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Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-18-2022 12:07 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  But who's to say that Vanderbilt wouldn't gain new fans just because Vanderbilt football is on TV? Who deemed Vanderbilt football to be unworthy of attention? Who is the judge, jury and executioner here? If that was the logic, then teams like the New York Knicks or Chicago Cubs should've been shut down long ago.

There is a way for non-big-name teams like Vanderbilt to get more TV time: Win more games and get ranked. Look at who, in addition to the big names, gets more games on ESPN and the OTA channels. It's the teams that are ranked, and later in the season the teams with a chance at a division or conference title.

Pro sports are pretty much the same. Each league has a few "name" teams that will draw casual viewers even if they don't win, and for everyone else, the best TV exposure goes to the teams that win the most.
04-18-2022 12:50 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-18-2022 12:07 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  
(04-17-2022 11:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-17-2022 10:21 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  
(04-16-2022 02:22 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  The question in my mind is not whether ESPN needs the B1G or not, but the reverse. I'm not convinced the B1G, even if it does get $1 Billion a year over its contract, is willing to stay with ESPN. This exclusion will not go over well with fans or recruits.

That the 4-letter College Sports World Order narrative working on you. The irony of being blackpilled is that the most negative attitude helps create the very thing one says is most afraid of happening. Being redpilled is a much better assumption. Knowing that ESPN hates the Big Ten should help you understand what is needed to best go forward.

Monetizing on the share of BTN would be a good bet, since Fox Corporation is now grossly undercapitalized. Fox was a good partner when the College Sports World Order tried to lowball the Big Ten. But now Fox can no longer front the cash needed to stay ahead but is somehow hanging on the BTN share as a leverage play. Comcast, Discovery, as well as Apple or Amazon have much greater market cap. To me, the play should be selling BTN to Comcast, which would also buy up the Pac Networks. Comcast has both linear and digital options to play with, so there wouldn't be a difficult transition from one to the other.

But the last thing the Big Ten should do is stay at a corporation that wants them dead. We are much better than that.


(04-16-2022 02:47 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-16-2022 02:22 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  The question in my mind is not whether ESPN needs the B1G or not, but the reverse. I'm not convinced the B1G, even if it does get $1 Billion a year over its contract, is willing to stay with ESPN. This exclusion will not go over well with fans or recruits.

I disagree. I think the only way that there isn’t *some* Big Ten content in ESPN is if Disney truly and utterly presents a terrible offer.

Kevin Warren just attended an upfront presentation with ESPN last week. There’s no personal animosity whatsoever. It’s all in fans’ heads about the emotional part of it (e.g. SEC bias at ESPN). If the Big Ten gets the right exposure and money from ESPN, then they’ll sign with them. They’re not turning down ESPN with all things being relatively equal, much less if ESPN presents an even better offer. I said the same thing a few years ago when the Big Ten was negotiating their current deals and lots of people were trying to say the same thing about the league leaving ESPN entirely. Cooler heads prevailed all around: both sides ultimately need each other (or at least stronger with each other).

Kevin Warren isn't dumb enough to flip the bird at a current rights holder when he doesn't know who would make the best offer. Still, I despise that network and everything they stand for. Maybe you're satisfied when Illinois makes an occasional appearance at the 4-letter network during football season. I'm not. When they talk football they don't talk Illinois. When they talk basketball they don't talk Nebraska. Yet, they make no distinction when it comes to the SEC and ACC teams.

I'm not the one that first made it personal. The corporation did. I'm simply the messenger who is relaying that fact, to too many deaf ears, it seems.

Everyone knows that I’m a Big Ten partisan.

However, I’ll say this: Big Ten fans as a whole whine waaaaay too much about supposed ESPN bias.

No, ESPN doesn’t talk about Illinois football much… but that’s because we’ve generally been terrible. Have you really heard much ESPN talk about Vanderbilt or Mississippi State more compared to the dregs of the Big Ten? You think anyone other than Clemson gets ESPN coverage in the ACC? Sure, ESPN talks a lot about the top of the SEC like Alabama and Georgia, but it’s difficult for me to blame them based on the results on-the-field. They certainly talk plenty about the top Big Ten brands like Ohio State and Michigan, as well. Note that their two primary (and highest paid) College GameDay commentators are Ohio State and Michigan alums, respectively.

