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WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-09-2022 09:16 PM)inutech Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:03 PM)BeatWestern! Wrote:  According to SI's Ross Dellenger, every conference is considering eliminating divisions.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RossDellenger..._bwqUqAAAA

I believe the NCAA Council plans to meet next week and if this is approved as expected, the MAC could move to eliminate its football divisions and vote to add WKU as its 13th member.

Why?

That's still a stupid number of teams for a conference. WKU would still be leaving their big rival behind and joining without any other southern schools. They'd still be leaving without getting the buy outs. They'd presumably still be on the hook for a long commitment.

I doubt the only thing preventing the MAC from taking WKU only was the fear of uneven divisions.

I would be for it if WKU was going to bring a Top 20 BB team into the MAC, directly making it a 2 bid conference.

But they aren't on that level so what is the point?
05-09-2022 10:00 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #42
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-09-2022 09:16 PM)inutech Wrote:  I doubt the only thing preventing the MAC from taking WKU only was the fear of uneven divisions.

After the experience of uneven divisions with Temple (which UMass was supposed to fix until the old Big East found themselves in a position where they wanted Temple back) & uneven divisions with UMass, it was likely sufficient.

I am a little skeptical about the MAC taking the "opportunity" to play with 13 in a divisionless set-up, but I would not be surprised if going divisionless allows the "right" two adds to be made, without having to worry about whether the pair works to move Toledo and Bowling Green into the same division.

I don't think WKU is appealing enough to carry "whatever 14th school is available" in its wake, though ... it seems like it would have to be like the WKU/MTSU add, two schools which each justify their own add.
05-10-2022 05:47 PM
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Post: #43
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
I think WKU to the MAC is still alive. How high is the probability of it happening...let's wait 2-3 year and then reassess.
05-13-2022 03:45 PM
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Post: #44
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-10-2022 05:47 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:16 PM)inutech Wrote:  I doubt the only thing preventing the MAC from taking WKU only was the fear of uneven divisions.

After the experience of uneven divisions with Temple (which UMass was supposed to fix until the old Big East found themselves in a position where they wanted Temple back) & uneven divisions with UMass, it was likely sufficient.

I am a little skeptical about the MAC taking the "opportunity" to play with 13 in a divisionless set-up, but I would not be surprised if going divisionless allows the "right" two adds to be made, without having to worry about whether the pair works to move Toledo and Bowling Green into the same division.

I don't think WKU is appealing enough to carry "whatever 14th school is available" in its wake, though ... it seems like it would have to be like the WKU/MTSU add, two schools which each justify their own add.

Yes - I think that's the main point that needs to be emphasized.

The MAC didn't want simply WKU or WKU plus a random 14th school.

They wanted the WKU/MTSU combo *specifically*. WKU brought the better fan base and on-the-field/court history while MTSU brought the entry into the major fast-growing market of Nashville. WKU propped up where MTSU was weak (actual athletic performance) and MTSU propped up where WKU was weak (demographics and market). Add on the geographic proximity to each other and fact that they're natural rivals would have unlocked more value (at least in the eyes of the MAC) than either one of those schools alone or being paired with a school where there isn't any synergy (e.g. UMass or some other C-USA school).
05-13-2022 03:55 PM
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Milwaukee Online
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Post: #45
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 03:55 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(05-10-2022 05:47 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:16 PM)inutech Wrote:  I doubt the only thing preventing the MAC from taking WKU only was the fear of uneven divisions.

After the experience of uneven divisions with Temple (which UMass was supposed to fix until the old Big East found themselves in a position where they wanted Temple back) & uneven divisions with UMass, it was likely sufficient.

I am a little skeptical about the MAC taking the "opportunity" to play with 13 in a divisionless set-up, but I would not be surprised if going divisionless allows the "right" two adds to be made, without having to worry about whether the pair works to move Toledo and Bowling Green into the same division.

I don't think WKU is appealing enough to carry "whatever 14th school is available" in its wake, though ... it seems like it would have to be like the WKU/MTSU add, two schools which each justify their own add.

Yes - I think that's the main point that needs to be emphasized.

The MAC didn't want simply WKU or WKU plus a random 14th school.

