(04-15-2022 11:22 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 10:21 AM)johnintx Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

My school is Oklahoma. To see OU Twitter these days is to see people complaining because they can't see a lot of the games on TV due to various TV contracts. There is a lot of demand, as Oklahoma is currently the #1 team in the nation. The Sooners are currently 37-0, with 30 wins by run rule. OU has five national championships since 2000. OU currently has a 1300 seat stadium, which is sold out for the season, including fall scrimmages. Ground has been broken for a new stadium that will seat 5000. The program will only be helped by the move to the SEC.

It helps OU that the Women's College World Series is played every year in OKC. Hall of Fame Stadium has been expanded to seat 13,000, and sells out for the CWS, especially when the local teams are there. It's like if Nebraska and/or Creighton were national powers in baseball with the CWS played in Omaha every year. National championships aren't guaranteed, but it helps when the championship is played in your backyard.

Softball has the potential to be like baseball: popular at some schools, even break-even at a couple. It's big in the SEC. And, as in baseball, the majority of the players are recruited from warm-weather locales: California, Arizona, or the South.

Most games on ESPN+ right?

A lot of them, yes. It's Tier 3 content. Away Big 12 games have been on ESPN+, home games on Bally Sports OK and Soonersports.tv. This weekend's series at Texas is on Longhorn Network. There were some non-conference tournaments streaming on Flosports PPV, one of which included a #1 vs #2 matchup between OU and UCLA.

The SEC, ACC, and Pac 12 have been able to get some games on the ESPN networks, especially with the delay of the start of MLB season.

Casual fans tend not to understand TV contracts. When their team is good, they just want to be able to watch their team, just as they would in football. They don't understand why they can't watch a #1 vs #2 matchup. They don't get that the market for softball isn't there yet.

(04-15-2022 10:33 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:51 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I don't foresee that happening but I suppose it's possible.

Perhaps college women's soccer or volleyball could be bigger than hoops.

Lots of folks love soccer and volleyball is fast-paced (with the games played relatively quickly in terms of time).

Volleyball is way bigger than basketball and soccer. In fact, volleyball is killing basketball. Nowadays, the best girl athletes play volleyball. In fact, basketball is third in terms of getting the athletes. I think you may still have more fan support for basketball at the college level, but it is getting close.

Proof? Go to a sports complex on the weekend. Most days you will have a girls volleyball tournament or a boys bball tournament. Girls bball tournaments are rare because you can't get enough teams to participate. So, you will only have maybe one in a geographic area each weekend, sometimes less, and there will be a limited number of teams participating. On the other hand, it is normal to have 500-1000 girls participating in a girls vball tournament with a number of tournaments in a geographic area every weekend, with larger regional and national tournaments also being held each weekend.

As a former girls coach, the demise of girls bball is kind of sad. If this continues, I wonder if the some schools may drop programs due to a lack of recruitable athletes. While the quality of bball at the highest level is very good, you can already see how the quality has dropped in the low major, D2 and D3 levels. But, even the high majors bball schools are losing out to vball on top tier athletes. A girl like Carter Booth would be one of the premier athletes in college basketball, but she plays vball instead (despite the fact her dad is GM of the Nuggets).

Interesting comment.

Women's soccer is unwatchable to me. Now I'm not a soccer fan overall, but the college women are just not good at ball handling. A lot of elementary boys when my son played rec league soccer were better.

Softball is more fun, but there are certainly a lot of Division I softball players who are not good athletes.

Issue with sports like track, swimming, gymnastics, etc is the regular season is kind of meaningless to the average viewer. They’ll never be big sports for TV revenue.

(04-15-2022 10:21 AM)johnintx Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

My school is Oklahoma. To see OU Twitter these days is to see people complaining because they can't see a lot of the games on TV due to various TV contracts. There is a lot of demand, as Oklahoma is currently the #1 team in the nation. The Sooners are currently 37-0, with 30 wins by run rule. OU has five national championships since 2000. OU currently has a 1300 seat stadium, which is sold out for the season, including fall scrimmages. Ground has been broken for a new stadium that will seat 5000. The program will only be helped by the move to the SEC.

