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Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
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DFW HOYA Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 08:49 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Would Georgetown and the Ivies ever go for a plan where Hoyas football is technically an independent but plays a full Ivy League schedule?

Maybe Georgetown could find their stride if they were only playing 1-2 scholarship teams a year (and Patriot League/NEC/MEAC ones at that) and then 8 Ivies and some PFL teams for the remainder?

(Maybe they even work it out so they end the season on the road at San Diego or Stetson each year for a “bowl feel” to close out the year)

The Ivy League looks at Georgetown the way the ACC looks at West Virginia: "don't call us, we'll call you". This type of scheduling proposal has been discussed but they have no interest in doing Georgetown any favors.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2022 01:42 PM by DFW HOYA.)
05-09-2022 10:16 AM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 09:23 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I don't get why people get so bent out of shape at the Pioneer's existence. Just because Marist is playing Valparaiso doesn't mean that North Dakota State-South Dakota State is less enjoyable.

I would surmise the frustration lies in the fact the top FCS programs that are formidable get lumped in together with those Pioneer League programs due to the FCS label.

This association helps push top FCS programs to the G5

I disagree. What percentage of football fans know that Marist has a team? 0.0003%? Who is lumping them together?

Who is saying "Hey, I was going to watch the FCS title game, but because Butler and Presbyterian played each other in October, I'm completely out and think NDSU is a joke"?

Agreed, it is a non issue. Most fans aren't even aware of the FCS. That is what pushes the top teams out and into the FBS.
05-09-2022 10:29 AM
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MU88 Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-08-2022 06:37 PM)whittx Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 06:06 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 06:00 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 04:19 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  The Pioneer League is the only non-scholarship football league at the FCS.

Don't forget the Ivy League.


You're right. I forgot about that one.

Speaking of the Ivy League, at least that conference has direction as it consists of the elite private schools in the Northeast. My only issue with them is that they don't participate in the FCS playoffs because it would be a distraction to their academic mission. Yale claimed multiple national titles back in the last century, and was considered a powerhouse as a result. Who wouldn't want to see them go up against North Dakota State in the FCS National Championship?

And with the move toward making the schools more accessible to folks that can qualify academically, most Ivy's are giving defacto athletic scholarships to qualified students whose families are making less than $80-100k (depending on the school).

There is an agreement between all the schools in the Ivy League. All the Ivies are free for any student whose family earns less than $100,000. There is a sliding scale after that. You can go on any of the schools' websites and they have calculators to determine your tuition cost.

The advantage for athletes is that if a coach sponsors them, they usually get admitted. With admittance to Ivies at less than 4% of applicants, that becomes a huge advantage. Virtually none of the athletes at the Ivies would have gotten in the school without sports. That is not to say the kids are not qualified. But, the competition is a fierce, the odds are stacked against them.
05-09-2022 11:37 AM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 09:23 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I don't get why people get so bent out of shape at the Pioneer's existence. Just because Marist is playing Valparaiso doesn't mean that North Dakota State-South Dakota State is less enjoyable.

I would surmise the frustration lies in the fact the top FCS programs that are formidable get lumped in together with those Pioneer League programs due to the FCS label.

This association helps push top FCS programs to the G5

I disagree. What percentage of football fans know that Marist has a team? 0.0003%? Who is lumping them together?

Who is saying "Hey, I was going to watch the FCS title game, but because Butler and Presbyterian played each other in October, I'm completely out and think NDSU is a joke"?

They may not know who a teams like Marist is specifically, but if you're not FBS, you are going to get associated with 2nd tier football. Part once you leave the top tier of the FCS, the quality drops dramatically. NDSU may be just as good as virtually all MAC schools, but because they are FCS, they will always be the underdog to a MAC school.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2022 11:42 AM by solohawks.)
05-09-2022 11:41 AM
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MU88 Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
As for FCS, I would imagine the Pioneer would like to be more geographically compact. But, I think all the schools in the league recognize that they are the one league can provide a home for schools who want to play football on the non-scholarship level and remain D1 in other sports. So, they admit schools from all over the country.

The schools in the Pioneer are either schools that have long histories playing college football or start-ups. For example, Drake has a long history of success on the football field. They were D1 till the early 80s when they were forced to drop to 1-AA. They tried playing 1-AA for a few years, but playing scholarship football at the 1-AA was not economically viable at a small private school. The non-scholarship league gives the school the option to continue playing football. Dayton was a D3 football power till they were forced back to D1 by the NCAA. I don't believe any of the privates in the Pioneer would play football, if forced to offer scholarships.
05-09-2022 11:46 AM
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otis campbell Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

Says you. Valpo and Drake are in the Missouri Valley together. Certainly Valpo, Butler, Dayton and Drake are looking for students in similar areas, St Thomas as well. Probably the southern schools look for similar students.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2022 12:00 PM by otis campbell.)
05-09-2022 12:00 PM
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MU88 Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 12:00 PM)otis campbell Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

Says you. Valpo and Drake are in the Missouri Valley together. Certainly Valpo, Butler, Dayton and Drake are looking for students in similar areas, St Thomas as well. Probably the southern schools look for similar students.