They wanted the WKU/MTSU combo *specifically*. WKU brought the better fan base and on-the-field/court history while MTSU brought the entry into the major fast-growing market of Nashville. WKU propped up where MTSU was weak (actual athletic performance) and MTSU propped up where WKU was weak (demographics and market). Add on the geographic proximity to each other and fact that they're natural rivals would have unlocked more value (at least in the eyes of the MAC) than either one of those schools alone or being paired with a school where there isn't any synergy (e.g. UMass or some other C-USA school).

The leadership of the MAC and CUSA has been remarkably unimaginative. They could be in much better shape than they're in with strategic leadership.

Given the fact that ESPN gave the MAC (literally) a golden opportunity to expand, it seems odd that they gave up on the idea when MTSU turned them down, considering the fact that there was a solid option available to them.

In addition to WKU, they probably could have added North Dakota State as a FB-only member. NDSU is located 1 mile from the Minnesota border, making them a midwestern university. Moreover, NDSU's airport is only 3 miles from their campus.

North Dakota State has such a large national following that they would most likely be the highest-viewership team in the conference.

If they were to join the MAC, NDSU would prefer to keep their other sports in their current conference, since this would minimize their travel costs.

There are plenty of universities with good basketball programs near the center of the MAC's footprint, such as Northern Kentucky, which would probably jump at the chance to earn more broadcasting revenue and cut their travel costs.

MAC East: Buffalo, Akron, Kent St., Ohio, Toledo, EMU, BGSU

MAC West: NIU, WKU, NDSU/NKU, Ball St., Miami (OH), CMU, WMU

The addition of WKU and NDSU/NKU would make the MAC a stronger MBB conference and a much more competitive football conference with much greater viewership potential.

.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2022 05:48 PM by Milwaukee.)
05-13-2022 05:45 PM
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Post: #46
WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

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05-13-2022 06:28 PM
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Post: #47
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 03:45 PM)topper1296 Wrote:  I think WKU to the MAC is still alive. How high is the probability of it happening...let's wait 2-3 year and then reassess.

Especially since it's more likely than not the American and Sun Belt are back-filling again in that time frame you mention.

"The first option isn't always the best option"
05-13-2022 06:32 PM
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Post: #48
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 06:28 PM)b2b Wrote:  I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

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Which is why you need the package of the two of them because they sandwich Nashville as opposed to being in Nashville. It’s also partly why I don’t see MTSU ever getting in the AAC over an Old Dominion or Georgia St — MTSU is too suburban on the urban-suburban spectrum.
05-13-2022 07:16 PM
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Milwaukee Online
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Post: #49
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 07:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 06:28 PM)b2b Wrote:  I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

Which is why you need the package of the two of them because they sandwich Nashville as opposed to being in Nashville. It’s also partly why I don’t see MTSU ever getting in the AAC over an Old Dominion or Georgia St — MTSU is too suburban on the urban-suburban spectrum.

Thus far, ESPN has only allowed the AAC to add MWC or CUSA teams. It seems unlikely that is going to change.
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Post: #50
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 07:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 06:28 PM)b2b Wrote:  I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

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Which is why you need the package of the two of them because they sandwich Nashville as opposed to being in Nashville. It’s also partly why I don’t see MTSU ever getting in the AAC over an Old Dominion or Georgia St — MTSU is too suburban on the urban-suburban spectrum.


IWokeUp is always a voice of reason and accuracy. And this is another spot-on assessment.

The MTSU/WKU/Nashville dynamic is noteworthy in the G5 conference realignment narrative. I attended MTSU and have visited the WKU campus multiple times. I strongly recall the rivalry in the 1980s, when both schools were in the OVC. In addition, I live in downtown Nashville and am a Vanderbilt man. As such, I have seen first-hand the many moving parts to the rivalry between the two schools, how they "interact" with the Nashville media/college sports fan base, how they work better for any league combined rather than solo, etc. In fact, I'm not sure there are many parallels (if any) on the G5 level — and not many on the P level, for that matter.

C-USA is fortunate to still have both schools. And the MAC would benefit from having both join.
05-13-2022 07:56 PM
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Milwaukee Online
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Post: #51
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 06:32 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 03:45 PM)topper1296 Wrote:  I think WKU to the MAC is still alive. How high is the probability of it happening...let's wait 2-3 year and then reassess.

Especially since it's more likely than not the American and Sun Belt are back-filling again in that time frame you mention.

The American certainly might be looking for replacements (e.g., for Memphis) within that time frame if they're raided by the Big 12 again.

