(02-15-2022 09:55 AM)AeroWolf Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 09:30 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 09:09 AM)AeroWolf Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 07:53 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 04:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Getting rid of 2 of Duke, WF, BC, and NC State would likely net the ACC $80 million a year because any two could be sent to another conference and the basic ACC contract would not change.

Duke and BC should be quite happy in the Big East.

Getting rid of schools requires a great deal of thought. The ACC is already at a disadvantage by being the smallest of the P5. This is one of the key factors behind our smaller tv revenue distributions.

I attached the 2 charts below just to provide some demographics data. The data represents the various schools with their projected conference members. Notre Dame is included in the ACC, SEC now has UT and OU, and the Big 12 has its new schools. While demographics not always everything it is still a good indicator. (Statistics compiled for the 2020-2021 year using univstats.com).

Those small ACC members are (in order) WF, ND, BC, Duke, Miami, Syracuse, Louisville.

I thought that the Big 12 at 10 was the smallest. Then the PAC with with 12 members.
The ACC has 14 5/8 members, The B1G and the SEC only have 14.


***note: the Big 12 will grow to 12 and the SEC will grow to 16.

I kept the charts simple. For our purposes regarding new and future revenue, we can consider ND an ACC(15) member, SEC(16) now has UT and OU, Big 12(12) has their new additions of BYU, central Florida, Cincinnati, and Houston while losing UT and OU. The BIG(14) and PAC(12) have not changed yet.

These charts are not the end-all-be-all, but it points toward the ACC's declining future unless major changes are made in ACC competitiveness. I think too many ACC schools are overestimating their individual brand's future value to realize the ACC may need to consider a more integrated-conference approach to student athletics and not simply be reactionarily thinking of themselves.

duke’s student body surely makes a lot of noise ...
#1 basketball program hands down ...
everybody wants to play them ...
guaranteed sellout ...
blockbuster ratings ...
atmospherics despite limited seating ...
cameron crazies ...
famous in their own right ...

PREMATURE DEMISE GREATLY EXAGGERATED

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 07:03 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 04:26 PM)green Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 03:40 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  How exactly is the ACC going to defend itself when it's sued for a few hundred million dollars? The courts don't recognize "I don't like the contract anymore so it's over as far as I'm concerned" as a defense. What other media company will be willing to do business with the ACC with such a lawsuit hanging over the conference?

Deal with the situation as it is, not as if you've been crowned emperor of the universe.

And by the way, let's recognize that renegotiating the media contracts today would only get the ACC so far. Football is king and ACC football isn't as attractive a product as SEC or B1G football. Period.

are you privy to said contract ...

JUST CURIOUS

This is an interesting question. ND signed a GOR so it cannot unilaterally withdraw from the ACC without losing tons of media money. But what if the ACC member schools vote to expel ND? I guess then the media right for ND would be returned to ND and ND is free to go anywhere, right? On what ground, ND will sue for a few hundred dollars? Expelling a member school is not anything illegal as far as I know. (VT fans should know this...)

Many would say expelling ND would be suicidal, and it might be. But I guess the finanfial impact would not be that significant at least until 2035 because I highly doubt the ESPN would reopen the ACC contract even without ND as the current contract is such a sweet deal for the ESPN. (Remember the BIG 12 didn’t really lose money when A&M, Neb, Colorado and Missorio left?)

I am not saying the ACC should / would expel ND. It’s certainly a lose-lose deal for both parties. But compared to 2013, ND’s choice would be limited as the new Big 12 would be certianly less attractive than the old Big 12. ND may consider rejoining the Big East, which is always their fall back option. Still, I would say ND will have a bigger damage than the ACC if the ACC triggers a nuclear option. Maybe this is something that Phillips should consider in future negotiation.

So, if what you say bolded above is true, then ND would be able to collect those damages in court if the ACC unilaterally breached those contracts.

failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Quote:The duty of someone who was wronged to make reasonable efforts to limit the resulting harm. A duty to mitigate can apply to the victim of a tort or a breach of contract. Neglecting a duty to mitigate precludes the recovery of damages that could have been avoided through reasonable efforts.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_to_mitigate

TRY ME ON FOR SIZE

NIL is a game changer.