Lot of similarities between Butler, Drake, St. Thomas, Dayton and Valpo. They recruit the same type of kids from the same geographic areas. I would guess those schools have a lot in common as far as academics and mission with San Diego, Davidson, Presbyterian, Stetson and Marist too. Morehead State is bit different, but actually, they are kind of in the middle of the midwest and east coast schools. Side note, I think all the schools like having San Diego in the conference. It gives the kids a nice trip every other year and it gets the schools names out on the west coast.
05-09-2022 12:11 PM
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ccd494 Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 11:41 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:23 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I don't get why people get so bent out of shape at the Pioneer's existence. Just because Marist is playing Valparaiso doesn't mean that North Dakota State-South Dakota State is less enjoyable.

I would surmise the frustration lies in the fact the top FCS programs that are formidable get lumped in together with those Pioneer League programs due to the FCS label.

This association helps push top FCS programs to the G5

I disagree. What percentage of football fans know that Marist has a team? 0.0003%? Who is lumping them together?

Who is saying "Hey, I was going to watch the FCS title game, but because Butler and Presbyterian played each other in October, I'm completely out and think NDSU is a joke"?

They may not know who a teams like Marist is specifically, but if you're not FBS, you are going to get associated with 2nd tier football. Part once you leave the top tier of the FCS, the quality drops dramatically. NDSU may be just as good as virtually all MAC schools, but because they are FCS, they will always be the underdog to a MAC school.

Does that change if the Pioneer League doesn't exist?
05-09-2022 01:33 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 01:33 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 11:41 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:23 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I don't get why people get so bent out of shape at the Pioneer's existence. Just because Marist is playing Valparaiso doesn't mean that North Dakota State-South Dakota State is less enjoyable.

I would surmise the frustration lies in the fact the top FCS programs that are formidable get lumped in together with those Pioneer League programs due to the FCS label.

This association helps push top FCS programs to the G5

I disagree. What percentage of football fans know that Marist has a team? 0.0003%? Who is lumping them together?

Who is saying "Hey, I was going to watch the FCS title game, but because Butler and Presbyterian played each other in October, I'm completely out and think NDSU is a joke"?

They may not know who a teams like Marist is specifically, but if you're not FBS, you are going to get associated with 2nd tier football. Part once you leave the top tier of the FCS, the quality drops dramatically. NDSU may be just as good as virtually all MAC schools, but because they are FCS, they will always be the underdog to a MAC school.

Does that change if the Pioneer League doesn't exist?

Fair point, it does not change that underlying problem.

But it would help the FCS brand if there was a 3rd Tier of D1 football. Just like an FCS school would never win the CFP, a Pioneer League school will never win the FCS Playoffs.

Having a 3rd Tier and allowing a more elite FCS level would help the NDSU's of the world by creating a more stable division for them to house their program.
05-09-2022 02:03 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 09:23 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I don't get why people get so bent out of shape at the Pioneer's existence. Just because Marist is playing Valparaiso doesn't mean that North Dakota State-South Dakota State is less enjoyable.

I would surmise the frustration lies in the fact the top FCS programs that are formidable get lumped in together with those Pioneer League programs due to the FCS label.

This association helps push top FCS programs to the G5

I disagree. What percentage of football fans know that Marist has a team? 0.0003%? Who is lumping them together?

Who is saying "Hey, I was going to watch the FCS title game, but because Butler and Presbyterian played each other in October, I'm completely out and think NDSU is a joke"?

No one is lumping them together. I wasn't even trying to lump them together. The point I was getting at is these teams would be better off being in a more geographically regional base conference that way they can play more regional based teams.
05-09-2022 02:22 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 11:46 AM)MU88 Wrote:  As for FCS, I would imagine the Pioneer would like to be more geographically compact. But, I think all the schools in the league recognize that they are the one league can provide a home for schools who want to play football on the non-scholarship level and remain D1 in other sports. So, they admit schools from all over the country.

The schools in the Pioneer are either schools that have long histories playing college football or start-ups. For example, Drake has a long history of success on the football field. They were D1 till the early 80s when they were forced to drop to 1-AA. They tried playing 1-AA for a few years, but playing scholarship football at the 1-AA was not economically viable at a small private school. The non-scholarship league gives the school the option to continue playing football. Dayton was a D3 football power till they were forced back to D1 by the NCAA. I don't believe any of the privates in the Pioneer would play football, if forced to offer scholarships.

