(02-14-2022 03:53 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  A lot of people consider anything below I-80 “southern” Illinois. But as everyone has mentioned, Central Illinois is very distinct from the Little Egypt region of Southern ILL. Most of Central ILL is relatively healthy. Decatur’s manufacturing collapsed in the 90s, but I guess still has enough agribusiness (ADM, Staley’s) to hang around at a new smaller baseline.

At some point I think SIU-C quit actually being a vibrant “party school” while still retaining all the negative stigma of being a party school*. I think that’s partly why SIU-E started becoming a more viable option in an already dwindling population base.

*I think it was 98 or 99 when SIU-C quit closing the campus and banning alcohol sales over Halloween weekend. The influx of students from other campuses that were there for mayhem was not good. Hadn’t really kept up in what was going on down there since, but that was when in my mind it went from this is fun to this is a problem.

Yeah, Decatur & Danville & Peoria are similar to Ft Wayne or Lima, OH. They still have good schools and good jobs, just not as many of the good jobs as they used to.

The state really starts to change once you get south of Effingham.

By the time you're 50 miles south of Effingham, it's the poorest area in the North - similar to rural Maine and the Appalachian part of Ohio.

Fun fact: Carbondale has the lowest median income of any city in the country with more than 20,000 people.

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:14 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its not just bad luck that the Basketball team could not sustain its success.

SIU saw its overall enrollment plummeted from 22k to 14k from 2007 to 2017. In the process, it became a struggling directional university in a small market. That made it very unappealing in the realignment craze that occurred from 2010-2014.

Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall? I used to think of them as a strong possibility to move up, because at over 21,000 students, they were bigger than a lot of I-A schools and one of the 10 largest FCS schools. Of the schools larger than them 10-15 years ago, only UC-Davis, Sacramento St. and Penn are still FCS (and California and Ivy League schools will not move up). Schools like UTSA, Texas St., Georgia St. and UMass all moved up.

Hey Guys, great topic by the way and I know Carbondale and Little Egypt quite well. Speaking of Cairo, I’ve watched a couple of documentaries about the place and it’s quite interesting. I don’t know how exactly that area can be rehabbed but I certainly hope the best for the people there. It seems to be a slow death for that area of the country.
Oh, and Go Salukis! It may take another coaching change for Men’s Basketball, but the fan base is solid and there still is potential there. Heck, if Murray can do it..
Cheers!

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:14 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its not just bad luck that the Basketball team could not sustain its success.

SIU saw its overall enrollment plummeted from 22k to 14k from 2007 to 2017. In the process, it became a struggling directional university in a small market. That made it very unappealing in the realignment craze that occurred from 2010-2014.

Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall?

Aside from economics/demographics, don't underestimate the SIUE factor. Not only did SIUE gradually erode Carbondale's St Louis pipeline (why drive 2 hours to Carbondale when you can stay local?), even some central IL and Chicagoland students began to pick SIUE over Carbondale.

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:14 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its not just bad luck that the Basketball team could not sustain its success.

SIU saw its overall enrollment plummeted from 22k to 14k from 2007 to 2017. In the process, it became a struggling directional university in a small market. That made it very unappealing in the realignment craze that occurred from 2010-2014.

Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall? I used to think of them as a strong possibility to move up, because at over 21,000 students, they were bigger than a lot of I-A schools and one of the 10 largest FCS schools. Of the schools larger than them 10-15 years ago, only UC-Davis, Sacramento St. and Penn are still FCS (and California and Ivy League schools will not move up). Schools like UTSA, Texas St., Georgia St. and UMass all moved up.

The Illinois public directional schools got hammered over the past decade with the combination of the cliff in high school grads (which occurred nationally but was and continues to be especially acute in Illinois), the fact that the University of Illinois flagship increased enrollment a bit and UIC increased enrollment by a significant amount, and the competitiveness of out-of-state and/or private options since in-state tuition for Illinois public universities is among the highest in the country due to severe state funding cuts. Illinois State’s enrollment stayed stable, but the rest of the Illinois public universities have had significant enrollment issues. Add in competition from neighboring Big Ten schools plus Mizzou, Iowa State and schools across the country specifically targeting Chicago area students and it has been a tough cocktail for SIU, WIU and EIU. Even NIU has had enrollment issues despite its better location closer to Chicago, albeit not as dramatic as the other directional schools.

(02-14-2022 07:33 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:14 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its not just bad luck that the Basketball team could not sustain its success.

SIU saw its overall enrollment plummeted from 22k to 14k from 2007 to 2017. In the process, it became a struggling directional university in a small market. That made it very unappealing in the realignment craze that occurred from 2010-2014.

Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall?

Aside from economics/demographics, don't underestimate the SIUE factor. Not only did SIUE gradually erode Carbondale's St Louis pipeline (why drive 2 hours to Carbondale when you can stay local?), even some central IL and Chicagoland students began to pick SIUE over Carbondale.

I still don’t know what happened, but SIU-E went from virtually nonexistent to the preferred SIU location. Honestly, I feel bad for SIU-C the school and the community but not bad at all for SIU-C athletics. They didn’t graduate a single black basketball player for a long stretch in the early 90s, and their O line tried to beat the **** out of my buddy because my buddy intervened on a guy beating his girlfriend in public. Turned out the guy was their starting QB. Skewed personal opinion, but it seemed like by about 2000 SIU-C got a rep as being a place exclusively for burnouts and douchebags.

Another factor that could lend itself to the drop in enrollment at Eastern, Western, and Southern is that SIU-E is closer to St. Louis than DeKalb (NIU) is to Chicago, so there's probably more entertainment options for kids who go to Edwardsville than they would get in Charleston, Macomb, or Carbondale. Also, prior to 1985, SIU-E was primarily a commuter school. Today, there are more dormitories on campus that can draw kids from other parts of Illinois and elsewhere.

Both Charleston and Carbondale are about 10 miles from Interstate 57. Macomb is not close to any interstate and is the most isolated of the 4 directional schools in Illinois. I think the state is in the process of building a 4-lane highway running from Alton to the Quad Cities, so that should help with Western Illinois' easier accessibility issues, but I don't know how much progress has been made with the construction.

(02-14-2022 09:43 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 07:33 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall?

Aside from economics/demographics, don't underestimate the SIUE factor. Not only did SIUE gradually erode Carbondale's St Louis pipeline (why drive 2 hours to Carbondale when you can stay local?), even some central IL and Chicagoland students began to pick SIUE over Carbondale.

I still don’t know what happened, but SIU-E went from virtually nonexistent to the preferred SIU location. Honestly, I feel bad for SIU-C the school and the community but not bad at all for SIU-C athletics. They didn’t graduate a single black basketball player for a long stretch in the early 90s, and their O line tried to beat the **** out of my buddy because my buddy intervened on a guy beating his girlfriend in public. Turned out the guy was their starting QB. Skewed personal opinion, but it seemed like by about 2000 SIU-C got a rep as being a place exclusively for burnouts and douchebags.

That's funny - SIU and Butler had a rivalry in the 2000s. My brother was a Butler student then, and he said the exact same thing about SIU.

(02-14-2022 09:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:14 AM)goofus Wrote:  Its not just bad luck that the Basketball team could not sustain its success.

SIU saw its overall enrollment plummeted from 22k to 14k from 2007 to 2017. In the process, it became a struggling directional university in a small market. That made it very unappealing in the realignment craze that occurred from 2010-2014.

Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall? I used to think of them as a strong possibility to move up, because at over 21,000 students, they were bigger than a lot of I-A schools and one of the 10 largest FCS schools. Of the schools larger than them 10-15 years ago, only UC-Davis, Sacramento St. and Penn are still FCS (and California and Ivy League schools will not move up). Schools like UTSA, Texas St., Georgia St. and UMass all moved up.

The Illinois public directional schools got hammered over the past decade with the combination of the cliff in high school grads (which occurred nationally but was and continues to be especially acute in Illinois), the fact that the University of Illinois flagship increased enrollment a bit and UIC increased enrollment by a significant amount, and the competitiveness of out-of-state and/or private options since in-state tuition for Illinois public universities is among the highest in the country due to severe state funding cuts. Illinois State’s enrollment stayed stable, but the rest of the Illinois public universities have had significant enrollment issues. Add in competition from neighboring Big Ten schools plus Mizzou, Iowa State and schools across the country specifically targeting Chicago area students and it has been a tough cocktail for SIU, WIU and EIU. Even NIU has had enrollment issues despite its better location closer to Chicago, albeit not as dramatic as the other directional schools.

The 15-20 Illinois population decreased by 11% between 2010 and 2020.

Students who had applied to UIUC, with Illinois State as a backup might now be accept at UIUC. So Illinois State has to replace not only the declining population base, but those who were poached by UIUC. These students are those whose third choice was one of the directionals.

NIU is commutable from the western suburbs. If you live in Naperville or Aurora, and a parent loses a job, divorces, etc. you might discover that commuting to DeKalb is not such a hardship, particularly if you are more careful in selecting times and dates for classes, for example loading up everything on MWF.