Getting rid of arbitrary divisions is a huge plus for the TV schedule.

The ACC has over ten years to get better all around and the two points above will help that.

But let’s continue to panic for the next ten or so years.

(02-15-2022 10:43 AM)green Wrote:  

Quote:The duty of someone who was wronged to make reasonable efforts to limit the resulting harm. A duty to mitigate can apply to the victim of a tort or a breach of contract. Neglecting a duty to mitigate precludes the recovery of damages that could have been avoided through reasonable efforts.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_to_mitigate

TRY ME ON FOR SIZE

"Reasonable efforts", as I said above.

Yep, I learned that early in my first semester of law school in 1983.

(02-15-2022 11:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:43 AM)green Wrote:  

Quote:The duty of someone who was wronged to make reasonable efforts to limit the resulting harm. A duty to mitigate can apply to the victim of a tort or a breach of contract. Neglecting a duty to mitigate precludes the recovery of damages that could have been avoided through reasonable efforts.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_to_mitigate

TRY ME ON FOR SIZE

"Reasonable efforts", as I said above.

Yep, I learned that early in my first semester of law school in 1983.

YOU’RE ALRIGHT IN MY BOOK

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 07:03 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 04:26 PM)green Wrote:  are you privy to said contract ...

JUST CURIOUS

This is an interesting question. ND signed a GOR so it cannot unilaterally withdraw from the ACC without losing tons of media money. But what if the ACC member schools vote to expel ND? I guess then the media right for ND would be returned to ND and ND is free to go anywhere, right? On what ground, ND will sue for a few hundred dollars? Expelling a member school is not anything illegal as far as I know. (VT fans should know this...)

Many would say expelling ND would be suicidal, and it might be. But I guess the finanfial impact would not be that significant at least until 2035 because I highly doubt the ESPN would reopen the ACC contract even without ND as the current contract is such a sweet deal for the ESPN. (Remember the BIG 12 didn’t really lose money when A&M, Neb, Colorado and Missorio left?)

I am not saying the ACC should / would expel ND. It’s certainly a lose-lose deal for both parties. But compared to 2013, ND’s choice would be limited as the new Big 12 would be certianly less attractive than the old Big 12. ND may consider rejoining the Big East, which is always their fall back option. Still, I would say ND will have a bigger damage than the ACC if the ACC triggers a nuclear option. Maybe this is something that Phillips should consider in future negotiation.

So, if what you say bolded above is true, then ND would be able to collect those damages in court if the ACC unilaterally breached those contracts.

failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constituons and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

(02-15-2022 01:02 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 07:03 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is an interesting question. ND signed a GOR so it cannot unilaterally withdraw from the ACC without losing tons of media money. But what if the ACC member schools vote to expel ND? I guess then the media right for ND would be returned to ND and ND is free to go anywhere, right? On what ground, ND will sue for a few hundred dollars? Expelling a member school is not anything illegal as far as I know. (VT fans should know this...)

Many would say expelling ND would be suicidal, and it might be. But I guess the finanfial impact would not be that significant at least until 2035 because I highly doubt the ESPN would reopen the ACC contract even without ND as the current contract is such a sweet deal for the ESPN. (Remember the BIG 12 didn’t really lose money when A&M, Neb, Colorado and Missorio left?)

I am not saying the ACC should / would expel ND. It’s certainly a lose-lose deal for both parties. But compared to 2013, ND’s choice would be limited as the new Big 12 would be certianly less attractive than the old Big 12. ND may consider rejoining the Big East, which is always their fall back option. Still, I would say ND will have a bigger damage than the ACC if the ACC triggers a nuclear option. Maybe this is something that Phillips should consider in future negotiation.

So, if what you say bolded above is true, then ND would be able to collect those damages in court if the ACC unilaterally breached those contracts.

failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constitution and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

That's what I was thinking. Whether to expel Notre Dame from the ACC for other sports (why? aren't they the 2nd best team in MBB right now?) could be separate from 5 FB games/year (plus access to non-CFP bowls) contract.