Bottom line: too many Big Ten fans are getting completely myopic about ESPN at this point that they’re not seeing the forest for the trees. We can’t be insular when ESPN (and more importantly, the Walt Disney Company) is still the single most important entity for the Average Joe T-shirt Sports Fan that gives the Big Ten such outsized value in the first place.

We ALL think ESPN is biased against our favorite teams just like we ALL think referees are biased against our favorite teams. For every fan that thinks that ESPN is biased toward the Yankees/Cowboys/Lakers/Alabama/Duke, there’s a Yankees/Cowboys/Lakers/Alabama/Duke fan that thinks ESPN is constantly biased against them as heels on all of their blabbering talk shows.

Simply put, if we want more favorable subjective coverage, then we need to win freaking more games and championships. I actually have little sympathy for the argument that media coverage is biased when it is really just covering the winners the most. That’s actually how it’s supposed to be.

Once again, I’m not saying that the Big Ten should take a bad offer from ESPN just to stay with them. However, it’s also insane to me to suggest that the Big Ten should actively *avoid* ESPN.
Not even the NFL, who TRULY had personal animosity with ESPN for several years to the point where their respective top executives weren’t talking to each other, would end up divorcing from ESPN (and the NFL has the ultimate ability of anyone to waive off the power of Disney in all of sports and entertainment).

The New York Knicks is a great counter point to your argument. They have not won anything of note since the early 1970s. I was only a baby the last time the Knicks won an actual championship. Yet, they get national coverage. The Domers haven't won a championship since 1988. Yet, they're on NBC. Then there is the famous Chicago Cubs 100+ years of futility and the Cleveland...uh...Guardians now.

It is the classic chicken-or-egg conundrum. Is my team not on TV because they suck or do they suck because they're not on TV? If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to see it, did it make a sound?

There are teams all over the country scrapping to get a little attention and, yet, don't get nearly the attention of the Knicks or Notre Dame.

Mindshare.

Mindshare is what convinces the casual fan to check out a game. Mindshare doesn't appear out of thin air; it's the outcome of carefully-crafted narratives pushed by corporate image-makers, influential fans, yes, even message board users.

The Big Ten Network has done more for the Big Ten than CBS, NBC, Fox, and, certainly, ESPN, combined. Why? Because they give all the teams, not just the big names, the opportunity to convince fans that they should be checked out. Don't like one Big Ten team? Check out another Big Ten team? Or maybe you'll stick with the big names. But you'll never know if you want to follow a team until you check 'em out.

Umm, unless you're already a college sports fan (and, if you're watching BTN, probably a fan of a Big Ten school), why are you watching BTN in the first place?
04-18-2022 01:34 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-16-2022 02:22 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  The question in my mind is not whether ESPN needs the B1G or not, but the reverse. I'm not convinced the B1G, even if it does get $1 Billion a year over its contract, is willing to stay with ESPN. This exclusion will not go over well with fans or recruits.

ESPN does a great job of promoting schools and if you are not on their network, they are not promoting you. When you see that Michigan only had 1 of their 22 football recruits in the 2022 class from the state of Michigan, it may be a risk if they move away entirely from ESPN. Ohio State football gets a high percentage of their stars from Florida, Georgia, Texas, California, and other parts of the country. Do they want to risk being off of ESPN?
04-18-2022 04:24 PM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.
04-19-2022 02:33 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
Great article today about all of this:

https://awfulannouncing.com/ncaa/with-fo...itors.html

Money quote, "As I write this, I’m talking myself into thinking that Fox+ESPN+either Amazon or Apple as the rights holders combination is probably on equal footing as the most likely scenario with just Fox+ESPN." I think Fox/ESPN/Amazon feels most likely. ESPN takes a few less games and one of the big online platforms Apple (who is about to get NFL Sunday ticket or Amazon) get some bespoke package of games on friday nights or something and voila. B1G gets paid and it leaves Pac 12 and or BIG 12 in position to partner with CBS/NBC.
04-19-2022 05:22 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
I suspect there’s easy money lost simply chasing one of the newer flashy outlets and leaving the old-school NBC/CBS options behind. Like, easy national broadcast money (and exposure). The issue, I suspect, is that those two don’t want the rest of the conference’s sports. Nobody really does (maybe beyond ice hockey, lacrosse, and women’s hoops), but the B1G knows it can leverage football and basketball content with the broadcasters to find a home for the rest of the inventory.
04-19-2022 05:28 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