In that event, WKU and MTSU might end up in the AAC. The fact that they "sandwich" Nashville would be a plus, and the AAC would like to keep a team in that region after Memphis departs.

I grew up in MAC/Big Ten country and don't understand why the MAC doesn't seem to realize that their best option might be to add North and South Dakota State (FB-only) and two basketball schools such as N. Kentucky and Cleveland State.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2022 08:04 PM by Milwaukee.)
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Post: #52
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 08:02 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 06:32 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 03:45 PM)topper1296 Wrote:  I think WKU to the MAC is still alive. How high is the probability of it happening...let's wait 2-3 year and then reassess.

Especially since it's more likely than not the American and Sun Belt are back-filling again in that time frame you mention.

The American certainly might be looking for replacements (e.g., for Memphis) within that time frame if they're raided by the Big 12 again.

In that event, WKU and MTSU might end up in the AAC. The fact that they "sandwich" Nashville would be a plus, and the AAC would like to keep a team in that region after Memphis departs.

I grew up in MAC/Big Ten country and don't understand why the MAC doesn't seem to realize that their best option might be to add North and South Dakota State (FB-only) and two basketball schools such as N. Kentucky and Cleveland State.

Just stop… The MAC doesn’t need another Ohio school in the mix.
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Post: #53
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 07:56 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 07:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 06:28 PM)b2b Wrote:  I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Which is why you need the package of the two of them because they sandwich Nashville as opposed to being in Nashville. It’s also partly why I don’t see MTSU ever getting in the AAC over an Old Dominion or Georgia St — MTSU is too suburban on the urban-suburban spectrum.


IWokeUp is always a voice of reason and accuracy. And this is another spot-on assessment.

The MTSU/WKU/Nashville dynamic is noteworthy in the G5 conference realignment narrative. I attended MTSU and have visited the WKU campus multiple times. I strongly recall the rivalry in the 1980s, when both schools were in the OVC. In addition, I live in downtown Nashville and am a Vanderbilt man. As such, I have seen first-hand the many moving parts to the rivalry between the two schools, how they "interact" with the Nashville media/college sports fan base, how they work better for any league combined rather than solo, etc. In fact, I'm not sure there are many parallels (if any) on the G5 level — and not many on the P level, for that matter.

C-USA is fortunate to still have both schools. And the MAC would benefit from having both join.

I can only think of two examples, maybe three in P5 realm, one in the G5 realm. UNC/Duke/NC State in Raleigh-Durham. Those three really have a special dynamic together, although more often than not, NC State feels like the red-headed step child. UCLA/USC is another, and one could make the argument for Oregon/Oregon State, although I really don't know if those two share a metro or not. If they do share one, it would be Eugene, Oregon interestingly enough. My G5 example is UTEP/New Mexico State because, IMO, they share the greater El Paso area. Not sure if University of Houston/Rice University qualifies.
Almost forgot: TCU/SMU in DFW with UNT also making some inroads.
05-14-2022 01:18 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #54
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-14-2022 01:18 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 07:56 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 07:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 06:28 PM)b2b Wrote:  I feel like people don't understand that MTSU isn't really that close to Nashville. It's about 45 mins away from there. WKU is about an hour. Not much difference really but yeah... The package deal to the MAC makes a lot of sense.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Which is why you need the package of the two of them because they sandwich Nashville as opposed to being in Nashville. It’s also partly why I don’t see MTSU ever getting in the AAC over an Old Dominion or Georgia St — MTSU is too suburban on the urban-suburban spectrum.


IWokeUp is always a voice of reason and accuracy. And this is another spot-on assessment.

The MTSU/WKU/Nashville dynamic is noteworthy in the G5 conference realignment narrative. I attended MTSU and have visited the WKU campus multiple times. I strongly recall the rivalry in the 1980s, when both schools were in the OVC. In addition, I live in downtown Nashville and am a Vanderbilt man. As such, I have seen first-hand the many moving parts to the rivalry between the two schools, how they "interact" with the Nashville media/college sports fan base, how they work better for any league combined rather than solo, etc. In fact, I'm not sure there are many parallels (if any) on the G5 level — and not many on the P level, for that matter.

C-USA is fortunate to still have both schools. And the MAC would benefit from having both join.

