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Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:04 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?

If there was a split within the MVFC and the Summit League started sponsoring football, St. Thomas would join that league.
05-12-2022 05:10 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:10 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:04 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?

If there was a split within the MVFC and the Summit League started sponsoring football, St. Thomas would join that league.
Why? Why would non-schollie St. Thomas want to play against teams offering 63?
05-12-2022 05:12 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:12 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:10 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:04 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?

If there was a split within the MVFC and the Summit League started sponsoring football, St. Thomas would join that league.
Why? Why would non-schollie St. Thomas want to play against teams offering 63?

Why wouldn't they? They seem competitive enough considering they got kicked out of their D3 conference for winning too much.
05-12-2022 05:18 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:18 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:12 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:10 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:04 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?

If there was a split within the MVFC and the Summit League started sponsoring football, St. Thomas would join that league.
Why? Why would non-schollie St. Thomas want to play against teams offering 63?

Why wouldn't they? They seem competitive enough considering they got kicked out of their D3 conference for winning too much.

Huge difference between D3 and the Dakota schools. Might as well suggest they play SEC schools.
05-12-2022 05:26 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:26 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:18 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:12 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:10 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 05:04 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?

If there was a split within the MVFC and the Summit League started sponsoring football, St. Thomas would join that league.
Why? Why would non-schollie St. Thomas want to play against teams offering 63?

Why wouldn't they? They seem competitive enough considering they got kicked out of their D3 conference for winning too much.

Huge difference between D3 and the Dakota schools. Might as well suggest they play SEC schools.

Who said anything about playing SEC schools? That's not what I was suggesting.
05-12-2022 05:28 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

I'm not certain Presby has a guaranteed conference, I can't imagine the Big South is too happy at them at the moment
05-12-2022 06:01 PM
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ccd494 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
If a magic wand was waived that eliminated the PFL, these schools wouldn't start offering scholarships and join regional 63 scholarship leagues.

They would drop football.
05-12-2022 06:52 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 06:52 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  If a magic wand was waived that eliminated the PFL, these schools wouldn't start offering scholarships and join regional 63 scholarship leagues.

They would drop football.

Minds can be changed if the right conditions are brought about, and no "magic wand" would be needed.
05-14-2022 10:27 AM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 06:52 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  If a magic wand was waived that eliminated the PFL, these schools wouldn't start offering scholarships and join regional 63 scholarship leagues.

They would drop football.

Agreed. The only exception to that, IMO, would be St. Thomas. They would add scholarships and keep playing somewhere else, even if they had to go independent.

The PFL is fine. All the schools have three things in common: they're D1, they get their football revenue from tuition rather than TV or tickets, and they want the majority of their games to be against similar teams. None of the other stuff matters much.
05-15-2022 10:17 AM
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GoBison Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-15-2022 10:17 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 06:52 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  If a magic wand was waived that eliminated the PFL, these schools wouldn't start offering scholarships and join regional 63 scholarship leagues.

They would drop football.

Agreed. The only exception to that, IMO, would be St. Thomas. They would add scholarships and keep playing somewhere else, even if they had to go independent.

The PFL is fine. All the schools have three things in common: they're D1, they get their football revenue from tuition rather than TV or tickets, and they want the majority of their games to be against similar teams. None of the other stuff matters much.

When (not if) St. Thomas is ready to add 63 scholarship, they will be in the MVFC -- they have a rabid football fanbase, they are willing to invest in FB, and they have a winning tradition -- all the traits the majority of MVFC members are looking for in a new member.

St. Thomas is transitioning from D3... it's going to take them a couple years to fully fund all their athletic teams. In the meantime, Pioneer Football is a good home for them.

The Pioneer Football League serves a purpose in FCS Football... if you don't understand what that is, google the "Dayton Rule"
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2022 04:23 PM by GoBison.)
05-15-2022 04:20 PM
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Post: #71
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-15-2022 04:20 PM)GoBison Wrote:  The Pioneer Football League serves a purpose in FCS Football... if you don't understand what that is, google the "Dayton Rule"

Eight of the 28 schools impacted by the Dayton Rule ended up in the Pioneer.

Alabama-Birmingham: I-AA Independent >> I-A Independent >> Conference USA >> AAC (2023)
Buffalo: I-AA Independent >> MAC
Butler: Pioneer
Cal–Davis: American West >> Big Sky
Cal Poly: American West >> Big Sky
Cal State-Northridge: American West > Big Sky, dropped 2001
Canisius: MAAC, dropped 2002
Central Connecticut: I-AA Independent >> Northeast
Charleston Southern: D-III Independent >> Big South
Davidson: I-AA Independent >> Pioneer
Dayton: Pioneer
Drake: Pioneer

Duquesne: I-AA Independent >> MAAC >> Northeast
Evansville: Pioneer, dropped 1997
Georgetown: MAAC >>> Patriot
Iona: MAAC, dropped 2008
Marist: I-AA Independent >> MAAC >> Pioneer
Sacramento State: American West >> Big Sky
St. Francis (PA): I-AA Independent >> Northeast
St. John's: MAAC >> Northeast >> MAAC, dropped 2003
St. Mary's (CA): I-AA Independent, dropped 2004
St. Peter's MAAC, dropped 2007
San Diego: Pioneer
Siena: MAAC, dropped 2004
Southern Utah American West >> Big Sky
Valparaiso: Pioneer
Wagner: I-AA Independent >> Northeast
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2022 05:21 PM by DFW HOYA.)
05-15-2022 05:15 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
I think seeing how many private schools dropped football post Dayton rule kinda backs the thought that a lot of these schools would drop the sport before they'd add scholarships.
05-15-2022 05:26 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-15-2022 05:26 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think seeing how many private schools dropped football post Dayton rule kinda backs the thought that a lot of these schools would drop the sport before they'd add scholarships.

A lot of I-AA schools thought they'd either all add scholarships or all would drop prior to 1993, where only one actually did (Santa Clara, then a Division II program).

The majority of the drops were either in California or in the MAAC, which was growing increasingly unstable in the early 2000's. Of the six schools that played in the first season of the MAAC, only Georgetown remains as an active program.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2022 05:47 PM by DFW HOYA.)
05-15-2022 05:36 PM
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OscarWildeCat Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
I admit I’ve always thought FCS was weakened by the lack of standardization and competitiveness- non scholarship conferences, conferences that limit scholarships to a number well under the 63 cap for FCS schools, and conferences that don’t send their champions to the playoffs. I suspect this within group variance us one if the reasons top tier FCS programs want to move up to FBS leagues.

This said, I do understand the reasoning for many of these decisions- The pioneer league is made up of academically sound private universities that would struggle to offer 63 scholarships without dramatically affecting d1 competitiveness in other sports, basketball in particular. So, I’ve come to terms with the fact that the FCS is destined to remain a grab bag of widely disparate programs, including the PFL.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2022 06:10 AM by OscarWildeCat.)
05-16-2022 06:08 AM
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