On the exposure piece, I think a lot of people are forgetting just how huge the ABC Saturday Night Football slot is week-to-week. It’s not just about who is in the 3:30 pm ET slot. (By the way, the SEC Game of the Week deal provides time slot flexibility to ABC. They don’t *have* to put the SEC game at 3:30 pm ET - they can move it to prime time instead. That’s a change from CBS, who had to specifically negotiate any prime time games.)

As I’ve noted, ESPN is in it to make money - they’re not burying Penn State-Michigan or Ohio State-Penn State with lower viewership channels when they know those are ratings draws. OSU-PSU has been an ABC prime time game for most (if not all) of the past several years. They even put on PSU-Indiana on ABC prime time last year. I think a lot of Big Ten fans are getting a bit of amnesia about just how much ABC/ESPN has provided the league with regular super high profile time slots.

To me, exposure is the whole package. It’s a totally different type of exposure when all facets of the Walt Disney Company is promoting the upcoming game of the week. Sure, people will tune into Michigan-Ohio State on any network, but the typical neutral fan is still instinctively going to turn on ABC/ESPN for college football first. It’s counterintuitive to me when a lot of Big Ten fans say that they want exposure on the one hand, yet ESPN is inherently always in the best position to provide the most exposure out of anyone.

Once again, that doesn’t mean that the Big Ten should take a bad deal with ESPN, but if ESPN’s offer is in line with the other networks, they’re simply the best spot. Don’t look at it as ESPN having dedicated slots to the SEC, but rather the Big Ten is in pole position to hoover up the ESPN slots that were previously provided to the Pac-12 and Big 12. The Big Ten can certainly have at least one national game on ABC every week - that’s totally available to them.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2022 06:31 PM by Frank the Tank.)
04-19-2022 06:25 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week?

They very likely will. A while ago I went through the 2019 schedules, and 11 of the 14 Big Noon games were Big Ten games. The other 3 all featured Oklahoma.

Quote:Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games?

9 a.m. start, Pacific time? No.

Quote:When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)?

Not really.

Quote:Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

I think ESPN gets *something*. ESPN will want to have Big Ten in their portfolio, and Big Ten will want to have a presence on ESPN. But it could be two games a week, with ESPN getting 3rd or 4th pick.
04-19-2022 07:07 PM
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Transic_nyc Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
If I'm the Big Ten I would want CBS as part of the mix, Comcast to buy BTN and maybe the 4-letter to have part of the Olympic sports. Fox getting all of Tier 1 is way too conservative and hamper the conference unnecessarily. Big Noon would be a great platform for the likes of Iowa, Michigan State, Wisconsin and probably even a Big Ten that gets good to be flexed in during the latter part of the season. However, the likes of Ohio State, Michigan and whoever is in position to win the conference at the latter end of the season should go to the 2:30 p.m. ET timeslot. The only Big Noon slot that makes sense for Ohio State is the Big Game and OOC against the likes of USC, Oregon or Washington. BTW, this is how the 4-letter does it with the SEC: they don't put the marquee names on the early afternoon timeslot but use it as a means to promote that conference all day long. It's that narrative construction that I've been trying to tell people about.

The real issue I have with BTN is that Fox Corporation is undercapitalized for the need to transition to a more contemporary distribution system. Do any of the FAANG platforms want a distribution deal with BTN without an ownership stake?