I can only think of two examples, maybe three in P5 realm, one in the G5 realm. UNC/Duke/NC State in Raleigh-Durham. Those three really have a special dynamic together, although more often than not, NC State feels like the red-headed step child. UCLA/USC is another, and one could make the argument for Oregon/Oregon State, although I really don't know if those two share a metro or not. If they do share one, it would be Eugene, Oregon interestingly enough. My G5 example is UTEP/New Mexico State because, IMO, they share the greater El Paso area. Not sure if University of Houston/Rice University qualifies.
Almost forgot: TCU/SMU in DFW with UNT also making some inroads.

Those are all interesting examples — and I agree, Dawg, to an extent.

However, I failed to make clear that the "MTSU/WKU/Nashville dynamic" is noteworthy in the G5 conference realignment narrative for this reason: That dynamic involves a prominent city (in this case, Nashville) in which is located a P5 league member (in this case, Vanderbilt) that is NOT a state university with a large statewide fan base.

I struggle to think of any other examples. Maybe FIU and FAU vis-a-vis the city of Miami and the private University of Miami?
05-14-2022 10:25 AM
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Post: #55
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 08:45 PM)utpotts Wrote:  Just stop… The MAC doesn’t need another Ohio school in the mix.
Amen. If they want to add a basketball school, they should be looking Chicagoland or a different part of Indiana than Ball State. And it can't be just a "market" add, either.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2022 02:44 PM by BruceMcF.)
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Post: #56
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-14-2022 02:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 08:45 PM)utpotts Wrote:  Just stop… The MAC doesn’t need another Ohio school in the mix.
Amen. If they want to add a basketball school, they should be looking Chicagoland or a different part of Indiana than Ball State. And it can't be just a "market" add, either.

I've suggested plenty of times that Illinois St with WKU might be good but every NIU fan hates the idea of sharing the MAC with ISU.
05-14-2022 03:41 PM
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Post: #57
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-14-2022 03:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-14-2022 02:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 08:45 PM)utpotts Wrote:  … The MAC doesn’t need another Ohio school in the mix.
Amen. If they want to add a basketball school, they should be looking Chicagoland or a different part of Indiana than Ball State. And it can't be just a "market" add, either.

I've suggested plenty of times that Illinois St with WKU might be good but every NIU fan hates the idea of sharing the MAC with ISU.

Illinois St. is a MVC team, and there are a slew of MVC teams that would be good basketball additions if the MAC were to add N. Dak. St. as a FB member, such as:

N. Iowa, Drake (IA), Bradley (IL), Valparaiso (IN), So. Illinois, and Indiana State.


Most MVC teams might prefer to stay put, since it tends to be a more highly esteemed basketball conference, but those nearest to the center of the MAC footprint
(Valpo, Bradley, Ill. St., Indiana St.) might consider the MAC if the revenue stream would be greater with lower travel costs.

Alternately, NKU (avg. 23 wins over the past 5 full seasons) would be an equally good basketball member, and a great travel partner for WKU and Miami (OH).

The MAC might also consider the idea of tapping into the metropolitan Detroit area viewership (#14 - population 4.4 million / #10 - 5.7 million including adjacent metro. Windsor, Ontario) by adding a school such as Detroit-Mercy or Oakland University.

.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2022 06:19 PM by Milwaukee.)
05-14-2022 06:14 PM
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utpotts Offline
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Post: #58
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-14-2022 06:14 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:  
(05-14-2022 03:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-14-2022 02:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 08:45 PM)utpotts Wrote:  … The MAC doesn’t need another Ohio school in the mix.
Amen. If they want to add a basketball school, they should be looking Chicagoland or a different part of Indiana than Ball State. And it can't be just a "market" add, either.

I've suggested plenty of times that Illinois St with WKU might be good but every NIU fan hates the idea of sharing the MAC with ISU.

Illinois St. is a MVC team, and there are a slew of MVC teams that would be good basketball additions if the MAC were to add N. Dak. St. as a FB member, such as:

N. Iowa, Drake (IA), Bradley (IL), Valparaiso (IN), So. Illinois, and Indiana State.


Most MVC teams might prefer to stay put, since it tends to be a more highly esteemed basketball conference, but those nearest to the center of the MAC footprint
(Valpo, Bradley, Ill. St., Indiana St.) might consider the MAC if the revenue stream would be greater with lower travel costs.

Alternately, NKU (avg. 23 wins over the past 5 full seasons) would be an equally good basketball member, and a great travel partner for WKU and Miami (OH).