You're probably right. Almost all of them would drop the sport if they were forced into that position.
05-09-2022 02:26 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 12:00 PM)otis campbell Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

Says you. Valpo and Drake are in the Missouri Valley together. Certainly Valpo, Butler, Dayton and Drake are looking for students in similar areas, St Thomas as well. Probably the southern schools look for similar students.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they can play more regional based teams in a geographically regional based conference, whether they are private or public. Do you not think Butler and Valpo would want to play Indiana State on a more regular basis in football?
05-09-2022 02:29 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2022 02:33 PM by andybible1995.)
05-09-2022 02:32 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:29 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 12:00 PM)otis campbell Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

Says you. Valpo and Drake are in the Missouri Valley together. Certainly Valpo, Butler, Dayton and Drake are looking for students in similar areas, St Thomas as well. Probably the southern schools look for similar students.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they can play more regional based teams in a geographically regional based conference, whether they are private or public. Do you not think Butler and Valpo would want to play Indiana State on a more regular basis in football?

The regional scholarship teams don’t want non-scholarship teams in their conference. Non-scholarship teams have done a cost/benefit analysis and concluded the saved expenses are worth more to them.
05-09-2022 02:49 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

63 scholarships x $60k a piece x 2 (for the equivalent add in women's scholarships) = $7.5 million

That's more expensive than a few plane flights.

Since it's a non scholarship conference, PFL teams actually don't play FBS teams, they would not count towards bowl eligibility.
05-09-2022 02:54 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:49 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:29 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 12:00 PM)otis campbell Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

Says you. Valpo and Drake are in the Missouri Valley together. Certainly Valpo, Butler, Dayton and Drake are looking for students in similar areas, St Thomas as well. Probably the southern schools look for similar students.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they can play more regional based teams in a geographically regional based conference, whether they are private or public. Do you not think Butler and Valpo would want to play Indiana State on a more regular basis in football?

The regional scholarship teams don’t want non-scholarship teams in their conference. Non-scholarship teams have done a cost/benefit analysis and concluded the saved expenses are worth more to them.

I understand that, but like I said in my previous reply to someone, eventually all that money the FCS schools get from being blown out by P5/G5 teams is going to dry up once the powers that be breakaway from the NCAA. Everyone not in the club so to speak will have to make adjustments, even if it means spending money to survive.
05-09-2022 02:58 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:03 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Just like an FCS school would never win the CFP, a Pioneer League school will never win the FCS Playoffs.

Perhaps winning the Pioneer Football League is enough.

The Pioneer seems like a good thing. Schools in this league want to continue in Division I and continue fielding football, but without the expensive scholarships. The Pioneer enables them to do this with a level playing field, and without becoming cannon fodder in another league (like the Missouri Valley, Southern, Big Sky, or whatever).
05-09-2022 04:53 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
I don't know how it works across the FCS as a whole, but Pioneer league schools are important to UND, NDSU, and other MVFC schools, as the Pioneer League games are usually scheduled early in the season as buy games, similar to the FBS vs FCS money games. UND plays a home game vs Drake or Valpo or someone like that almost every year with no return game. In UND's case, this offsets our annual FBS away game while at the same time it allows us to maintain a balanced schedule with only D1 teams. I'm not sure that would be possible without the Pioneer League, as most schools either want home and homes or wouldn't be willing to travel that far. The Big Sky plays a bunch of D2 schools and conference schools in the non conference schedule because this isn't an option that is really available to them, due to location.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2022 05:25 PM by nodak651.)
05-09-2022 05:23 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

Honestly I think this financial angle relating to travel and regionalization is overblown for the PFL. For the travel costs associated with the league, the cost savings of not having scholarships far far outweighs that.
05-09-2022 10:06 PM
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RE: Does the FCS need the Pioneer League?
(05-09-2022 10:06 PM)TexasCat Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 02:32 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 08:50 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:38 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(05-08-2022 09:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  Why is there an assumption that the Pioneer League has no direction? Just because of the geography? Do y'all know why teams bother fielding non scholarship programs to begin with?


It's not just the geography of the league. It's the fact that none of these teams have anything in common with each other, other than they just play non-scholarship football.

They're almost all private schools, almost all small enrollment, and most are committed to having a competitive D-I experience in multiple other sports.

I understand that, but the day is going to come when the P5 smackdown money dries up, and all the FCS schools are going to have make financial adjustments and play a more regional based schedule in a regional based conference.

Honestly I think this financial angle relating to travel and regionalization is overblown for the PFL. For the travel costs associated with the league, the cost savings of not having scholarships far far outweighs that.

Yup. Also, the PFL schools aren't largely in the midsts of the conferences that would potentially be interested in them.

The school that has the worst travel - San Diego - would need to have plane flights regardless of what conference they're in. Even if the Big Sky let them join for some reason, they'd have to fly to all but one or two road games each year. Stetson is in a similar boat, the only other FCS teams in Florida are in the SWAC. A lot of the midwestern schools would also sorta be on an island, none of the PFL schools would get into the MVFC. Marist and Presbyterian could avoid flights, but that ship has certainly sailed for Presby.
05-09-2022 11:18 PM
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