It helps OU that the Women's College World Series is played every year in OKC. Hall of Fame Stadium has been expanded to seat 13,000, and sells out for the CWS, especially when the local teams are there. It's like if Nebraska and/or Creighton were national powers in baseball with the CWS played in Omaha every year. National championships aren't guaranteed, but it helps when the championship is played in your backyard.

Softball has the potential to be like baseball: popular at some schools, even break-even at a couple. It's big in the SEC. And, as in baseball, the majority of the players are recruited from warm-weather locales: California, Arizona, or the South.

Softball has gotten really popular around here for all ages when 20 years ago there were no organized teams.

I’d rather watch softball than women’s basketball

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

Yes.

At the high school level in Texas and Oklahoma softball has already overtaken women's basketball in popularity. And that increased interest is beginning to show up to the college level. ESPN is showing more softball games on TV now than they ever have. The softball college world series in OKC can't fit the crowds in for their tournament. And, ballparks at the serious programs are being expanded at a time when attendance for college sporting events is decreasing.

I know UNT is pumping millions into our softball program (new batting facility, new field, new video board, raise for our coach,....), and it is paying off. These investments have helped UNT build a talented young roster, and they are winning. UNT is set to build a new, larger grandstand after this season, and then begin work on a softball clubhouse adjacent to the field. I rarely miss a softball game on ESPN+ or C-USATV. And, like to travel to Denton for double headers of softball and men's basketball when the times line up.

(04-15-2022 10:33 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:51 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I don't foresee that happening but I suppose it's possible.

Perhaps college women's soccer or volleyball could be bigger than hoops.

Lots of folks love soccer and volleyball is fast-paced (with the games played relatively quickly in terms of time).

Volleyball is way bigger than basketball and soccer. In fact, volleyball is killing basketball. Nowadays, the best girl athletes play volleyball. In fact, basketball is third in terms of getting the athletes. I think you may still have more fan support for basketball at the college level, but it is getting close.

Proof? Go to a sports complex on the weekend. Most days you will have a girls volleyball tournament or a boys bball tournament. Girls bball tournaments are rare because you can't get enough teams to participate. So, you will only have maybe one in a geographic area each weekend, sometimes less, and there will be a limited number of teams participating. On the other hand, it is normal to have 500-1000 girls participating in a girls vball tournament with a number of tournaments in a geographic area every weekend, with larger regional and national tournaments also being held each weekend.

As a former girls coach, the demise of girls bball is kind of sad. If this continues, I wonder if the some schools may drop programs due to a lack of recruitable athletes. While the quality of bball at the highest level is very good, you can already see how the quality has dropped in the low major, D2 and D3 levels. But, even the high majors bball schools are losing out to vball on top tier athletes. A girl like Carter Booth would be one of the premier athletes in college basketball, but she plays vball instead (despite the fact her dad is GM of the Nuggets).

In terms of engagement of women playing the sport, I definitely think volleyball has the chance to emerge from a “grass roots” level. Obviously competitive and recreational sports have different levels of energy and commitment, but there seem to be a lot of girls and women who play volleyball socially. Whether that translates to the competitive side is left to be seen, but at least there’s a lot of people playing it.

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

Women's softball is gaining increasing popularity due to networks such as ESPN, SECN, ACCN, etc., providing televised coverage. There are also corporate, NCAA, and cultural interests, to enhance collegiate women's sports development and exposure.
Being an outdoors sport impacted by weather, the popularity of it will have a regional focus.
Women's basketball is solid in being at the top, generally, of women's college sports.

A sport such as collegiate equestrian, which is dominated by women riders, is also quite regional. It is prevalent in the SEC, at varying levels, among participating schools.

I feel like a lot of posters are projecting some regional biases onto the entire country.

The NCAA Women’s Basketball Tournament has just had its highest TV ratings since the early-2000s (which was a time when viewership for *everything* was higher on TV):

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/04...-carolina/

I don’t know if there has been any softball or volleyball player while in college (and not as a result of the Olympics or other competition) that has ever had the name recognition of Paige Bueckers now or a whole host of women’s basketball players (like Candace Parker) in prior years. The NIL compensation figures seem to be bearing this out where women’s basketball players are getting outsized amounts compared to all other women’s sports.