I just don't see any advantage to doing that for the ACC. None whatsoever. All this discussion has really done is derail a perfectly good thread, IMO.

(02-15-2022 01:02 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 07:03 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is an interesting question. ND signed a GOR so it cannot unilaterally withdraw from the ACC without losing tons of media money. But what if the ACC member schools vote to expel ND? I guess then the media right for ND would be returned to ND and ND is free to go anywhere, right? On what ground, ND will sue for a few hundred dollars? Expelling a member school is not anything illegal as far as I know. (VT fans should know this...)

Many would say expelling ND would be suicidal, and it might be. But I guess the finanfial impact would not be that significant at least until 2035 because I highly doubt the ESPN would reopen the ACC contract even without ND as the current contract is such a sweet deal for the ESPN. (Remember the BIG 12 didn’t really lose money when A&M, Neb, Colorado and Missorio left?)

I am not saying the ACC should / would expel ND. It’s certainly a lose-lose deal for both parties. But compared to 2013, ND’s choice would be limited as the new Big 12 would be certianly less attractive than the old Big 12. ND may consider rejoining the Big East, which is always their fall back option. Still, I would say ND will have a bigger damage than the ACC if the ACC triggers a nuclear option. Maybe this is something that Phillips should consider in future negotiation.

So, if what you say bolded above is true, then ND would be able to collect those damages in court if the ACC unilaterally breached those contracts.

failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constituons and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

I call it breach of contract because ND and the ACC have entered into a series of contracts that define the relationship between them.

None of us have seen them but we know that they exist. Because ND football is not part of the ACC, all football and some other ND/ACC relationships are governed and regulated by them.

That may include the ACC Network full profit status by ND, the 5 game football obligation, eligibility of ND for ACC bowls, the obligation of ND football to join the ACC if it gives up independence, etc...

What do they say about the relationship, its unilateral termination by one party and the damages caused by that ? Do you know?

The ND/ACC relationship includes these contracts, so I don't think that the bylaws and constitution are the entire deal here.

Did ND negotiate the contracts to protect itself from unilateral ACC breaches of same? Are there any provisions that deal with ND's other sports being expelled by the ACC?

Most good lawyers anticipate these types of issues and deal with them by contract. ND is pretty well known as being pretty competent in negotiations.

Do the bylaws and constitution even deal with partial members or is partial membership set forth in the contracts between the parties ?

By the way, what are the terms, conditions and requirements to unilaterally kick out an ACC member in good standing ??

(02-15-2022 01:33 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:02 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  So, if what you say bolded above is true, then ND would be able to collect those damages in court if the ACC unilaterally breached those contracts.

failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constituons and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

I call it breach of contract because ND and the ACC have entered into a series of contracts that define the relationship between them.

None of us have seen them but we know that they exist. Because ND football is not part of the ACC, all football and some other ND/ACC relationships are governed and regulated by them.

That may include the ACC Network full profit status by ND, the 5 game football obligation, eligibility of ND for ACC bowls, the obligation of ND football to join the ACC if it gives up independence, etc...

What do they say about the relationship, its unilateral termination by one party and the damages caused by that ? Do you know?

The ND/ACC relationship includes these contracts, so I don't think that the bylaws and constitution are the entire deal here.

Did ND negotiate the contracts to protect itself from unilateral ACC breaches of same? Are there any provisions that deal with ND's other sports being expelled by the ACC?

Most good lawyers anticipate these types of issues and deal with them by contract. ND is pretty well known as being pretty competent in negotiations.

Do the bylaws and constitution even deal with partial members or is partial membership set forth in the contracts between the parties ?

By the way, what are the terms, conditions and requirements to unilaterally kick out an ACC member in good standing ??

I agree we don’t know the detail and there must be some contracts between ND and the ACC. I also want to say that this is a very unlikely scenario and I am not proposing the ACC should kick out ND.