Finally, the idea that the 4-letter needs the Big Ten now is a bold-faced lie. Not after showing who they really favor. There is only one conference that the 4-letter really like and it's not the Big Ten. The folks who still peddle the 4-letter line are a) trying to justify continuing to pay for Disney+ b) are like the Hollywood starlets who would do anything, including the liberal use of the casting couch, for a co-starring role c) don't like the Big Ten or d) all of the above.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2022 08:06 PM by Transic_nyc.)
04-19-2022 08:03 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-19-2022 08:03 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  If I'm the Big Ten I would want CBS as part of the mix, Comcast to buy BTN and maybe the 4-letter to have part of the Olympic sports. Fox getting all of Tier 1 is way too conservative and hamper the conference unnecessarily. Big Noon would be a great platform for the likes of Iowa, Michigan State, Wisconsin and probably even a Big Ten that gets good to be flexed in during the latter part of the season. However, the likes of Ohio State, Michigan and whoever is in position to win the conference at the latter end of the season should go to the 2:30 p.m. ET timeslot. The only Big Noon slot that makes sense for Ohio State is the Big Game and OOC against the likes of USC, Oregon or Washington. BTW, this is how the 4-letter does it with the SEC: they don't put the marquee names on the early afternoon timeslot but use it as a means to promote that conference all day long. It's that narrative construction that I've been trying to tell people about.

The real issue I have with BTN is that Fox Corporation is undercapitalized for the need to transition to a more contemporary distribution system. Do any of the FAANG platforms want a distribution deal with BTN without an ownership stake?

Finally, the idea that the 4-letter needs the Big Ten now is a bold-faced lie.

Need maybe overstates the case. But right now, ESPN has a finger in every major college football pie. Having zero Big Ten games in their lineup would be awkward, just as having NO relationship between the Big Ten and ESPN would be awkward for the Big 10.

Not having one of the two big-dog conferences on ESPN is a different deal than not having the PAC or the new Big 12. So I expect 10-20 Big Ten games on ESPN/ABC. ESPN will pay a reasonable price, the B1G will offer up a reasonable selection of games.
04-20-2022 06:11 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2022 06:31 AM by quo vadis.)
04-20-2022 06:31 AM
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 06:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.

Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.
04-20-2022 06:40 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 06:40 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.

Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.

I agree that there is still a pecking-order to where your games are broadcast, with OTA being at the top, ESPN being next, and then outlets like ESPN2, FS1, CBSSN being on the next tier, with streaming being last. But I also think those distinctions are blurring. At my house, they mean nothing at all - I can find a game on ESPN+ as easily as I can on ESPN or ABC or NBC or Big FOX.

That said, sure, if you can get more games on OTA, like from FS1 to OTA, then take them.

But I just don't think the B1G should, or will have to, bargain for that, "trade money for exposure" as the saying went in AAC circles.

IMO, the B1G product has a natural wide appeal, so they shouldn't have trouble getting a lot of good OTA spots for their football. And I would not trade money for that.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2022 07:08 AM by quo vadis.)
04-20-2022 07:07 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 07:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:40 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.

Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.

I agree that there is still a pecking-order to where your games are broadcast, with OTA being at the top, ESPN being next, and then outlets like ESPN2, FS1, CBSSN being on the next tier, with streaming being last. But I also think those distinctions are blurring. At my house, they mean nothing at all - I can find a game on ESPN+ as easily as I can on ESPN or ABC or NBC or Big FOX.

That said, sure, if you can get more games on OTA, like from FS1 to OTA, then take them.

But I just don't think the B1G should, or will have to, bargain for that, "trade money for exposure" as the saying went in AAC circles.

IMO, the B1G product has a natural wide appeal, so they shouldn't have trouble getting a lot of good OTA spots for their football. And I would not trade money for that.

Channel placement matters more for the downstream games. It's clear that the casual fan will find the biggest games like Michigan-Ohio State regardless of channel. However, I do think there's a wide exposure difference for the middle-to-lower tier conference games depending on the channel. That's where I think ESPN has a significant advantage that a lot of Big Ten fans seem to be glossing over or underrating: getting a game on ESPN is effectively just as good as getting a game on OTA ratings-wise, so the combination of ABC and ESPN is an exposure platform something that the other media providers don't have. There's a massive gap going down to FS1 or a streaming service. Now, I agree that the Big Ten isn't going to take a poor ESPN offer simply because of that exposure, but if things are relatively equal between offers, it's still a factor.

