969 (leaving D1 for a while)
- Denver, who has never made the NCAA Tournament.

- Grand Canyon, who has made one NCAA Tournament but has a sizeable amount of baggage over the "For Profit" status it once had and has not successfully shed yet; and seems to be a non-starter for the WCC.

There's no reason to add two of them and hope they "Grow into WCC schools." Tell them "Here's what we'll look for to judge if you're a WCC school" and let them do it in their current conferences and ask again later. That's what the WCC did with Pacific, who was a founding member.

If I recall, GCU is now structured as, online/for profit, campus/non-profit. To be honest, I'm not sure what the big deal is any more. Just read an article in the WSJ this week which listed a number of big (non-profit) schools who have partnered with a for-profit company, who is doing the instruction in many of their online courses. People are not finding out until they read the fine print. Seems GCU are at least open about what they are doing.

(07-07-2022 01:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

Correct. Without Gonzaga, it’s all St Marys and USF if they can keep it going. Might hurt recruiting if you can’t pitch playing Gonzaga twice a year too.

A Gonzaga-less WCC isn’t any better than the WAC. Seattle U would join it though, because of history and “like-minded” schools.

(07-07-2022 06:28 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 03:49 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

Right. No one from the outside is going to come in via expansion and instantly slot into the same role Gonzaga has been. (Villanova ain't walking through that door).

And it's not like the A-10, where they had Temple and Xavier going to 20 NCAA tournaments and Elite 8s, and in realignment could replace them with VCU, Butler, George Mason coming off Final Fours, and then Davidson was winning 20+ games for like 30 years in a row; and now Loyola coming off a Final Four.

The WCC has 3.01 options:

- Cal Baptist, who is new to DI and hasn't been eligible for that tournament yet.
- Seattle, which hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 1969 (leaving D1 for a while)
- Denver, who has never made the NCAA Tournament.

- Grand Canyon, who has made one NCAA Tournament but has a sizeable amount of baggage over the "For Profit" status it once had and has not successfully shed yet; and seems to be a non-starter for the WCC.

There's no reason to add two of them and hope they "Grow into WCC schools." Tell them "Here's what we'll look for to judge if you're a WCC school" and let them do it in their current conferences and ask again later. That's what the WCC did with Pacific, who was a founding member.

If I recall, GCU is now structured as, online/for profit, campus/non-profit. To be honest, I'm not sure what the big deal is any more. Just read an article in the WSJ this week which listed a number of big (non-profit) schools who have partnered with a for-profit company, who is doing the instruction in many of their online courses. People are not finding out until they read the fine print. Seems GCU are at least open about what they are doing.

Stigma. Stuffy people, generally look down upon “online schools”. Sure, that has lessened some because of COVID, but don’t expect most WCC fans to welcome GCU. GCU needs time to shed that stigma.

(07-07-2022 06:31 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 06:28 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 03:49 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  Without BYU and Gonzaga, the WCC becomes just another one-bid league in the NCAAT. They aren't likely to attract another school that would be a perennial NCAAT team. So why not at least divide the revenue from that one bid 8 ways instead of 10?

Right. No one from the outside is going to come in via expansion and instantly slot into the same role Gonzaga has been. (Villanova ain't walking through that door).

And it's not like the A-10, where they had Temple and Xavier going to 20 NCAA tournaments and Elite 8s, and in realignment could replace them with VCU, Butler, George Mason coming off Final Fours, and then Davidson was winning 20+ games for like 30 years in a row; and now Loyola coming off a Final Four.

The WCC has 3.01 options:

- Cal Baptist, who is new to DI and hasn't been eligible for that tournament yet.
- Seattle, which hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 1969 (leaving D1 for a while)
- Denver, who has never made the NCAA Tournament.

- Grand Canyon, who has made one NCAA Tournament but has a sizeable amount of baggage over the "For Profit" status it once had and has not successfully shed yet; and seems to be a non-starter for the WCC.

There's no reason to add two of them and hope they "Grow into WCC schools." Tell them "Here's what we'll look for to judge if you're a WCC school" and let them do it in their current conferences and ask again later. That's what the WCC did with Pacific, who was a founding member.

If I recall, GCU is now structured as, online/for profit, campus/non-profit. To be honest, I'm not sure what the big deal is any more. Just read an article in the WSJ this week which listed a number of big (non-profit) schools who have partnered with a for-profit company, who is doing the instruction in many of their online courses. People are not finding out until they read the fine print. Seems GCU are at least open about what they are doing.

Stigma. Stuffy people, generally look down upon “online schools”. Sure, that has lessened some because of COVID, but don’t expect most WCC fans to welcome GCU. GCU needs time to shed that stigma.

Or be good enough to overcome objections

(07-07-2022 05:56 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  FWIW, I *know* that GCU is not a DOA candidate for every WCC school. There are ADs and presidents who want them, others who have concerns, including but not limited to their tax status.

Unless Stanford somehow becomes an option, it's basically GCU, Seattle and Denver, likely in that order.

If Gonzaga left, this could be the membership and travel partners:

Portland-Seattle
Santa Clara-USF
St. Mary's-Pacific
LMU-Pepperdine
CBU-San Diego
GCU-Denver*

I put an asterisk by GCU-Denver because both have issues. GCU has the for-profit issue that bothers some schools and Denver left the WAC because GCU was invited to join. Also, Denver probably needs to add baseball or cross country. They only bring four male sports teams to the WCC (basketball, golf, tennis and soccer). If one or both did not work out, the conference could sit at ten with Seattle and CBU as the additions.

Denver also had issues with Chicago State and Utah Valley. UVU was a community college not too long ago.