And southern Illinois actually lost population (llinois as a whole was stagnant) so the dropoff in college age will be even more severe. It is people in their 20s and 30s who are most likely to move (away). If you are older and lose a job, you might find another job in the area, even for less pay, if your house is mostly paid off, and your family is nearby. Those who move away in their 20s and 30s produce all of the children so it accelerates a downward trend.

Then with greater economic uncertainty and high tuition, schools like SIU are competing with community colleges for freshmen and sophomores who might have previously started at SIU. If they do go on to a four-year university, they are going to be more conscious of location. They may want to continue to commute. And in any event, they only are at SIU for half as long.

(02-16-2022 12:56 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 09:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 06:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 12:31 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Yep. While keeping up their basketball program may have helped them in the realignment game, the declining economic/demographic conditions of Downstate Illinois (badly damaged by the Great Recession and it hasn't really recovered), the growth of SIUE and Missouri State as second tier university options for St. Louis area students, and weak finances for the entire state have hurt SIUC in the conference shuffle as well.

It's not the whole downstate that's suffering.

Central Illinois is doing great. Urbana-Champaign is booming. Bloomington-Normal is now the HQ of the world's 3rd largest auto manufacturer. The government (in Springfield) is never in recession. Corn & soybean production in the Grand Prairie region are at all-time highs.


However, Southern Illinois (aka Little Egypt) is basically just like Appalachia. Geographically, culturally, economically.


SIU's enrollment in fall 2021 was about 11,000. Down from 21,000 in 2010.

What has happened that put them in such free fall? I used to think of them as a strong possibility to move up, because at over 21,000 students, they were bigger than a lot of I-A schools and one of the 10 largest FCS schools. Of the schools larger than them 10-15 years ago, only UC-Davis, Sacramento St. and Penn are still FCS (and California and Ivy League schools will not move up). Schools like UTSA, Texas St., Georgia St. and UMass all moved up.

The Illinois public directional schools got hammered over the past decade with the combination of the cliff in high school grads (which occurred nationally but was and continues to be especially acute in Illinois), the fact that the University of Illinois flagship increased enrollment a bit and UIC increased enrollment by a significant amount, and the competitiveness of out-of-state and/or private options since in-state tuition for Illinois public universities is among the highest in the country due to severe state funding cuts. Illinois State’s enrollment stayed stable, but the rest of the Illinois public universities have had significant enrollment issues. Add in competition from neighboring Big Ten schools plus Mizzou, Iowa State and schools across the country specifically targeting Chicago area students and it has been a tough cocktail for SIU, WIU and EIU. Even NIU has had enrollment issues despite its better location closer to Chicago, albeit not as dramatic as the other directional schools.

The 15-20 Illinois population decreased by 11% between 2010 and 2020.

Students who had applied to UIUC, with Illinois State as a backup might now be accept at UIUC. So Illinois State has to replace not only the declining population base, but those who were poached by UIUC. These students are those whose third choice was one of the directionals.

NIU is commutable from the western suburbs. If you live in Naperville or Aurora, and a parent loses a job, divorces, etc. you might discover that commuting to DeKalb is not such a hardship, particularly if you are more careful in selecting times and dates for classes, for example loading up everything on MWF.

And southern Illinois actually lost population (llinois as a whole was stagnant) so the dropoff in college age will be even more severe. It is people in their 20s and 30s who are most likely to move (away). If you are older and lose a job, you might find another job in the area, even for less pay, if your house is mostly paid off, and your family is nearby. Those who move away in their 20s and 30s produce all of the children so it accelerates a downward trend.

Then with greater economic uncertainty and high tuition, schools like SIU are competing with community colleges for freshmen and sophomores who might have previously started at SIU. If they do go on to a four-year university, they are going to be more conscious of location. They may want to continue to commute. And in any event, they only are at SIU for half as long.

I agree with much of this, although UIUC has actually been getting harder to get into (and in the case of the engineering program, it’s MUCH harder) compared to a decade ago. A huge difference compared to when I was applying to college in the 1990s is that UIC is now a much more common #2 choice on par with Illinois State (and ahead of the directional schools) for Chicago suburban students and that’s reflected in how fast UIC’s enrollment has grown even in the face of the overall decline in the pool of college aged students in Illinois. UIC’s undergrad enrollment has risen around 40% since 2013 - I think that school in particular is taking a lot of students (especially from the Chicago suburbs) that would have previously headed to the directional schools in prior generations.

To add for ISU's case they have made a conscience decision to keep a relatively constant enrollment for decades.