Once again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the casual fan (who might flip through a couple of channels and then stop flipping) versus a Big Ten fan like myself that will actively seek a particular Big Ten game. The casual fan draw is really what gives the SEC and Big Ten an advantage over all of the other leagues, but there's a symbiotic relationship between having that draw combined with having the broadest platform (just like the NFL).
04-20-2022 09:39 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 06:11 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-19-2022 08:03 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  If I'm the Big Ten I would want CBS as part of the mix, Comcast to buy BTN and maybe the 4-letter to have part of the Olympic sports. Fox getting all of Tier 1 is way too conservative and hamper the conference unnecessarily. Big Noon would be a great platform for the likes of Iowa, Michigan State, Wisconsin and probably even a Big Ten that gets good to be flexed in during the latter part of the season. However, the likes of Ohio State, Michigan and whoever is in position to win the conference at the latter end of the season should go to the 2:30 p.m. ET timeslot. The only Big Noon slot that makes sense for Ohio State is the Big Game and OOC against the likes of USC, Oregon or Washington. BTW, this is how the 4-letter does it with the SEC: they don't put the marquee names on the early afternoon timeslot but use it as a means to promote that conference all day long. It's that narrative construction that I've been trying to tell people about.

The real issue I have with BTN is that Fox Corporation is undercapitalized for the need to transition to a more contemporary distribution system. Do any of the FAANG platforms want a distribution deal with BTN without an ownership stake?

Finally, the idea that the 4-letter needs the Big Ten now is a bold-faced lie.

Need maybe overstates the case. But right now, ESPN has a finger in every major college football pie. Having zero Big Ten games in their lineup would be awkward, just as having NO relationship between the Big Ten and ESPN would be awkward for the Big 10.

Not having one of the two big-dog conferences on ESPN is a different deal than not having the PAC or the new Big 12. So I expect 10-20 Big Ten games on ESPN/ABC. ESPN will pay a reasonable price, the B1G will offer up a reasonable selection of games.

I agree - I think a lot of people underestimating about how much ESPN wants to keep the Big Ten. "Need" is a strong word - neither the Big Ten nor ESPN absolutely "need" each other, but they're very likely stronger with each other than separated.

The view that ESPN simply only favors the SEC is myopic if only because ESPN understands that letting the Big Ten go entirely to competitors will undercut ESPN's business. It appears that it's a foregone conclusion that Big Ten games will continue to be on Fox, but it doesn't serve ESPN's interests at all to allow NBC and/or CBS to get a marquee Big Ten game each week to compete against ABC/ESPN's games on top of it.
04-20-2022 09:48 AM
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Post: #76
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 07:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:40 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2022 02:33 PM)schmolik Wrote:  In these negotiations, if I'm the Big Ten, I'm looking for exposure as much as I am money. The SEC is guaranteed a weekly 3:30pm game on CBS now and will be when they move to ABC as well. Notre Dame currently gets all but one of their home games on NBC. I'm asking FOX, CBS, NBC, and ABC what can you give me in addition to money? FOX, why can't the Big Ten have Big Noon Saturday every week? Does the Pac 12 want any Big Noon games? When Oklahoma and Texas leave, are any Big 12 games worth it (and 3/4 of their conference won't want an 11am or even 10am kickoff anyway)? Should we take a deal with ESPN for them to shove Penn State-Michigan or even Ohio State-Penn State onto ESPN? Certainly money is important but eyeballs are important too. If CBS or NBC gives us more guaranteed over the air coverage than ABC is, we have to take it into account.

IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.

Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.

I agree that there is still a pecking-order to where your games are broadcast, with OTA being at the top, ESPN being next, and then outlets like ESPN2, FS1, CBSSN being on the next tier, with streaming being last. But I also think those distinctions are blurring. At my house, they mean nothing at all - I can find a game on ESPN+ as easily as I can on ESPN or ABC or NBC or Big FOX.

That said, sure, if you can get more games on OTA, like from FS1 to OTA, then take them.

But I just don't think the B1G should, or will have to, bargain for that, "trade money for exposure" as the saying went in AAC circles.

IMO, the B1G product has a natural wide appeal, so they shouldn't have trouble getting a lot of good OTA spots for their football. And I would not trade money for that.

