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Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
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Todor Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

63 scholarships x $60k a piece x 2 (for the equivalent add in women's scholarships) = $7.5 million

That's more expensive than a few plane flights.

Since it's a non scholarship conference, PFL teams actually don't play FBS teams, they would not count towards bowl eligibility.

Your larger point is correct, but I’d round the $60K down by quite a bit because the average amount they collect per student is way, way less than that. Private college tuition is highly “flexible” between stated cost and what they just right off in institutional aid that may or may not be backed by any actual funding.

But there is definitely a significant amount on the table plus adding some on the women’s side.
05-09-2022 11:31 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

Pioneer League teams don't get those money games with P5 teams. But you don't even know why they don't.
05-10-2022 03:38 AM
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whittx Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 11:18 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 10:06 PM)TexasCat Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

Honestly I think this financial angle relating to travel and regionalization is overblown for the PFL. For the travel costs associated with the league, the cost savings of not having scholarships far far outweighs that.

Yup. Also, the PFL schools aren't largely in the midsts of the conferences that would potentially be interested in them.

The school that has the worst travel - San Diego - would need to have plane flights regardless of what conference they're in. Even if the Big Sky let them join for some reason, they'd have to fly to all but one or two road games each year. Stetson is in a similar boat, the only other FCS teams in Florida are in the SWAC. A lot of the midwestern schools would also sorta be on an island, none of the PFL schools would get into the MVFC. Marist and Presbyterian could avoid flights, but that ship has certainly sailed for Presby.

You forgot to mention Morehead. They fit into the Presbyterian/Marist mode.
05-10-2022 04:57 AM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

63 scholarships x $60k a piece x 2 (for the equivalent add in women's scholarships) = $7.5 million

That's more expensive than a few plane flights.

Since it's a non scholarship conference, PFL teams actually don't play FBS teams, they would not count towards bowl eligibility.

Dayton's endowment is $609.7 million according to Wikipedia. Butler's is $212.0 million. Athletically, Butler's in the Big East. This post says each Big East school is getting $4.6 million a year from FOX alone. I don't know if every PFL school can "afford" to offer scholarships but at least a few of them certainly can and are just being cheap. Why can Georgetown and Villanova afford scholarships and Butler can't? Why can Fordham and Duquesne afford scholarships and Dayton and Davidson (whose endowment is $1.3 BILLION) can't? I can't speak for every PFL school but at least these schools don't give out scholarships because they don't have to, not because they can't afford to. HBCU's "can afford" to give out scholarships (Delaware State's endowment is $43 million), certainly Davidson can.
05-12-2022 07:18 AM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 07:18 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

63 scholarships x $60k a piece x 2 (for the equivalent add in women's scholarships) = $7.5 million

That's more expensive than a few plane flights.

Since it's a non scholarship conference, PFL teams actually don't play FBS teams, they would not count towards bowl eligibility.

Dayton's endowment is $609.7 million according to Wikipedia. Butler's is $212.0 million. Athletically, Butler's in the Big East. This post says each Big East school is getting $4.6 million a year from FOX alone. I don't know if every PFL school can "afford" to offer scholarships but at least a few of them certainly can and are just being cheap. Why can Georgetown and Villanova afford scholarships and Butler can't? Why can Fordham and Duquesne afford scholarships and Dayton and Davidson (whose endowment is $1.3 BILLION) can't? I can't speak for every PFL school but at least these schools don't give out scholarships because they don't have to, not because they can't afford to. HBCU's "can afford" to give out scholarships (Delaware State's endowment is $43 million), certainly Davidson can.

Georgetown football is non scholarship with no plans for that to change.

As for “affording” scholarships, it’s not just that, it’s the funding required to elevate a program to a scholarship level (facilities, staffing, etc). And for what exactly? Would Davidson get much out of offering traditional FCS football just to be in the Big South or ASUN? Dayton to the OVC or Patriot? Plus endowment has absolutely nothing to do with athletic funding, since it’s not meant to be touched except in often very delineated circumstances, and particularly for private schools, their endowment is an important sign of their financial health and stability.

Some schools are perfectly happy offering Division 3 football under a Division 1 umbrella. You could make the case that more schools in the low end of FCS should consider that route.
05-12-2022 07:26 AM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 07:18 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

63 scholarships x $60k a piece x 2 (for the equivalent add in women's scholarships) = $7.5 million

That's more expensive than a few plane flights.