I don’t necessarily buy that the best women’s athletes are disproportionately choosing volleyball or other sports over basketball nationwide. Once again, that seems to be projecting regional interest and/or specific communities (e.g. urban vs. suburban vs. exurban vs. rural). The NIL point could very well provide different incentives to basketball compared to other sports simply because of its nature just as we have seen with how NBA players disproportionately get endorsements: they are highly visible without any helmets or masks, the best players are on-the-court more of the time and constantly have the ball, and they’re wearing shoes and clothes that actually translate into the general public buying them. I wouldn’t sell basketball short at all.

(04-15-2022 10:33 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:51 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I don't foresee that happening but I suppose it's possible.

Perhaps college women's soccer or volleyball could be bigger than hoops.

Lots of folks love soccer and volleyball is fast-paced (with the games played relatively quickly in terms of time).

Volleyball is way bigger than basketball and soccer. In fact, volleyball is killing basketball. Nowadays, the best girl athletes play volleyball. In fact, basketball is third in terms of getting the athletes. I think you may still have more fan support for basketball at the college level, but it is getting close.

Proof? Go to a sports complex on the weekend. Most days you will have a girls volleyball tournament or a boys bball tournament. Girls bball tournaments are rare because you can't get enough teams to participate. So, you will only have maybe one in a geographic area each weekend, sometimes less, and there will be a limited number of teams participating. On the other hand, it is normal to have 500-1000 girls participating in a girls vball tournament with a number of tournaments in a geographic area every weekend, with larger regional and national tournaments also being held each weekend.

As a former girls coach, the demise of girls bball is kind of sad. If this continues, I wonder if the some schools may drop programs due to a lack of recruitable athletes. While the quality of bball at the highest level is very good, you can already see how the quality has dropped in the low major, D2 and D3 levels. But, even the high majors bball schools are losing out to vball on top tier athletes. A girl like Carter Booth would be one of the premier athletes in college basketball, but she plays vball instead (despite the fact her dad is GM of the Nuggets).

Interesting info. It would be nice to see college women's and men's volleyball become a big deal. The sport clearly lends itself to TV.

The difference between #1 and #150 is also enormous in softball compared to baseball. Let alone between #1 and #300. But all you need is one or two great pitchers. Alexander and Humphrey pretty much guided JMU to the CWS last year.

They are below .500 this year.

Personally, softball is more watchable than women's basketball to me.

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

about 4 years ago, I said Softball will overtake WBB in popularity in a decade with fans and tv. Softball just needed a few more big money schools to get serious about the sport. That's now happening before our eyes.

Truth is, WBB is had to watch without a strong personal interest in the players, whereas softball is easy to watch. I think WBB will still be the most popular with player participation.

(04-16-2022 09:11 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I feel like a lot of posters are projecting some regional biases onto the entire country.

The NCAA Women’s Basketball Tournament has just had its highest TV ratings since the early-2000s (which was a time when viewership for *everything* was higher on TV):

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/04...-carolina/

I don’t know if there has been any softball or volleyball player while in college (and not as a result of the Olympics or other competition) that has ever had the name recognition of Paige Bueckers now or a whole host of women’s basketball players (like Candace Parker) in prior years. The NIL compensation figures seem to be bearing this out where women’s basketball players are getting outsized amounts compared to all other women’s sports.

I don’t necessarily buy that the best women’s athletes are disproportionately choosing volleyball or other sports over basketball nationwide. Once again, that seems to be projecting regional interest and/or specific communities (e.g. urban vs. suburban vs. exurban vs. rural). The NIL point could very well provide different incentives to basketball compared to other sports simply because of its nature just as we have seen with how NBA players disproportionately get endorsements: they are highly visible without any helmets or masks, the best players are on-the-court more of the time and constantly have the ball, and they’re wearing shoes and clothes that actually translate into the general public buying them. I wouldn’t sell basketball short at all.

