I'm too young to remember, so I'm interested in the opinions of anyone who does. The numbers would indicate they weren't. Four total Final Four appearances and two trips to the title game (and three of those appearances happened consecutively less than 20 years prior.) A successful coach (Bill Foster) left the job for what he had to have thought was a better opportunity at South Carolina. Then again, it was always a prestigious school and they had a lot of wins over the years, so maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

(03-21-2022 12:13 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  I'm too young to remember, so I'm interested in the opinions of anyone who does. The numbers would indicate they weren't. Four total Final Four appearances and two trips to the title game (and three of those appearances happened consecutively less than 20 years prior.) A successful coach (Bill Foster) left the job for what he had to have thought was a better opportunity at South Carolina. Then again, it was always a prestigious school and they had a lot of wins over the years, so maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

Kind of. Purplish. So in the end, no.

But Duke was a very well known program leading up to the "K" regime. Their late 1970s teams, with Mike Gminski, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks and Kenny Denard, were very prominent. Played in a lot of big games, high rankings, all of that.

Coach K's first few years were a letdown by comparison. Looking back, it's hard to figure how he survived his first 3 years.

IIRC, in 1983, when Ralph Sampson and UVA beat Duke by 40 points in the ACC tournament to close out another losing season, coach K came within a whisker of being fired.

That was the worst loss in Duke history, and to this day the worst loss by anyone in the ACC tournament.

Three Final Fours from 1964 through 1966, and one in 1978. Six ACC titles before 1980.

A step behind UNC and probably a half step behind State and Maryland. But very, very good.

I would say "semi blue-blood" prior to K.

The Duke program as we know it today was essentially born in the 1950s (Duke joined the ACC in 1953, with the program's first season in 1905-06) and then hit hard in the 1960s. It made one NCAA appearance during that decade (1955) but had no NIT appearances (the NIT was as prestigious as the NCAA back then) during the 1950s. Duke had three Final Four appearances in the 1960s and was, as they say, "on the map."

College basketball started to become "a big deal" in the 1950s thanks to television and, to a lesser degree, integration of Black students-athletes at programs located in the North and West Coast. Duke basketball's rise corresponds with that decade (to an extent).

NC State was closer to a blue blood than Duke prior to K.

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(03-21-2022 12:34 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I would say "semi blue-blood" prior to K.

The Duke program as we know it today was essentially born in the 1950s (Duke joined the ACC in 1953, with the program's first season in 1905-06) and then hit hard in the 1960s. It made one NCAA appearance during that decade (1955) but had no NIT appearances (the NIT was as prestigious as the NCAA back then) during the 1950s. Duke had three Final Four appearances in the 1960s and was, as they say, "on the map."

College basketball started to become "a big deal" in the 1950s thanks to television and, to a lesser degree, integration of Black students-athletes at programs located in the North and West Coast. Duke basketball's rise corresponds with that decade (to an extent).

Here's some more historical info about Duke's basketball program:

According to sports-reference.com, Duke played their first season in 1905-06 as an independent and joined the Southern Conference in 1928-29 (it's 9th season - the SoCon was founded in 1920-21). They finished above .700 5 seasons between 1905 and 1929

The original teams in the SoCon included a mixture of what are now ACC and SEC schools: UK, UGA, Clemson, Mississipi St., Tenn, Tulane, South Carolina, Auburn, and GA Tech.

They remained a member of the Southern Conference until 1953-54, when they and 6 other schools in their region founded the ACC. They finished 10 seasons >.700 in 24 seasons, won 5 SoCon tournaments and won 3 regular season SoCon championships between 1928-29 and 1953-54.

They didn't play in a NIT or NCAA tournament until the year after they co-founded the ACC. They played in a total of 7 NCAA tournament appearances between 1939 and 1980, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1978, 1979 (7 NCAA tourneys in 40 years), and in the 1967, 1968, 1970, and 1971 NIT.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/con.../1921.html

"On May 8, 1953, the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC) was created during a meeting of representatives from the Southern Conference in Greensboro. The initial members of the conference were Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina and Wake Forest. Virginia was accepted as a member later that year.