Since it's a non scholarship conference, PFL teams actually don't play FBS teams, they would not count towards bowl eligibility.

Dayton's endowment is $609.7 million according to Wikipedia. Butler's is $212.0 million. Athletically, Butler's in the Big East. This post says each Big East school is getting $4.6 million a year from FOX alone. I don't know if every PFL school can "afford" to offer scholarships but at least a few of them certainly can and are just being cheap. Why can Georgetown and Villanova afford scholarships and Butler can't? Why can Fordham and Duquesne afford scholarships and Dayton and Davidson (whose endowment is $1.3 BILLION) can't? I can't speak for every PFL school but at least these schools don't give out scholarships because they don't have to, not because they can't afford to. HBCU's "can afford" to give out scholarships (Delaware State's endowment is $43 million), certainly Davidson can.

Using endowment as a measure of if a school can afford scholarships doesn't really make sense. The endowment isn't a Scrooge McDuck vault of cash just sitting around, most of it is tied up in capital projects, specific funds, etc.

Most of these schools could afford to give out scholarships if they wanted to. But if you told Butler they had to spend ~7.5 million dollars (and it would likely be more, since you would be adding a whole new women's sport, which would require more coaches, trainers, etc, on top of the additional football investments needed to compete in a non PFL league), I would bet football scholarships wouldn't even be on their top 20 list.

They could afford to give out scholarships, you can call them cheap if you want, but how much benefit would Butler University get from adding football scholarships and playing in the OVC?

Endowment isn't really a big factor in these type of things, maybe it's indicative of how well the school is at fundraising to some degree, but there's schools at all levels with huge endowments:

UChigago - 11.6 billion endowment, D3, no scholarships

Louisiana Monroe - 23 million, FBS school

UCF - 165 million, about to become a P5 school

William and Mary - 1.2 billion, FCS/CAA

JMU - 116 million, moved from the FCS/CAA to the FBS
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2022 08:48 AM by TDenverFan.)
05-12-2022 08:45 AM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
I liken the Pioneer Football League to them wanting to have their cake and eat it too, have football but not "pay" for it (the scholarships). Obviously Butler and Davidson football doesn't make the same money Penn State and Illinois money make but if they make more money than other sports at these schools in which they give scholarships for (baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, etc) why should football players not get scholarships then? If they're going to charge $10/$20 to attend these games or the head coach is making 6 figures, the players get nothing seems like BS to me. There wouldn't be a football program at these schools if it weren't for the players. If Butler is closer to Wilkes University than North Dakota State in terms of revenue or expenses, I can see why they "can't" give scholarships. Otherwise, cheapskates.
05-12-2022 10:01 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 10:01 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I liken the Pioneer Football League to them wanting to have their cake and eat it too, have football but not "pay" for it (the scholarships). Obviously Butler and Davidson football doesn't make the same money Penn State and Illinois money make but if they make more money than other sports at these schools in which they give scholarships for (baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, etc) why should football players not get scholarships then? If they're going to charge $10/$20 to attend these games or the head coach is making 6 figures, the players get nothing seems like BS to me. There wouldn't be a football program at these schools if it weren't for the players. If Butler is closer to Wilkes University than North Dakota State in terms of revenue or expenses, I can see why they "can't" give scholarships. Otherwise, cheapskates.

I can almost guarantee you the "endowment" funds cannot be used to fund the football program. Almost all of these assets are restricted at most schools. So, a school's endowment has little to do with this discussion.

Further, I am don't think you understand the cost of these minor sports relative to football. First, most olympic sports teams are not fully funded. Scholarships are split amongst all the athletes. My daughter had D1 scholarship offers, but they were only a fraction of the actually tuition. She had academic scholarship offers that were 6-7 times greater at comparable schools. Second, you also have title 9 issues. Third, the cost of 63 full ride scholarships, including room and board, would be in the neighborhood of $3.5-$4.5 million at a private school. This doesn't include the costs of running the program. Villanova spends around $6 million per year on football alone. In other words, Villanova spends more on football than on all their other men's non-basketball sports combined.