Channel placement matters more for the downstream games. It's clear that the casual fan will find the biggest games like Michigan-Ohio State regardless of channel. However, I do think there's a wide exposure difference for the middle-to-lower tier conference games depending on the channel. That's where I think ESPN has a significant advantage that a lot of Big Ten fans seem to be glossing over or underrating: getting a game on ESPN is effectively just as good as getting a game on OTA ratings-wise, so the combination of ABC and ESPN is an exposure platform something that the other media providers don't have. There's a massive gap going down to FS1 or a streaming service. Now, I agree that the Big Ten isn't going to take a poor ESPN offer simply because of that exposure, but if things are relatively equal between offers, it's still a factor.

Once again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the casual fan (who might flip through a couple of channels and then stop flipping) versus a Big Ten fan like myself that will actively seek a particular Big Ten game. The casual fan draw is really what gives the SEC and Big Ten an advantage over all of the other leagues, but there's a symbiotic relationship between having that draw combined with having the broadest platform (just like the NFL).

ESPN is not "as good" as OTA, but it is close. Its still below the network games.
ESPN2 and FS1 are a good step below. Then the rest, FS2, ESPNNews, CBSSN, are all pretty low.
04-20-2022 10:20 AM
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Post: #77
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 10:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 07:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:40 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  IMO, exposure for the B1G comes naturally, it's not something they have to lobby for. The only conferences that have to worry about exposure are ones that are not naturally appealing.

Especially with TX and OU moving to the SEC, they have no competition from the Big 12 for the FOX "Big Noon" spot. So the B1G is assured of getting plenty of prime-time afternoon games on major networks.

So to me, $$$ is the whole ball game for the B1G.

Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.

I agree that there is still a pecking-order to where your games are broadcast, with OTA being at the top, ESPN being next, and then outlets like ESPN2, FS1, CBSSN being on the next tier, with streaming being last. But I also think those distinctions are blurring. At my house, they mean nothing at all - I can find a game on ESPN+ as easily as I can on ESPN or ABC or NBC or Big FOX.

That said, sure, if you can get more games on OTA, like from FS1 to OTA, then take them.

But I just don't think the B1G should, or will have to, bargain for that, "trade money for exposure" as the saying went in AAC circles.

IMO, the B1G product has a natural wide appeal, so they shouldn't have trouble getting a lot of good OTA spots for their football. And I would not trade money for that.

Channel placement matters more for the downstream games. It's clear that the casual fan will find the biggest games like Michigan-Ohio State regardless of channel. However, I do think there's a wide exposure difference for the middle-to-lower tier conference games depending on the channel. That's where I think ESPN has a significant advantage that a lot of Big Ten fans seem to be glossing over or underrating: getting a game on ESPN is effectively just as good as getting a game on OTA ratings-wise, so the combination of ABC and ESPN is an exposure platform something that the other media providers don't have. There's a massive gap going down to FS1 or a streaming service. Now, I agree that the Big Ten isn't going to take a poor ESPN offer simply because of that exposure, but if things are relatively equal between offers, it's still a factor.

Once again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the casual fan (who might flip through a couple of channels and then stop flipping) versus a Big Ten fan like myself that will actively seek a particular Big Ten game. The casual fan draw is really what gives the SEC and Big Ten an advantage over all of the other leagues, but there's a symbiotic relationship between having that draw combined with having the broadest platform (just like the NFL).

ESPN is not "as good" as OTA, but it is close. Its still below the network games.
ESPN2 and FS1 are a good step below. Then the rest, FS2, ESPNNews, CBSSN, are all pretty low.

This was part of my point. B1G isn't going to want OTA/ESPN quality games on FS1 (even as more OTA games has degraded the value of "OTA quality game" from 10 years ago), and I don't think Fox is going to want to pay OTA/ESPN type money to dump games on FS1.

(There is another BTN factor in play--the contracts that place BTN on basic cable, collecting subscriber revenue from all cable subscribers, also have content-minimums that BTN has to meet, very very likely naming minimum numbers of football and basketball games that BTN has to show. And probably show exclusively--it's a negotiation with the local providers to stream those games, because that further encourages cord-cutting.)
04-20-2022 11:01 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 11:01 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 10:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 09:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 07:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-20-2022 06:40 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Ehh, if they can move Big Ten games from FS1 to NBC or CBS, I think that's a win for the Big Ten. And I'm not sure Fox really wants to throw more money down the FS1 rathole, so I expect they can move 10 games from FS1 to OTA.