The seven schools pulled out of the Southern Conference for two reasons. The Southern Conference’s 17-institution membership had made scheduling games very difficult. Additionally, the Southern Conference had banned post-season bowl games because of gambling and financial scandals. The budding conference elected to allow schools to play in bowl games."

Duke was a national powerhouse between 1951 and 1968, finishing in the top 20 12 times between 1951-52 and 1969 under Head coaches Harold Bradley and Vic Bubas. They also finished in the top 15 in 1978, 1979, and 1980 under HC Bill E. Foster, who won the NABC Coach of the Year award in 1978 after leading the Blue Devils to the NCAA championship game.

Despite Foster's outstanding achievements at Duke, Coach K. was hired as Duke's HC for the 1980-81 season.

Coach K. struggled during his first three years as a HC, at Duke:

1980-81 17-13
1981-82 10-17
1982-83 11-17
1983-84 24-10

.

I think that may come back to what definition one uses for “blue blood”.

Traditionally, and probably most technically correct, it essentially means “old money”. So by that definition, a Rockefeller is a “blue blood”. In college basketball, the likes of Indiana and Kansas would qualify.

More recently, particularly in terms of sports, it’s used to indicate that one is elite or accomplished. So by that definition, while Jeff Bezos wouldn’t qualify under the traditional definition, he would under this one. In college basketball, UConn would be an example.

For Duke, those closer to the ACC would have a better sense of it’s history. Another dimension one could possibly consider is how much a program’s prominence is due to one coach. Others have done well there but certainly K is by far the most prominent.

In the end, it’s all fodder for debate. There are plenty of advocates of both perspectives.

(03-21-2022 12:13 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  I'm too young to remember, so I'm interested in the opinions of anyone who does. The numbers would indicate they weren't. Four total Final Four appearances and two trips to the title game (and three of those appearances happened consecutively less than 20 years prior.) A successful coach (Bill Foster) left the job for what he had to have thought was a better opportunity at South Carolina. Then again, it was always a prestigious school and they had a lot of wins over the years, so maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

They were prestigious in an academic manner, but no way in basketball. They were just a team in the ACC. Nothing more.

For God's sakes Duke won the Southern Conference title in 1938, 41, 42, 44, and 46. They were the runner up in 1929, 30, 32, 33, 34, 48, 50, 51, and 52. When it became the ACC they won the ACC title in 60, 63, 64, and 66. They were runner up in 55, 61, 65, and 69.

Duke fell off at the end of the 1960's with a controversial coaching search where Adolph Rupp's name surfaced causing a faculty riot. Then they hired military style Bucky Waters at a time when long hair and fighting were in. For the last 90 years Duke has been at the top of the conference in basketball in EVERY decade with a rough spot between 70-76 and 82-85.

Damn some of y'all know nothing.

Be it the Southern Conference or ACC, only two programs could be elite at one time form 1946 to 1991 UNC, NC State, and Duke rotated around. Then NC State killed it's program and Duke has never looked back.

Rankings for college basketball did not start until 1949. Here are the year end rankings for the SoCon/ACC from 49-70 and you tell me what you think about Duke:

49 NC State 13
50 NC State 5
51 NC State 7
53 NC State 8
54 Duke 12, NC State 13
55 NC State 6
56 NC State 2, UNC 11
57 UNC 1, WF 11
58 MD 6, Duke 10, UNC 13, NC State 20
59 NC State 5, UNC 9
60 Duke 18, WF 19
61 UNC 6, Duke 9, WF 11
62 WF 7, Duke 18
63 Duke 2
64 Duke 4
65 Duke 9, NC State 12
66 Duke 2
67 UNC 3, Duke 19
68 UNC 4, Duke 11
69 UNC 4, SC 13
70 SC 6, NC State 10

Duke looks blue to me before Bucky Waters.

Duke could not get past money man Sam Gilbert's UCLA players nor could UNC during the 1960's. In conference Duke could not get past Everette Case's players at NC State and he was at State from 1946 to 1964.