I don't really see what the issue is. Most privates cannot financial afford to fund scholarship football, but want to offer the sport on campus. It is great for alumni relations, fundraising and it attracts male students, which are tough to attract. Most of these schools have a long history of playing football. The NCAA dictates they play on the D1 level.

If it was up to Dayton and Drake, they would play D3 football. But, they can't. That said, these schools hold their own. Since being non-scholarship, Drake has beaten a top-10 scholarship FCS team. San Diego was ranked when Harbaugh was the coach. I don't think the other FCS schools mind. In fact, they schedule the Pioneer League teams regularly. There are way bigger problems in college sports than having a conference of non-scholarship teams playing football in the FCS.
05-12-2022 10:53 AM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 10:53 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 10:01 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I liken the Pioneer Football League to them wanting to have their cake and eat it too, have football but not "pay" for it (the scholarships). Obviously Butler and Davidson football doesn't make the same money Penn State and Illinois money make but if they make more money than other sports at these schools in which they give scholarships for (baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, etc) why should football players not get scholarships then? If they're going to charge $10/$20 to attend these games or the head coach is making 6 figures, the players get nothing seems like BS to me. There wouldn't be a football program at these schools if it weren't for the players. If Butler is closer to Wilkes University than North Dakota State in terms of revenue or expenses, I can see why they "can't" give scholarships. Otherwise, cheapskates.

I can almost guarantee you the "endowment" funds cannot be used to fund the football program. Almost all of these assets are restricted at most schools. So, a school's endowment has little to do with this discussion.

Further, I am don't think you understand the cost of these minor sports relative to football. First, most olympic sports teams are not fully funded. Scholarships are split amongst all the athletes. My daughter had D1 scholarship offers, but they were only a fraction of the actually tuition. She had academic scholarship offers that were 6-7 times greater at comparable schools. Second, you also have title 9 issues. Third, the cost of 63 full ride scholarships, including room and board, would be in the neighborhood of $3.5-$4.5 million at a private school. This doesn't include the costs of running the program. Villanova spends around $6 million per year on football alone. In other words, Villanova spends more on football than on all their other men's non-basketball sports combined.

I don't really see what the issue is. Most privates cannot financial afford to fund scholarship football, but want to offer the sport on campus. It is great for alumni relations, fundraising and it attracts male students, which are tough to attract. Most of these schools have a long history of playing football. The NCAA dictates they play on the D1 level.

If it was up to Dayton and Drake, they would play D3 football. But, they can't. That said, these schools hold their own. Since being non-scholarship, Drake has beaten a top-10 scholarship FCS team. San Diego was ranked when Harbaugh was the coach. I don't think the other FCS schools mind. In fact, they schedule the Pioneer League teams regularly. There are way bigger problems in college sports than having a conference of non-scholarship teams playing football in the FCS.

You want football, pay for it (in terms of scholarships). Don't cry because you have to fly to San Diego for games when 90% of FCS schools are willing to not stiff their players.
05-12-2022 11:00 AM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 11:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 10:53 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 10:01 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I liken the Pioneer Football League to them wanting to have their cake and eat it too, have football but not "pay" for it (the scholarships). Obviously Butler and Davidson football doesn't make the same money Penn State and Illinois money make but if they make more money than other sports at these schools in which they give scholarships for (baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, etc) why should football players not get scholarships then? If they're going to charge $10/$20 to attend these games or the head coach is making 6 figures, the players get nothing seems like BS to me. There wouldn't be a football program at these schools if it weren't for the players. If Butler is closer to Wilkes University than North Dakota State in terms of revenue or expenses, I can see why they "can't" give scholarships. Otherwise, cheapskates.

I can almost guarantee you the "endowment" funds cannot be used to fund the football program. Almost all of these assets are restricted at most schools. So, a school's endowment has little to do with this discussion.

Further, I am don't think you understand the cost of these minor sports relative to football. First, most olympic sports teams are not fully funded. Scholarships are split amongst all the athletes. My daughter had D1 scholarship offers, but they were only a fraction of the actually tuition. She had academic scholarship offers that were 6-7 times greater at comparable schools. Second, you also have title 9 issues. Third, the cost of 63 full ride scholarships, including room and board, would be in the neighborhood of $3.5-$4.5 million at a private school. This doesn't include the costs of running the program. Villanova spends around $6 million per year on football alone. In other words, Villanova spends more on football than on all their other men's non-basketball sports combined.