The MAC might also consider the idea of tapping into the metropolitan Detroit area viewership (#14 - population 4.4 million / #10 - 5.7 million including adjacent metro. Windsor, Ontario) by adding a school such as Detroit-Mercy or Oakland University.

.

Read a map…. And let me know where Eastern Michigan is. You will find your answer, to two schools that have zero fan base any where in Michigan.
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Post: #59
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-14-2022 06:14 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:  ... The MAC might also consider the idea of tapping into the metropolitan Detroit area viewership (#14 - population 4.4 million / #10 - 5.7 million including adjacent metro. Windsor, Ontario) by adding a school such as Detroit-Mercy or Oakland University.

Responding to "not another Ohio school!" with, in effect, "oh, I have a great alternative, a school in eastern Michigan!" suggests not really grasping the original objection.

Also, it bears keeping in mind that any proposed Olympic-sports adds need to stand on their own merits ... since adding a pair of FB-only schools doesn't necessitate a pair of Olympic-sports schools. And conversely, if there is a pair of Olympic sports schools which are justifiable adds, there is no need to look for any FB-only adds for balance.
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Post: #60
RE: WKU and MTSU to the MAC Still Alive?
(05-13-2022 05:45 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:  
(05-13-2022 03:55 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(05-10-2022 05:47 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-09-2022 09:16 PM)inutech Wrote:  I doubt the only thing preventing the MAC from taking WKU only was the fear of uneven divisions.

After the experience of uneven divisions with Temple (which UMass was supposed to fix until the old Big East found themselves in a position where they wanted Temple back) & uneven divisions with UMass, it was likely sufficient.

I am a little skeptical about the MAC taking the "opportunity" to play with 13 in a divisionless set-up, but I would not be surprised if going divisionless allows the "right" two adds to be made, without having to worry about whether the pair works to move Toledo and Bowling Green into the same division.

I don't think WKU is appealing enough to carry "whatever 14th school is available" in its wake, though ... it seems like it would have to be like the WKU/MTSU add, two schools which each justify their own add.

Yes - I think that's the main point that needs to be emphasized.

The MAC didn't want simply WKU or WKU plus a random 14th school.

They wanted the WKU/MTSU combo *specifically*. WKU brought the better fan base and on-the-field/court history while MTSU brought the entry into the major fast-growing market of Nashville. WKU propped up where MTSU was weak (actual athletic performance) and MTSU propped up where WKU was weak (demographics and market). Add on the geographic proximity to each other and fact that they're natural rivals would have unlocked more value (at least in the eyes of the MAC) than either one of those schools alone or being paired with a school where there isn't any synergy (e.g. UMass or some other C-USA school).

The leadership of the MAC and CUSA has been remarkably unimaginative. They could be in much better shape than they're in with strategic leadership.

Given the fact that ESPN gave the MAC (literally) a golden opportunity to expand, it seems odd that they gave up on the idea when MTSU turned them down, considering the fact that there was a solid option available to them.

In addition to WKU, they probably could have added North Dakota State as a FB-only member. NDSU is located 1 mile from the Minnesota border, making them a midwestern university. Moreover, NDSU's airport is only 3 miles from their campus.

North Dakota State has such a large national following that they would most likely be the highest-viewership team in the conference.

If they were to join the MAC, NDSU would prefer to keep their other sports in their current conference, since this would minimize their travel costs.

There are plenty of universities with good basketball programs near the center of the MAC's footprint, such as Northern Kentucky, which would probably jump at the chance to earn more broadcasting revenue and cut their travel costs.

MAC East: Buffalo, Akron, Kent St., Ohio, Toledo, EMU, BGSU

MAC West: NIU, WKU, NDSU/NKU, Ball St., Miami (OH), CMU, WMU

The addition of WKU and NDSU/NKU would make the MAC a stronger MBB conference and a much more competitive football conference with much greater viewership potential.

.

Under current NCAA rules NDSU couldn’t play FBS football in the MAC and put their other sports in another conference if the MAC sponsored that sport. They would have to play any sport sponsored by the MAC in the MAC. There’s not a such thing as a football only conference. This is not the same scenario where NMSU and Idaho were football only members in the Sun Belt. They could play football only in the Sun Belt because their conference didn’t sponsor FBS football.
05-14-2022 08:56 PM
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