I had a thought stemming from the mid-major thread that maybe some old heads can answer:

What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

My guess is they were between St. John’s and Fordham level back then. Not sure what that translates to today. I can’t find where they played their home games back then. I know MSG was popular for double headers back in the 50’s.

(04-05-2022 09:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  I had a thought stemming from the mid-major thread that maybe some old heads can answer:

What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

My guess is they were between St. John’s and Fordham level back then. Not sure what that translates to today. I can’t find where they played their home games back then. I know MSG was popular for double headers back in the 50’s.

Not sure, but my grandfather attended UNC in the ‘30s and distinctly remembered a Carolina student paper with a headline “Tar Heels Stomp Violets” after a football game with NYU. Couldn’t find that particular paper but a recap is still available from The NY Times which is kind of cool.

(04-05-2022 09:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

Before my time, but here are the records by season for NYU in its last 10 years:

1961-62: 20-5 (NCAA Regional Semifinals)
1962-63: 18-5 (NCAA Regional Semifinals)
1963-64: 17-10 (NIT Semifinals)
1964-65: 17-9 (NIT Semifinals)
1965-66: 18-10 (NIT Runner-Up)
1966-67: 10-16
1967-68: 8-16
1968-69: 12-9
1969-70: 12-12
1970-71: 5-20

Not having its own home arena really hurt them.

IIRC, NYU athletics dropped out of D1 something like 11 years after their MBB program.

(04-05-2022 09:46 PM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  

(04-05-2022 09:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  I had a thought stemming from the mid-major thread that maybe some old heads can answer:

What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

My guess is they were between St. John’s and Fordham level back then. Not sure what that translates to today. I can’t find where they played their home games back then. I know MSG was popular for double headers back in the 50’s.

Not sure, but my grandfather attended UNC in the ‘30s and distinctly remembered a Carolina student paper with a headline “Tar Heels Stomp Violets” after a football game with NYU. Couldn’t find that particular paper but a recap is still available from The NY Times which is kind of cool.

I looked up "Joseph C. Nichols" (https://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/24/obitu...times.html)

He started at the NYT in 1923 and worked there for 50 years as a reporter before retiring in 1975. He died in December 1984.

(04-05-2022 09:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  I had a thought stemming from the mid-major thread that maybe some old heads can answer:

What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

My guess is they were between St. John’s and Fordham level back then. Not sure what that translates to today. I can’t find where they played their home games back then. I know MSG was popular for double headers back in the 50’s.

The History Of NYU Basketball You Didn’t Know

This is an interesting interview. Barry Kramer might have been NCAA player of the year in 1962, except there was a newspaper strike that went on for months and so there was a publicity blackout. He tells of the league of New York City schools that would play a doubleheader at MSG every Thursday night, and said that NYU would often be the marquee game, while Fordham or others might play the matinee. There are a few game clips.

Capital District Basketball Hall of Fame presents - Barry Kramer interviewed by Bob Pezano (Youtube)

NYU was and is a large university. It appears that at one time it was a big deal to come to NYC and play in MSG. Schools like Duke or UNC would come and play a game. I couldn't find any evidence of schools that would play tours, but instead would just come in for a single game. NYU appears to have played most games at home.

NYU established its main campus in the Bronx in 1894, when they could acquire more space as the city grew out, but they kept the Washington Square campus. NYU also established an extension on Long Island in 1935, Nassau College – Hofstra Memorial of New York University. It became the independent Hofstra University in 1939.

NYU built Alumni Gymnasium on the Bronx campus in 1950. The NY Times article seems to think it was the 8th Wonder of the world. I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps it was the cost, which was $1,000,000. The basketball court was supposedly larger than the court at MSG, which perhaps was undersized(?). Alumni Gymnasium had collapsible bleachers and 6 basketball standards. It also had a swimming pool - but NYC would not let it be filled due to water rationing. But it also only sat 1100.

It appears that NYU played some games at Alumni Gymnasium and some at MSG. I think sports-reference.com might not be totally accurate.

The Bronx campus was sold to CUNY in 1973, when NYU was having a financial crisis The College on a Hill, and NYU moved back to their main campus at Washington Square near Greenwich Viilage. The Engineering school which was in Brooklyn was spun off, but later reacquired. The campus in the Bronx is now Bronx Community College and junior college games are played in Alumni Gymnasium.