I don't really see what the issue is. Most privates cannot financial afford to fund scholarship football, but want to offer the sport on campus. It is great for alumni relations, fundraising and it attracts male students, which are tough to attract. Most of these schools have a long history of playing football. The NCAA dictates they play on the D1 level.

If it was up to Dayton and Drake, they would play D3 football. But, they can't. That said, these schools hold their own. Since being non-scholarship, Drake has beaten a top-10 scholarship FCS team. San Diego was ranked when Harbaugh was the coach. I don't think the other FCS schools mind. In fact, they schedule the Pioneer League teams regularly. There are way bigger problems in college sports than having a conference of non-scholarship teams playing football in the FCS.

You want football, pay for it (in terms of scholarships). Don't cry because you have to fly to San Diego for games when 90% of FCS schools are willing to not stiff their players.

But... who's crying? None of the PFL teams are complaining, the league has generally been growing more than anything. This post was not created because the AD at Valpo complained about having to travel to Stetson, Marist, and San Diego.
05-12-2022 11:30 AM
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AssKickingChicken Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.
05-12-2022 11:58 AM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
I'm sure the ASUN and OVC would accept affiliates if the Pioneer programs went scholarship.
05-12-2022 12:22 PM
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nodak651 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 11:30 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 10:53 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 10:01 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I liken the Pioneer Football League to them wanting to have their cake and eat it too, have football but not "pay" for it (the scholarships). Obviously Butler and Davidson football doesn't make the same money Penn State and Illinois money make but if they make more money than other sports at these schools in which they give scholarships for (baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, etc) why should football players not get scholarships then? If they're going to charge $10/$20 to attend these games or the head coach is making 6 figures, the players get nothing seems like BS to me. There wouldn't be a football program at these schools if it weren't for the players. If Butler is closer to Wilkes University than North Dakota State in terms of revenue or expenses, I can see why they "can't" give scholarships. Otherwise, cheapskates.

I can almost guarantee you the "endowment" funds cannot be used to fund the football program. Almost all of these assets are restricted at most schools. So, a school's endowment has little to do with this discussion.

Further, I am don't think you understand the cost of these minor sports relative to football. First, most olympic sports teams are not fully funded. Scholarships are split amongst all the athletes. My daughter had D1 scholarship offers, but they were only a fraction of the actually tuition. She had academic scholarship offers that were 6-7 times greater at comparable schools. Second, you also have title 9 issues. Third, the cost of 63 full ride scholarships, including room and board, would be in the neighborhood of $3.5-$4.5 million at a private school. This doesn't include the costs of running the program. Villanova spends around $6 million per year on football alone. In other words, Villanova spends more on football than on all their other men's non-basketball sports combined.

I don't really see what the issue is. Most privates cannot financial afford to fund scholarship football, but want to offer the sport on campus. It is great for alumni relations, fundraising and it attracts male students, which are tough to attract. Most of these schools have a long history of playing football. The NCAA dictates they play on the D1 level.

If it was up to Dayton and Drake, they would play D3 football. But, they can't. That said, these schools hold their own. Since being non-scholarship, Drake has beaten a top-10 scholarship FCS team. San Diego was ranked when Harbaugh was the coach. I don't think the other FCS schools mind. In fact, they schedule the Pioneer League teams regularly. There are way bigger problems in college sports than having a conference of non-scholarship teams playing football in the FCS.

You want football, pay for it (in terms of scholarships). Don't cry because you have to fly to San Diego for games when 90% of FCS schools are willing to not stiff their players.

But... who's crying? None of the PFL teams are complaining, the league has generally been growing more than anything. This post was not created because the AD at Valpo complained about having to travel to Stetson, Marist, and San Diego.