There are traveling leagues for volleyball, much like soccer. I agree with the other poster that there is a lot more grassroots interest in volleyball and soccer than basketball. Softball is at the bottom of those 4. My personal experience is that the better HS athletes tend to choose volleyball.

(04-16-2022 09:11 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I feel like a lot of posters are projecting some regional biases onto the entire country.

The NCAA Women’s Basketball Tournament has just had its highest TV ratings since the early-2000s (which was a time when viewership for *everything* was higher on TV):

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/04...-carolina/

I don’t know if there has been any softball or volleyball player while in college (and not as a result of the Olympics or other competition) that has ever had the name recognition of Paige Bueckers now or a whole host of women’s basketball players (like Candace Parker) in prior years. The NIL compensation figures seem to be bearing this out where women’s basketball players are getting outsized amounts compared to all other women’s sports.

I don’t necessarily buy that the best women’s athletes are disproportionately choosing volleyball or other sports over basketball nationwide. Once again, that seems to be projecting regional interest and/or specific communities (e.g. urban vs. suburban vs. exurban vs. rural). The NIL point could very well provide different incentives to basketball compared to other sports simply because of its nature just as we have seen with how NBA players disproportionately get endorsements: they are highly visible without any helmets or masks, the best players are on-the-court more of the time and constantly have the ball, and they’re wearing shoes and clothes that actually translate into the general public buying them. I wouldn’t sell basketball short at all.

Seasonal weather matters.

I seriously doubt anyone will drop women’s basketball. Why would they take on the PR and Title IX headaches that would cause?

(04-16-2022 04:52 PM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  I seriously doubt anyone will drop women’s basketball. Why would they take on the PR and Title IX headaches that would cause?

It's been done in the distant past - Utah State did it in I think the late 80s or early 90s - but in today's uber political climate, I agree with you. It ain't happening.

I would assume it's easier to sponsor women's volleyball than it is softball given almost every college of any size offers a gym/arena. Maybe I'm wrong.

(04-15-2022 10:21 AM)johnintx Wrote:  

(04-15-2022 07:38 AM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  Looking at women’s sports, do you think college softball can become more popular than women’s basketball and become something close to a women’s “revenue sport?” It seems to be getting more and more airtime on ESPN, some large crowds at Southern schools, and faster version of baseball.

My school is Oklahoma. To see OU Twitter these days is to see people complaining because they can't see a lot of the games on TV due to various TV contracts. There is a lot of demand, as Oklahoma is currently the #1 team in the nation. The Sooners are currently 37-0, with 30 wins by run rule. OU has five national championships since 2000. OU currently has a 1300 seat stadium, which is sold out for the season, including fall scrimmages. Ground has been broken for a new stadium that will seat 5000. The program will only be helped by the move to the SEC.

It helps OU that the Women's College World Series is played every year in OKC. Hall of Fame Stadium has been expanded to seat 13,000, and sells out for the CWS, especially when the local teams are there. It's like if Nebraska and/or Creighton were national powers in baseball with the CWS played in Omaha every year. National championships aren't guaranteed, but it helps when the championship is played in your backyard.

Softball has the potential to be like baseball: popular at some schools, even break-even at a couple. It's big in the SEC. And, as in baseball, the majority of the players are recruited from warm-weather locales: California, Arizona, or the South.

Softball is played year-round in Southern California, and there is rarely a day when weather is an issue. I think facilities and coaching have improved for softball, which might explain why there are so many good softball players out here. Patty Gasso, the OU head coach, played her college softball at Long Beach State. She has built a powerhouse at OU and a recruiting pipeline to California. Nine of the 22 girls on this year's roster are from California, one from Arizona and one from Hawaii. They are going to be tough to beat.

Oklahoma could make a profit on softball in a 5,000-seat stadium. That would be impressive for softball. I think women's basketball is going to draw more fans at most campuses and even though I like women's softball because it is faster, I just don't know if they can close the gap enough. UCLA softball will sell-out their 1,328-seat stadium for most games, but the UCLA women play in Pauley Pavilion and that venue just holds a lot more fans.

For womens sports tv money will be more critical than gate IMO.