Say Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU reformed the conference after the other 4 left. The remaining schools invite Tulsa, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati. Would that 10 team configuration had maintained “power conference” status? Discuss. BTW: I remember Houston waning to go east with those schools, while the other 3 wanted to go west and get into the WAC. But if they all agreed to expand east? Would it have worked? Thoughts?

(06-01-2022 10:53 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Say Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU reformed the conference after the other 4 left. The remaining schools invite Tulsa, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati. Would that 10 team configuration had maintained “power conference” status? Discuss. BTW: I remember Houston waning to go east with those schools, while the other 3 wanted to go west and get into the WAC. But if they all agreed to expand east? Would it have worked? Thoughts?

I like the concept of the SWC surviving, but that's not a power conference. Not now and not then.

one of the biggest factors the SWC did not survive.
the SWC office became the B-12 office.
the 4 schools were in limbo, nobody tried to keep SWC together.

Well, gradually things pretty much would have worked out the same only it was called CUSA instead of SWC.

In reality CUSA formed anyway without Rice, TCU, SMU, Tulsa who started in the WAC. Then first TCU, then later Tulsa, SMU and Rice still joined CUSA.

The main difference is this alternate reality SWC may not have needed the basketball only schools that CUSA started with, like DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, Charlotte, UAB or the football only schools like ECU or Army.

But the basic core was still there with Memphis, Tulane, Lou, Cincy, USM, USF, Houston. Just add TCU, SMU, Rice and Tulsa at the beginning instead of later. The fate of this conference is still the same.

The only thing you can't predict is the fate of some individual schools eventually, would TCU still end up in the Big 12 if they don't hire Gary Patterson in this alternate reality? Do WV, Lou, Cincy, USF, UConn, etc still end up in the same conference they ultimate do?

That’s an intriguing what if and it begs the question “what are the implications out West?”

Does the 10-team WAC still go after San Jose St and UNLV to reach 12 and a CCG?

Geographically, those 12 split more along a 5-7 divide. Might have this sparked a move to 14 either in 1996 or at a later date? Who would those next two call ups be? Quality wise, Boise St and Nevada were the next best but the Smurf Turf didn’t join FBS until 1996.

Would Big West football soldier on with this line up:

San Jose St
Nevada
UNLV
Utah St
NMSU
Boise St
Idaho
UNT

Maybe the WAC never expands at all.

Basketball was almost as lucrative as football back then and the private schools in the SWC stunk save TCU under Billy Tubbs. He might not have even been there yet though.

C-USA was a basketball-centric conference that offered football and eastern exposure for Houston. It also consisted of public schools Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, UAB, etc. Memphis brought the Liberty Bowl as well.

Little known fact, SMU and TCU were supposed to join C-USA together, and at the 11th hour, the Ponies were left out. Not sure why exactly.

(06-02-2022 03:45 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  one of the biggest factors the SWC did not survive.
the SWC office became the B-12 office.
the 4 schools were in limbo, nobody tried to keep SWC together.

The SWC did not become the Big 12 office. Same city, different organizations.

(06-01-2022 10:56 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 10:53 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Say Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU reformed the conference after the other 4 left. The remaining schools invite Tulsa, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati. Would that 10 team configuration had maintained “power conference” status? Discuss. BTW: I remember Houston waning to go east with those schools, while the other 3 wanted to go west and get into the WAC. But if they all agreed to expand east? Would it have worked? Thoughts?

I like the concept of the SWC surviving, but that's not a power conference. Not now and not then.

It was simply CUSA with Rice, SMU and TCU joining earlier than they eventually did.

(06-02-2022 09:44 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 03:45 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  one of the biggest factors the SWC did not survive.
the SWC office became the B-12 office.
the 4 schools were in limbo, nobody tried to keep SWC together.

The SWC did not become the Big 12 office. Same city, different organizations.

The SWC office did not become the Big 12 office. They were different organizations with some of the same staff.

However, the conference voted to have the headquarters in the Dallas area, and to hire the SWC's Steve Hatchell as commissioner. Both of these decisions passed with 7-5 votes.

(06-02-2022 09:35 AM)esayem Wrote:  Basketball was almost as lucrative as football back then and the private schools in the SWC stunk save TCU under Billy Tubbs. He might not have even been there yet though.

C-USA was a basketball-centric conference that offered football and eastern exposure for Houston. It also consisted of public schools Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, UAB, etc. Memphis brought the Liberty Bowl as well.

Little known fact, SMU and TCU were supposed to join C-USA together, and at the 11th hour, the Ponies were left out. Not sure why exactly.

From what I remember back then, it was SMU the one who convinced TCU to apply to C-USA as a package deal but at the end only TCU got invited. 2000-01 was the last season those two were in the same conference.

yeah they were different
same building, same commissioner, same staff

I wonder what 1996-2004 would have in store for some of the other southern independents and start ups had this 10-team SWC continuation come into being:

UAB
USF
UCF
ECU

LA Tech
ULL
Ark St
ULM
MTSU

Does another FBS league coalesce or do we some of the schools as full or affiliate members of the Big West and/or SWC?

(06-01-2022 10:53 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Say Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU reformed the conference after the other 4 left. The remaining schools invite Tulsa, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati. Would that 10 team configuration had maintained “power conference” status? Discuss. BTW: I remember Houston waning to go east with those schools, while the other 3 wanted to go west and get into the WAC. But if they all agreed to expand east? Would it have worked? Thoughts?

In a word, "No".

"Power" in college football is about massive budgets, big stadiums and (mainly) public state universities.