Note, St. John's was in downtown Brooklyn, but moved to the current location in Queens beginning in 1954.

(04-06-2022 12:22 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(04-05-2022 09:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  I had a thought stemming from the mid-major thread that maybe some old heads can answer:

What modern day program would NYU basketball be comparable to in the 60’s through 1971 when they cut the program? I see they made a Final 4 in 1960.

My guess is they were between St. John’s and Fordham level back then. Not sure what that translates to today. I can’t find where they played their home games back then. I know MSG was popular for double headers back in the 50’s.

The History Of NYU Basketball You Didn’t Know

This is an interesting interview. Barry Kramer might have been NCAA player of the year in 1962, except there was a newspaper strike that went on for months and so there was a publicity blackout. He tells of the league of New York City schools that would play a doubleheader at MSG every Thursday night, and said that NYU would often be the marquee game, while Fordham or others might play the matinee. There are a few game clips.

Capital District Basketball Hall of Fame presents - Barry Kramer interviewed by Bob Pezano (Youtube)

NYU was and is a large university. It appears that at one time it was a big deal to come to NYC and play in MSG. Schools like Duke or UNC would come and play a game. I couldn't find any evidence of schools that would play tours, but instead would just come in for a single game. NYU appears to have played most games at home.

NYU established its main campus in the Bronx in 1894, when they could acquire more space as the city grew out, but they kept the Washington Square campus. NYU also established an extension on Long Island in 1935, Nassau College – Hofstra Memorial of New York University. It became the independent Hofstra University in 1939.

NYU built Alumni Gymnasium on the Bronx campus in 1950. The NY Times article seems to think it was the 8th Wonder of the world. I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps it was the cost, which was $1,000,000. The basketball court was supposedly larger than the court at MSG, which perhaps was undersized(?). Alumni Gymnasium had collapsible bleachers and 6 basketball standards. It also had a swimming pool - but NYC would not let it be filled due to water rationing. But it also only sat 1100.

It appears that NYU played some games at Alumni Gymnasium and some at MSG. I think sports-reference.com might not be totally accurate.

The Bronx campus was sold to CUNY in 1973, when NYU was having a financial crisis The College on a Hill, and NYU moved back to their main campus at Washington Square near Greenwich Viilage. The Engineering school which was in Brooklyn was spun off, but later reacquired. The campus in the Bronx is now Bronx Community College and junior college games are played in Alumni Gymnasium.

Note, St. John's was in downtown Brooklyn, but moved to the current location in Queens beginning in 1954.

An interesting tidbit regarding SJU. I did not recall that.

Cool article, jmrtex

I remember reading they sold that campus and that’s where their football field was. I read last night about Alumni Gym.

I’d imagine a D1 NYU would be in the Patriot today—right?

(04-06-2022 10:32 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’d imagine a D1 NYU would be in the Patriot today—right?

Agreed. They seem similar in some ways to Holy Cross.

(04-06-2022 10:32 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’d imagine a D1 NYU would be in the Patriot today—right?

That's what I'm thinking. No reason for them in the CAA without football. Surprisingly there are more billion dollar endowments in the CAA than the PL.

(04-06-2022 11:20 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(04-06-2022 10:32 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’d imagine a D1 NYU would be in the Patriot today—right?

Agreed. They seem similar in some ways to Holy Cross.

Night and day.

Holy Cross is a liberal arts college of 3,100 students in central Massachusetts. NYU is a urban university of 51,000 students.

Had it not been for their financial troubles around 1970 that forced the dropping of basketball, I think NYU would have been a founding member of the Big East alongside St. John's. And a good feeling the Violets would still be there today.

I don’t think their facilities arrangements or “poor” facilities hurt them at all. Today nearly all schools have more than adequate facilities. Back then, lots of schools, especially the ones in bigger cities had either really small home gyms or shared public facilities like MSG. I don’t think they were unusual in that regard at all, or even seen as lacking in facilities or behind the times.

(04-06-2022 05:06 PM)Todor Wrote:  I don’t think their facilities arrangements or “poor” facilities hurt them at all. Today nearly all schools have more than adequate facilities. Back then, lots of schools, especially the ones in bigger cities had either really small home gyms or shared public facilities like MSG. I don’t think they were unusual in that regard at all, or even seen as lacking in facilities or behind the times.