Can anyone figure out why a basketball-centric school not named NC State or Duke voted against including the 1921 - 1953 conference records as the PAC did?

From the late 1920's until the mid 1960's Duke had the best overall men's athletics program in the Southeastern United States, bar none. Then Duke chose to deemphasize football. Yes K is their greatest basketball coach, but Duke basketball was great in the 30's, 40's, 60's, and late 70's before K.

(03-21-2022 06:27 PM)Statefan Wrote:  For God's sakes Duke won the Southern Conference title in 1938, 41, 42, 44, and 46. They were the runner up in 1929, 30, 32, 33, 34, 48, 50, 51, and 52. When it became the ACC they won the ACC title in 60, 63, 64, and 66. They were runner up in 55, 61, 65, and 69.

Duke fell off at the end of the 1960's with a controversial coaching search where Adolph Rupp's name surfaced causing a faculty riot. Then they hired military style Bucky Waters at a time when long hair and fighting were in. For the last 90 years Duke has been at the top of the conference in basketball in EVERY decade with a rough spot between 70-76 and 82-85.

Damn some of y'all know nothing.

Be it the Southern Conference or ACC, only two programs could be elite at one time form 1946 to 1991 UNC, NC State, and Duke rotated around. Then NC State killed it's program and Duke has never looked back.

Conference titles doesn't make a team a blue blood.

(03-21-2022 07:09 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 06:27 PM)Statefan Wrote:  For God's sakes Duke won the Southern Conference title in 1938, 41, 42, 44, and 46. They were the runner up in 1929, 30, 32, 33, 34, 48, 50, 51, and 52. When it became the ACC they won the ACC title in 60, 63, 64, and 66. They were runner up in 55, 61, 65, and 69.

Duke fell off at the end of the 1960's with a controversial coaching search where Adolph Rupp's name surfaced causing a faculty riot. Then they hired military style Bucky Waters at a time when long hair and fighting were in. For the last 90 years Duke has been at the top of the conference in basketball in EVERY decade with a rough spot between 70-76 and 82-85.

Damn some of y'all know nothing.

Be it the Southern Conference or ACC, only two programs could be elite at one time form 1946 to 1991 UNC, NC State, and Duke rotated around. Then NC State killed it's program and Duke has never looked back.

Conference titles doesn't make a team a blue blood.

Silly

(03-21-2022 07:12 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 07:09 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 06:27 PM)Statefan Wrote:  For God's sakes Duke won the Southern Conference title in 1938, 41, 42, 44, and 46. They were the runner up in 1929, 30, 32, 33, 34, 48, 50, 51, and 52. When it became the ACC they won the ACC title in 60, 63, 64, and 66. They were runner up in 55, 61, 65, and 69.

Duke fell off at the end of the 1960's with a controversial coaching search where Adolph Rupp's name surfaced causing a faculty riot. Then they hired military style Bucky Waters at a time when long hair and fighting were in. For the last 90 years Duke has been at the top of the conference in basketball in EVERY decade with a rough spot between 70-76 and 82-85.

Damn some of y'all know nothing.

Be it the Southern Conference or ACC, only two programs could be elite at one time form 1946 to 1991 UNC, NC State, and Duke rotated around. Then NC State killed it's program and Duke has never looked back.

Conference titles doesn't make a team a blue blood.

Silly

Yes, you are. Lots of teams dominated conferences. That doesn't make them a blue blood.

It took until 1986 before Duke had more Final Four appearances than Illinois. Then they went on a remarkable run.

So no, before Coach K, Duke was a solid program, but not a blue blood.

(03-21-2022 07:15 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 07:12 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 07:09 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 06:27 PM)Statefan Wrote:  For God's sakes Duke won the Southern Conference title in 1938, 41, 42, 44, and 46. They were the runner up in 1929, 30, 32, 33, 34, 48, 50, 51, and 52. When it became the ACC they won the ACC title in 60, 63, 64, and 66. They were runner up in 55, 61, 65, and 69.