Having said that, I believe ND is a full member for a constituion and bylaw purposes and therefore will be subject to the constituion and the bylaws. ND is just a full ACC memeber that doesn’t participate the football. Otherwise, how would any ND official hold any ACC position?

I don’t know the requirements of the expulsion. I presume there should be a vote and if enough schools vote for the expulsion, then I guess it can be done.

Each school signed a GOR. ND did as well (for non football portion). My guess is that if a school is expelled, the GOR becomes null and the media right returns to that school. It’s possible that there is a special provision for ND to receive some compesnation in case of expulsion but I suspect that the GOR language is same for all ACC member schools and there is no such special compensation deal for ND.

In other words, it’s likely that a member school cannot unilaterally withdraw from a conference without losing the media right but a conference can unilaterally expel its member school without a significant consequence. Sounds unfair but isn’t it exactly why you and some ND fans hate the idea of belonging to a conference?

(02-15-2022 02:09 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:33 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:02 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 08:57 AM)green Wrote:  failure to mitigate damages by the aggrieved party should be considered ...

CONTRACTS 101 FOR NON LAWYERS

Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constituons and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

I call it breach of contract because ND and the ACC have entered into a series of contracts that define the relationship between them.

None of us have seen them but we know that they exist. Because ND football is not part of the ACC, all football and some other ND/ACC relationships are governed and regulated by them.

That may include the ACC Network full profit status by ND, the 5 game football obligation, eligibility of ND for ACC bowls, the obligation of ND football to join the ACC if it gives up independence, etc...

What do they say about the relationship, its unilateral termination by one party and the damages caused by that ? Do you know?

The ND/ACC relationship includes these contracts, so I don't think that the bylaws and constitution are the entire deal here.

Did ND negotiate the contracts to protect itself from unilateral ACC breaches of same? Are there any provisions that deal with ND's other sports being expelled by the ACC?

Most good lawyers anticipate these types of issues and deal with them by contract. ND is pretty well known as being pretty competent in negotiations.

Do the bylaws and constitution even deal with partial members or is partial membership set forth in the contracts between the parties ?

By the way, what are the terms, conditions and requirements to unilaterally kick out an ACC member in good standing ??

I agree we don’t know the detail and there must be some contracts between ND and the ACC. I also want to say that this is a very unlikely scenario and I am not proposing the ACC should kick out ND.

Having said that, I believe ND is a full member for a constituion and bylaw purposes and therefore will be subject to the constituion and the bylaws. ND is just a full ACC memeber that doesn’t participate the football. Otherwise, how would any ND official hold any ACC position?

I don’t know the requirements of the expulsion. I presume there should be a vote and if enough schools vote for the expulsion, then I guess it can be done.

Each school signed a GOR. ND did as well (for non football portion). My guess is that if a school is expelled, the GOR becomes null and the media right returns to that school. It’s possible that there is a special provision for ND to receive some compesnation in case of expulsion but I suspect that the GOR language is same for all ACC member schools and there is no such special compensation deal for ND.

In other words, it’s likely that a member school cannot unilaterally withdraw from a conference without losing the media right but a conference can unilaterally expel its member school without a significant consequence. Sounds unfair but isn’t it exactly why you and some ND fans hate the idea of belonging to a conference?

I am not so sure that, in ND's case (because of contractual obligations, terms and conditions) that it is as "likely" as you think.

But, we have both wasted enough time on this extremely unlikely possibility.

(02-15-2022 02:21 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:09 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:33 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:02 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:37 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Of course, but given that football isn't included in the current ACC contract, that would leave out full membership in the Big Ten as a mitigation option.

So, what would be the difference in damages should ND mitigate by, say, joining the Big East?

I don't know, but the Big East doesn't have a counterpart to the ACC Network, nor bowl game tie-ins, and doesn't pay as much to its members as ND gets as a partial ACC member.

So, it would just then be a calculation of damages after reasonable mitigation efforts by ND.

Sure, the damage is real for ND and sure it will be because of the ACC’s action. But not all damages should be compensated. If an employee gets fired becuase a company is downsizing, should the employee receive all the lost future benefit? Absolutely not.