I wasn't saying that Alumni Gymnasium was a poor facility - it was more a way that the NY Times was practically gushing about the facility.

If you listened to the Kramer interview he said that when NYU would play the Thursday doubleheader in MSG they would get 18,000 fans while the Knicks would get 4 or 5,000. But that makes it more remarkable that you would build a gym that held 1,000 for games that weren't at MSG. The St.John's campus in Brooklyn was a city block. DeGray Gymnasium had 500 attend a game in 1935 (St. John's crushed St. Francis 37-19).

The land in Brooklyn was purchased before there were streets. When ground was broken, visitors were advised to catch excursion (trolley) cars from "the ferries". This was prior to the Brooklyn Bridge.

The land in Queens was purchased in 1935, but the move of the campus did not begin until 1954. During the transition, games were played at Van Buren High School and MSG, until what is now Carnesecca Arena was built. That arena only holds about 5500. And ideal size for an arena is probably around 6000-8000. We should add more colleges so that would be sufficient.

An interesting tidbit that I had skipped was out-of-state students at NYU had dropped to around 10% when they left the Bronx, largely because it wasn't considered safe. It is hard to guess where they would be now - would it be an elite school that would it in the Patriot or would it be something else.

There used to be a tournament at MSG between Christmas and New Years that was hosted by St. John's.

(04-06-2022 02:05 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  Had it not been for their financial troubles around 1970 that forced the dropping of basketball, I think NYU would have been a founding member of the Big East alongside St. John's. And a good feeling the Violets would still be there today.

This...heck the Big East offered Holy Cross a membership and they turned it down. I'd imagine NYU if they continued D-1 sports they would have been in the original grouping.

What’s amazing is NYU was “almost broke” in the late 70’s and now they have a 5 billion dollar endowment. Somebody deserves a gold star.

The complicated part for them to continue D1 was the fact they sold their Bronx campus to stop the bleeding. That’s where all their athletic facilities were so they would have had to play all their home games at MSG.

From what I can find, it looks like NYU still doesn’t have a home arena and plays at a local community college’s gym. But wow, the NYU brand would be the easiest to capture the generic New Yorker’s attention if they were any good at the D1 level.

(04-07-2022 09:05 AM)esayem Wrote:  What’s amazing is NYU was “almost broke” in the late 70’s and now they have a 5 billion dollar endowment. Somebody deserves a gold star.

The complicated part for them to continue D1 was the fact they sold their Bronx campus to stop the bleeding. That’s where all their athletic facilities were so they would have had to play all their home games at MSG.

From what I can find, it looks like NYU still doesn’t have a home arena and plays at a local community college’s gym. But wow, the NYU brand would be the easiest to capture the generic New Yorker’s attention if they were any good at the D1 level.

Being on the verge of bankruptcy was more a function of running large operating deficits, than a lack of endowment. Much of New York City was in financial trouble at the time. They have turned the corner on that crisis and are now pretty stable.

NYU is the largest private university in the US, with 27K undergrads and 25K grad students. Last year they had over 100,000 applications for admission. They became a member of the AAU in 1950 and have more than 500K living alumni and an endowment of nearly $6 billion. If they were to choose to reemphasize athletics I imagine they would soon eclipse St. John's in basketball. But I think they are happy where they are.

When I was in school in NYC in the 60's, NYU had nationally ranked hoops teams. In 1963, with stars Barry Kramer and Happy Hairston, they were a legitimate Final Four type program. They, along with Fordham, St. John's and Manhattan frequently used Madison Square Garden as a "home" court, though Fordham and St John's also had on campus facilities. Those four were featured in doubleheaders at the Garden on Thursday nights, attracting national powerhouses who valued the publicity they got in the media capital of the world. They were often invited to both the NIT and the annual Holiday Festival at the Garden, premier events at the time.

(04-07-2022 09:05 AM)esayem Wrote:  What’s amazing is NYU was “almost broke” in the late 70’s and now they have a 5 billion dollar endowment. Somebody deserves a gold star.

Boston College was near liquidation in the early 1970's. There were initial talks to sell the campus.

Why was BC in the red?