Duke fell off at the end of the 1960's with a controversial coaching search where Adolph Rupp's name surfaced causing a faculty riot. Then they hired military style Bucky Waters at a time when long hair and fighting were in. For the last 90 years Duke has been at the top of the conference in basketball in EVERY decade with a rough spot between 70-76 and 82-85.

Damn some of y'all know nothing.

Be it the Southern Conference or ACC, only two programs could be elite at one time form 1946 to 1991 UNC, NC State, and Duke rotated around. Then NC State killed it's program and Duke has never looked back.

Conference titles doesn't make a team a blue blood.

Silly

Yes, you are. Lots of teams dominated conferences. That doesn't make them a blue blood.

It took until 1986 before Duke had more Final Four appearances than Illinois. Then they went on a remarkable run.

So no, before Coach K, Duke was a solid program, but not a blue blood.

It took until 1986 before Duke had more Final Four appearances than Illinois. Then they went on a remarkable run. Huh ?

Win at least one national title before opining about Duke and you will be better off.

(03-21-2022 12:13 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  I'm too young to remember, so I'm interested in the opinions of anyone who does. The numbers would indicate they weren't. Four total Final Four appearances and two trips to the title game (and three of those appearances happened consecutively less than 20 years prior.) A successful coach (Bill Foster) left the job for what he had to have thought was a better opportunity at South Carolina. Then again, it was always a prestigious school and they had a lot of wins over the years, so maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

Foster left because of the pressure.

(03-21-2022 06:59 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Can anyone figure out why a basketball-centric school not named NC State or Duke voted against including the 1921 - 1953 conference records as the PAC did?

Because the schools left the Southern Conference, which still was a functioning conference. The PCAA was defunct by the time the AAWU reformed as the Pac-8.

(03-21-2022 12:34 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Three Final Fours from 1964 through 1966, and one in 1978. Six ACC titles before 1980.

A step behind UNC and probably a half step behind State and Maryland. But very, very good.

Before that 1978 Final Four appearance (in which they were runnerup), Duke had only finished as high as second place in either the NCAAT or the NIT one time (that 1964 NCAAT) and were never a winner in either. So, while they were sometimes good, they weren't great before Coach K. If success over many decades is a hallmark of a blue blood, then Duke probably doesn't qualify.

(03-21-2022 08:28 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 12:34 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Three Final Fours from 1964 through 1966, and one in 1978. Six ACC titles before 1980.

A step behind UNC and probably a half step behind State and Maryland. But very, very good.

Before that 1978 Final Four appearance (in which they were runnerup), Duke had only finished as high as second place in either the NCAAT or the NIT one time (that 1964 NCAAT) and were never a winner in either. So, while they were sometimes good, they weren't great before Coach K. If success over many decades is a hallmark of a blue blood, then Duke probably doesn't qualify.

That is one of the dumbest statements I have read you make.

I guess I'm the only one here that knows that prior to 79 the tournament was not seeded, meaning UCLA got a pass into the regional final while the teams in the east had to usually get through at least 2 legitimate teams to make a regional final. I'm probably the only one here that knows for the first 10 years the Southern Conference and Southeastern Conference were made to share a spot in the East.

When Duke Indoor Stadium was finished in 1939 it was the largest basketball arena south of Philadelphia. It keep that title for 10 years. As recently as the 1970's the now renamed Cameron Indoor Stadium sat more for basketball that Kentucky, GT, or Tennessee. But hell, none of that matters. Everyone here but me can't remember when City of Raleigh was the poor relation to the City of Durham.

No wonder the country is going to Hell, there is a memory cap on anything older than 40 years, because nothing prior to last week matters next week.

(03-21-2022 08:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(03-21-2022 06:59 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Can anyone figure out why a basketball-centric school not named NC State or Duke voted against including the 1921 - 1953 conference records as the PAC did?

Because the schools left the Southern Conference, which still was a functioning conference. The PCAA was defunct by the time the AAWU reformed as the Pac-8.

That was a rhetorical question. Two members voted against it in the late 50's.