ND can definitely file a suit but I am not sure ND can get a lot of money. And why do you call it a breach of contract? Expelling is different from a breach of a contract. Isn’t expelling a member governed by the ACC constituons and bylaws? My guess is that if ND were expelled, the media right would be returned to ND according to the contract between ND and the ACC. Technically even the five game deal between ND and the ACC may continue depending on the language of the contract. So I don’t really see a breach of contract here.

I call it breach of contract because ND and the ACC have entered into a series of contracts that define the relationship between them.

None of us have seen them but we know that they exist. Because ND football is not part of the ACC, all football and some other ND/ACC relationships are governed and regulated by them.

That may include the ACC Network full profit status by ND, the 5 game football obligation, eligibility of ND for ACC bowls, the obligation of ND football to join the ACC if it gives up independence, etc...

What do they say about the relationship, its unilateral termination by one party and the damages caused by that ? Do you know?

The ND/ACC relationship includes these contracts, so I don't think that the bylaws and constitution are the entire deal here.

Did ND negotiate the contracts to protect itself from unilateral ACC breaches of same? Are there any provisions that deal with ND's other sports being expelled by the ACC?

Most good lawyers anticipate these types of issues and deal with them by contract. ND is pretty well known as being pretty competent in negotiations.

Do the bylaws and constitution even deal with partial members or is partial membership set forth in the contracts between the parties ?

By the way, what are the terms, conditions and requirements to unilaterally kick out an ACC member in good standing ??

I agree we don’t know the detail and there must be some contracts between ND and the ACC. I also want to say that this is a very unlikely scenario and I am not proposing the ACC should kick out ND.

Having said that, I believe ND is a full member for a constituion and bylaw purposes and therefore will be subject to the constituion and the bylaws. ND is just a full ACC memeber that doesn’t participate the football. Otherwise, how would any ND official hold any ACC position?

I don’t know the requirements of the expulsion. I presume there should be a vote and if enough schools vote for the expulsion, then I guess it can be done.

Each school signed a GOR. ND did as well (for non football portion). My guess is that if a school is expelled, the GOR becomes null and the media right returns to that school. It’s possible that there is a special provision for ND to receive some compesnation in case of expulsion but I suspect that the GOR language is same for all ACC member schools and there is no such special compensation deal for ND.

In other words, it’s likely that a member school cannot unilaterally withdraw from a conference without losing the media right but a conference can unilaterally expel its member school without a significant consequence. Sounds unfair but isn’t it exactly why you and some ND fans hate the idea of belonging to a conference?

I am not so sure that, in ND's case (because of contractual obligations, terms and conditions) that it is as "likely" as you think.

But, we have both wasted enough time on this extremely unlikely possibility.

a possibility nonetheless ...

IN ONE’S BACK POCKET

(02-15-2022 11:22 AM)esayem Wrote:  NIL is a game changer.

Getting rid of arbitrary divisions is a huge plus for the TV schedule.

The ACC has over ten years to get better all around and the two points above will help that.

But let’s continue to panic for the next ten or so years.

https://twitter.com/davidubben/status/14...1354519559

BIG BOY TOYS

(02-15-2022 03:43 PM)green Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 11:22 AM)esayem Wrote:  NIL is a game changer.

Getting rid of arbitrary divisions is a huge plus for the TV schedule.

The ACC has over ten years to get better all around and the two points above will help that.

But let’s continue to panic for the next ten or so years.

https://twitter.com/davidubben/status/14...1354519559

BIG BOY TOYS

Texas A&M's #1 recruiting class cost them $30 mil in NIL this year. $10 mil is already way behind the curve.

Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

The term "swindle" in the South is also used interchangeably with the phrase "pig in a poke". A poke is a bag or sack, a pig in that poke is referencing meat sold by a butcher where the meat is wrapped and you can't tell if its spoiled. (When it's really spoiled in the South, it is not just spoiled but spurrled) Don't eat spurrled meat.

(02-15-2022 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

So you're saying it only takes 3 votes to keep a team? In that case, can ANY team ever be expelled? I doubt it.