Stiffing players? Seriously? Pioneer Leage players aren't being stiffed - nobody is forcing them to play there, and odds are, many wouldn't be playing, if not for free.
The schools spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on them just so they can play football for fun, in front of pretty much zero fans. None of the Pioneer schools are generating enough ticket revenue ticket revenue that's anything near enough to cover expenses. Give me a break... who is getting stiffed? The general student population, which to a large extent, is financing these football programs. Not that I feel sorry for them either - nobody forced them to go to an expensive private school. Why are we all of a sudden acting like college athletes are getting screwed? Nobody is forcing them to play - they choose to. I'd love to get paid for playing sports as well, unfortunately for me, I'm not a P5 football athlete, and neither are the Pioneer League football players. Complaining about coaches pay? Many of the guys playing at their respective programs are they because of that coach, who is paid to coach THEM, meaning they receive value in that expense as well, unless they are no better than a typical high school coach, which I highly doubt...
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2022 12:31 PM by nodak651.)
05-12-2022 12:30 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2022 04:24 PM by andybible1995.)
05-12-2022 04:08 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.
05-12-2022 04:28 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.
05-12-2022 04:46 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
It will be interesting to see if there is a split between the upper crust and the rest of the NCAA, how things will recalibrate. Without being able to take a cut of men’s basketball tournament revenue, will it make sense for a lot these schools to stay DI and/or continue to sponsor FCS football. We might start to see a lot more Pioneer League level football teams out there.
05-12-2022 05:00 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

1) Again, WHO is paying. Most schools don't make enough from alumni or ticket sales. The entertainment value is there regardless of scholarships
2) Sure, there are examples, but only one Pioneer League team is western.
3) No, a countable win is a countable win. P5 would rather pay NAU $600K and sellout than pay Georgia Southern $1.8 Million and sell out. If the choice was between Alabama playing Ohio State or Austin Peay, sure. But that is not what is being replaced.
4) Why would a non-schollie team want to play in a scholarship league? Football is 4 road games. Maybe 2 OOC road games. Travel for football isn't the issue. It is the travel for all other sports, which doesn't concern football at all.
05-12-2022 05:02 PM
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andybible1995 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 05:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It will be interesting to see if there is a split between the upper crust and the rest of the NCAA, how things will recalibrate. Without being able to take a cut of men’s basketball tournament revenue, will it make sense for a lot these schools to stay DI and/or continue to sponsor FCS football. We might start to see a lot more Pioneer League level football teams out there.

That's entirely possible. The lower tier teams will likely drop down to D2, and probably eliminate football to save on money if necessary. Others like Belmont and Murray State will remain and will band together with other teams and form their own conferences.
05-12-2022 05:03 PM
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nodak651 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-12-2022 04:46 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:28 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 04:08 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-12-2022 11:58 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Only Stetson, Morehead, and Presbyterian would be guaranteed a conference home if they started offering scholarships.

That's part of the point that I was trying to get at with this thread. The ASUN, OVC and Big South are hurting for members right now. By adding the three teams mentioned on this post to their respective conferences, those three conferences will have more members to their football conferences, and by adding Presbyterian back to the Big South, it gets them out of this odd partnership with the OVC. Those teams will be better off when the FCS as a whole has to make adjustments to their budgets once the money select teams get from being blown out by 60-70 points to a P5 team dries up, not counting the Pioneer League. The FCS will want to trim of some of the excess fat that the league has, and have fewer, more regionalized conferences.

1) Who is paying for 126 scholarships per team
2) Most FCS conferences are regionalized already
3) Until the FCS game as a counter rule is eliminated, that point is invalid. There is not a reason to eliminate it.
4) Why does the existence of the Pioneer League bother people? It doesn't bother any FCS fans. More Football the better.

1. They are paid through either donations from alumni or student fees. Students pay for the entertainment on campus, and college football is an entertainment option at a college.
2. Yes, most conferences at that level are regionalized. However, conferences like the WAC and Big Sky, as well as the Big South (when they sponsored football) are not. Bryant and Robert Morris are in the northeast and play southern based teams. The WAC consists of teams from Texas and Utah. Thats a lot of travel for teams between those two states. The Big Sky also has a lot of travel within the conference even though it consists of western state based teams.
3. Do you not think that if the rule was eliminated, the P5 teams would spend the money on more marquee matchups rather than playing an FCS team? The P5 understands where the money is made, and they would be willing to spend that money on a marquee matchup if it means increasing their chances at making the playoff.
4. I don't have an issue with the league. My issue is that the teams in that league are private schools that sponsor non-scholarship football that would be much better off in regional based conferences, even if they were added as a non-scholarship member, if that would be allowed.

I think that's a reach... Look at St. Thomas for example. How do you think that would play out for them?
05-12-2022 05:04 PM
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