A league consisting of Houston, Rice, SMU, TCU, Tulsa, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati would not have been "power" in the strict definition used today. But that would have been a very solid conference, no doubt.

This scenario poses some interesting questions for TCU.

If there’s no WAC-16 (and I already outlined the difficulties of a WAC-12 with UNLV & SJSU) and TCU spends at a minimum, 1996-2000 in the SWC, do they get an itch to go Westward in 2001 or 2005?

In 2005, the SWC, like the real C-USA, would take a loss of members courtesy of the Big East. Maybe in 2005 you’d see a WAC-12 with TCU plus a Western add:

WAC East: TCU, UTEP, UNM, Colorado St, AFA, Wyoming
WAC West: Utah, BYU, SDSU, Fresno St, Hawaii, UNLV/Boise/SJSU*

I agree, most likely the Mountain West never forms. Big West football probably gets a stay of execution, but probably ultimately suffers the same fate. The WAC would continue with the lineup of today's Mountain West.

(06-02-2022 04:28 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I agree, most likely the Mountain West never forms. Big West football probably gets a stay of execution, but probably ultimately suffers the same fate. The WAC would continue with the lineup of today's Mountain West.

Right. The hybrid nature of the Big West probably still wrecks the league.

At some point in the 21st century, the WAC is going to reach a point where they’ve eroded enough of the Western core of the Big West’s football side to the point that NMSU and UNT decide to shift their full membership to a more Southeasterly (likely still the SBC) league and what true Western schools that are left over end up as independents or far flung affiliates.

(06-02-2022 04:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 04:28 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I agree, most likely the Mountain West never forms. Big West football probably gets a stay of execution, but probably ultimately suffers the same fate. The WAC would continue with the lineup of today's Mountain West.

Right. The hybrid nature of the Big West probably still wrecks the league.

At some point in the 21st century, the WAC is going to reach a point where they’ve eroded enough of the Western core of the Big West’s football side to the point that NMSU and UNT decide to shift their full membership to a more Southeasterly (likely still the SBC) league and what true Western schools that are left over end up as independents or far flung affiliates.

Agreed. The Big West would of eventually died with many of its members eventually going to The Belch.

The other thing a surviving SWC does is potentially wreck the Metro/Great Midwest merger.

These were the lineups for the 1994-95 basketball season, the last before C-USA existed:

Metro (7) - Charlotte, Tulane, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Southern Miss, South Florida, VCU
Great Midwest (7) - Memphis, Saint Louis, Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul, UAB, Dayton

Virginia Tech and Dayton join the A-10, while VCU joins the CAA. This would still give us the same result for the 1995-96 season:

C-USA (11): Charlotte, Tulane, Louisville, Southern Miss, South Florida, Memphis, Saint Louis, Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul, UAB

. . . but the 1996-97 season is an issue for C-USA:

SWC (10): Tulane, Tulsa, Louisville, Southern Miss, Memphis, Cincinnati, TCU, SMU, Houston, Rice
C-USA (6): Charlotte, South Florida, Saint Louis, Marquette, DePaul, UAB

The only independents for 1996-97 were Oral Roberts, Southern Utah, and Wofford. Who would C-USA add, presumably to make it to at least 8 schools, if not 10? New Orleans and Little Rock were having some of their best seasons in the Sun Belt at the time, and obviously fit the geography (especially with Saint Louis in the league). Would South Alabama be a possibility as well? Outside the Sun Belt, College of Charleston was having a great run in the TAAC (now Atlantic Sun). Would C-USA have made an effort to keep VCU?

It also begs the question as to what would have happened with UAB football (joined C-USA in 1999), East Carolina football (joined C-USA football only in 1997, then as a full member in 2001), Army (C-USA football only member from 1998-2005), and South Florida (joined C-USA for football in 2003, then wound up in the Big East in 2005). I would presume ECU and Army join the SWC for football only by 1998, which allows the SWC to hold a championship game:

SWC West: Tulane, Tulsa, TCU, SMU, Houston, Rice
SWC East: Louisville, Southern Miss, Memphis, Cincinnati, ECU*, Army*

Assuming TCU still goes to the "Mountain West" (WAC) in 2005 after the Big East comes a-knockin, and Army departs as well, the SWC likely brings on UAB, UCF, Louisiana Tech, and Marshall. UTEP presumably still wants Texas exposure, they leave the WAC as even incoming TCU would only guarantee them a conference road game "back east" every other year.

WAC Pacific: San Diego State, Fresno State, Hawaii, UNLV, BYU, Utah
WAC Mountain: TCU, Boise State, New Mexico, Colorado State, Wyoming, Air Force
SWC West: UTEP, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, SMU, Houston, Rice
SWC East: Tulane, Southern Miss, ECU, UAB, UCF, Marshall

The non-football Great Midwest/Metro/C-USA would likely be gone as DePaul and Marquette are off to the Big East. Five of the WAC's real-life 2005 football schools (Idaho, NMSU, Nevada, Utah State, San Jose State) would be stuck in the Big West. This would mark the first season (officially) of Sun Belt football, as the Sun Belt now has the upper hand in their partnership of necessity with the Big West. Nevada and San Jose State would join the WAC in 2011, followed by Utah State in 2012.

SBC West: Nevada*, Utah State*, Idaho*, NMSU*, San Jose State*, North Texas
SBC East: FAU, FIU, Troy, Middle Tennessee, Louisiana, ULM, Arkansas State

WKU would become the 14th football member in 2009. South Alabama football joins in 2012, followed by Georgia State and Texas State in 2013, and App State and Georgia Southern in 2014.