(02-15-2022 10:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

So you're saying it only takes 3 votes to keep a team? In that case, can ANY team ever be expelled? I doubt it.

It's essentially impossible to expel a school, which is why smart people don't waste their time talking about expelling schools. Conferences need a high degree of internal cohesion to function effectively. You can't have that cohesion if members have to worry about being expelled. When that cohesion dissipates, conferences fall apart. See the old Big East. For that matter, see the old, old Southern Conference before the SEC and ACC schools left.

(02-16-2022 08:58 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

So you're saying it only takes 3 votes to keep a team? In that case, can ANY team ever be expelled? I doubt it.

It's essentially impossible to expel a school, which is why smart people don't waste their time talking about expelling schools. Conferences need a high degree of internal cohesion to function effectively. You can't have that cohesion if members have to worry about being expelled. When that cohesion dissipates, conferences fall apart. See the old Big East. For that matter, see the old, old Southern Conference before the SEC and ACC schools left.

https://twitter.com/SpokesmanClark/statu...3250330626

ok smarty pants ...
they can stay as is ...
but we terminate our football dalliance due to future commitments ...
sayonara scheduling alliance & bowl arrangement ...
you’re on your own ...
voila ...
said contract materially altered ...
with renegotiation in mind ...

LET ME CHECK MY CALENDAR

(02-15-2022 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

The term "swindle" in the South is also used interchangeably with the phrase "pig in a poke". A poke is a bag or sack, a pig in that poke is referencing meat sold by a butcher where the meat is wrapped and you can't tell if its spoiled. (When it's really spoiled in the South, it is not just spoiled but spurrled) Don't eat spurrled meat.

What does the pork story mean? Sorry this foreigner doesn’t get it.

Expelling ND is extremely unlikely at this point. But let’s say it’s year 2031 or 2032 and the ACC is looking to beef up its media content for the next media deal. Should the ACC be just happy with the current five game arrangement with ND or should it try to renegotiate the term?

I would say what the ACC can request at that point is to combine the ND’s football media right in the ACC media package and every member gets the same media payout while ND maintains its football schedule independence. This would really increase the value of the ACC media content. But, of course, ND would prefer the status quo.

However, what if the ACC takes a hardline and makes an implicit threat? I don’t know how the college sports landscape would change by then but assuming no major changes, ND’s choice would be: 1) giving up the football independence and joining the BIG or the SEC in full, 2) joining the Big East for non football and maintain the football independence, 3) joining the new B12 for a similar deal as the current ACC deal, or 4) accepting the ACC request. This might be a hard decision, but I would say the ACC option would be still more attractive than other options.

Now what if ND doesn’t budge? Would Phillips and the ACC presidents be really willing to pull the trigger in year 2031?

If the answer is yes, then why not now? The downside is relatively low now because the ACC is stuck in the long term deal anyway and ND’s NBC contract expires in 2025. Seems like not a bad timing for the ACC to make a do or die move.

(02-16-2022 10:17 AM)green Wrote:  

(02-16-2022 08:58 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Where did this stupid **** about ND being kicked out of the ACC come from?

It's assanine on it's face. It takes 12 votes to kick out ND. No reason is needed. ND would not likely incur damages that would not be immediately recoverable. Moreover, what ND traded was the shot at jackpots versus long term stability.

So you're saying it only takes 3 votes to keep a team? In that case, can ANY team ever be expelled? I doubt it.

It's essentially impossible to expel a school, which is why smart people don't waste their time talking about expelling schools. Conferences need a high degree of internal cohesion to function effectively. You can't have that cohesion if members have to worry about being expelled. When that cohesion dissipates, conferences fall apart. See the old Big East. For that matter, see the old, old Southern Conference before the SEC and ACC schools left.

https://twitter.com/SpokesmanClark/statu...3250330626

ok smarty pants ...
they can stay as is ...
but we terminate our football dalliance due to future commitments ...
sayonara scheduling alliance & bowl arrangement ...
you’re on your own ...
voila ...
said contract materially altered ...
with renegotiation in mind ...

LET ME CHECK MY CALENDAR