I agree that there is still a pecking-order to where your games are broadcast, with OTA being at the top, ESPN being next, and then outlets like ESPN2, FS1, CBSSN being on the next tier, with streaming being last. But I also think those distinctions are blurring. At my house, they mean nothing at all - I can find a game on ESPN+ as easily as I can on ESPN or ABC or NBC or Big FOX.

That said, sure, if you can get more games on OTA, like from FS1 to OTA, then take them.

But I just don't think the B1G should, or will have to, bargain for that, "trade money for exposure" as the saying went in AAC circles.

IMO, the B1G product has a natural wide appeal, so they shouldn't have trouble getting a lot of good OTA spots for their football. And I would not trade money for that.

Channel placement matters more for the downstream games. It's clear that the casual fan will find the biggest games like Michigan-Ohio State regardless of channel. However, I do think there's a wide exposure difference for the middle-to-lower tier conference games depending on the channel. That's where I think ESPN has a significant advantage that a lot of Big Ten fans seem to be glossing over or underrating: getting a game on ESPN is effectively just as good as getting a game on OTA ratings-wise, so the combination of ABC and ESPN is an exposure platform something that the other media providers don't have. There's a massive gap going down to FS1 or a streaming service. Now, I agree that the Big Ten isn't going to take a poor ESPN offer simply because of that exposure, but if things are relatively equal between offers, it's still a factor.

Once again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the casual fan (who might flip through a couple of channels and then stop flipping) versus a Big Ten fan like myself that will actively seek a particular Big Ten game. The casual fan draw is really what gives the SEC and Big Ten an advantage over all of the other leagues, but there's a symbiotic relationship between having that draw combined with having the broadest platform (just like the NFL).

ESPN is not "as good" as OTA, but it is close. Its still below the network games.
ESPN2 and FS1 are a good step below. Then the rest, FS2, ESPNNews, CBSSN, are all pretty low.

This was part of my point. B1G isn't going to want OTA/ESPN quality games on FS1 (even as more OTA games has degraded the value of "OTA quality game" from 10 years ago), and I don't think Fox is going to want to pay OTA/ESPN type money to dump games on FS1.

(There is another BTN factor in play--the contracts that place BTN on basic cable, collecting subscriber revenue from all cable subscribers, also have content-minimums that BTN has to meet, very very likely naming minimum numbers of football and basketball games that BTN has to show. And probably show exclusively--it's a negotiation with the local providers to stream those games, because that further encourages cord-cutting.)

One interesting thing to note is that if you look at this past year's college football TV ratings, the BTN viewership was actually often on par with or more than games on FS1 and ESPN2 (and even in several cases outrated ESPN games during the same week). That actually surprised me a bit and showed that the BTN isn't just a regional network. This is a leverage point for the Big Ten since it shows that BTN games aren't just Tier 2/Tier 3 leftover rights or niche streaming content. Essentially, the value of moving any content off of BTN isn't very great considering that (a) the Big Ten directly benefits from the BTN with its ownership interest and (b) it is showing to be a platform that is on the ESPN2/FS1-level as opposed to the ESPNU/FS2-level, which is pretty significant.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2022 11:15 AM by Frank the Tank.)
04-20-2022 11:14 AM
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Post: #79
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
(04-20-2022 10:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  ESPN is not "as good" as OTA, but it is close. Its still below the network games.
ESPN2 and FS1 are a good step below. Then the rest, FS2, ESPNNews, CBSSN, are all pretty low.

FS1 is a step below even ESPN2. Check the ratings for CFB games on Sports Media Watch. If you want a larger audience, you'd rather be on ESPN2.

If there were still CFB games on TBS/TNT, which may happen again in future contracts, their audience sizes for CFB would typically be between those of ESPN and ESPN2.
04-20-2022 12:07 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
Well, if FS1 is ESPN-lite, then it’s basically “The Deuce.”
04-20-2022 12:39 PM
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