Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

I think you could get MWC on board as well. AAC does not have the same pull as three of their members joining the Big 12.

(01-19-2022 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

And then what?

Doesn't matter which conferences are in this hypothetical breakaway group. The group would have to have its own rules, and any rules that restrict athletes, coaches, etc. within the group would have the same antitrust-type problems that the NCAA has. The recent Supreme Court decision would apply to any cartel, not only the one that calls itself "NCAA".

Also, good luck getting all those conferences to agree on how to split the money from their media deals. They wouldn't agree to everyone getting an equal share. The disagreement about how to divide the money would be enough to prevent the group from making joint media deals.

(01-19-2022 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

I get the conceptual appeal and threat of those 5 leagues jointly seceding from the NCAA and creating their own entity replacement to administer basketball and football (the latter excluding the Big East). What I don’t think would work would be trying to bundle the Tier 3 media rights to all 5 of those entities and then sell them to one steaming outfit.

First, control of the Tier 3 rights may influence who bids on each league’s individual Tier 1 & 2 rights. Not sure on other P5s, but if T3 rights are also part of their main media deals that could make cordoning those off and selling them separately might be a tough sell. Plus, how would ND play into that? The ACC for example, gave away T3 rights to get the ACC Network off the ground. Would ESPN renew a primary media deal with the ACC in 2036 without those rights? And if this can’t happen until 2036, is this really a threat to the SEC?

Second, selling a package of all 5 league’s T3 rights to one vendor could result in a lower per-league value than if they parceled out the rights to multiple bidders. It would be ironic for the non-SEC leagues to oppose CFP expansion without letting it hit the open market and potentially selling the rights to multiple broadcasters, like the NCAA does with Turner and CBS, only to do the opposite for their T3 rights.

(01-19-2022 07:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Doesn't matter which conferences are in this hypothetical breakaway group. The group would have to have its own rules, and any rules that restrict athletes, coaches, etc. within the group would have the same antitrust-type problems that the NCAA has. The recent Supreme Court decision would apply to any cartel, not only the one that calls itself "NCAA".

Also, good luck getting all those conferences to agree on how to split the money from their media deals. They wouldn't agree to everyone getting an equal share. The disagreement about how to divide the money would be enough to prevent the group from making joint media deals.

This is a good point. IMO, too many around here view "The NCAA" as some kind of alien, illegal entity that has been grafted on to college athletics, and that the schools and conferences need to be "freed" from and then everything will be OK in college athletics.

Truth is, the NCAA is a creation of the schools and conferences, and they can alter its rules any time they want.

And that also applies as you say to any "P5 breakaway" or other such entity: Any such entity will have to have rules as well. It will have to recreate the NCAA in some form or another in order for there to be a governance structure that spans all the schools and conferences. And courts aren't going to give this new entity a break just because it's not called "The NCAA".

The Big Ten wouldn't join this crap one bit. They're making money hand over fist and aren't like the others at all. Getting set to do another TV contract which will get them even more money.

Some folks are so anti-SEC that they think Big Ten will go on with whatever ACC and Pac 12- their poor cousins- will do. I don't think so at all. Big Ten would be more tied with the SEC when all came down than the others.

(01-19-2022 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

I wonder why the top-revenue conferences, particularly the B1G, would want to do this. Why would the B1G, which gets more media than all of those in the proposed bundle, want to join it? Their media revenue would likely decline.

Especially without a compelling reason, and I don't think "wrestling control of basketball revenue from ESPN" is a compelling reason, especially for the B1G, as the B1G has already done a very good job of keeping its various rights divided up among multiple networks.

Maybe I am skeptical because I don't think ESPN is harmful to college athletics at all?

I love ESPN, they are IMO the best thing that ever happened to college athletics. As a fan, they broadcast a boatload of games, hoops and football, with high production values, etc.

I remember the days without ESPN, and when ESPN was small. These days are way, way better, IMO.

(01-20-2022 08:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The Big Ten wouldn't join this crap one bit. They're making money hand over fist and aren't like the others at all. Getting set to do another TV contract which will get them even more money.

Some folks are so anti-SEC that they think Big Ten will go on with whatever ACC and Pac 12- their poor cousins- will do. I don't think so at all. Big Ten would be more tied with the SEC when all came down than the others.

This is a good point.

Everyone needs a reminder of this here: the Big Ten has been making more money than the SEC for the past 15 years and that may even *still* be the case after Texas and Oklahoma join (as the Big Ten is getting a new TV deal in a couple of years).

In fact, the main reason why that’s the case is that the Big Ten has monetized its tier 3 rights better than anyone via the BTN. Simply put, the BTN is way more lucrative for the Big Ten than the SECN is for the SEC (as the Big Ten gets the financial profit benefit as a partial owner on top of receiving their rights fees).

Now, whether this will continue to be the case with cord cutting is an open question. Even then, though, there is absolutely and positively ZERO reason for the Big Ten to ever consider what the OP has suggested. The Big Ten is the league that has the most valuable tier 3 rights of them all (as their lower-tier basketball games plus and men’s hockey generate tier 2 level revenue). They wouldn’t even think of bundling with another league.

(01-19-2022 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

Currently, the Alliance (B1G, PAC and ACC) can’t manage CFP expansion decisions. Sankey and ESPN won the public relations war and are poised for any challenge to their interests.

A breakaway from the NCAA would be much more complex. You need more partners (conferences and media), strategic decisions, good communications and solid execution. The NCAA and hundreds of schools, that all lose revenues from a breakaway, would fight the move. Not sure that the skill set for this action exists.

If there is a breakaway, it’s because the upper tier schools won’t achieve the flexibility to spend more on athletes from the NCAA. Schools in all the Autonomous conferences share the same problem. Actually, the need for autonomy is more acute in the SEC because they have more high revenue schools. IMO…thoughts of an SEC-led breakaway is just hangover-hubris resulting from the OUT realignment. Even a P2 (SEC & B1G) breakaway would be unlikely…too many missing markets and brands; they would have to put all their focus on football. A financial windfall from a breakaway could exist in basketball, but too many key brands are outside the P2. Regardless, upper tier universities have much bigger visions. At a minimum, the P4 all benefit from a joint approach (and the P4 will be better off if the B12 is included).

(01-20-2022 08:38 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-19-2022 07:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Doesn't matter which conferences are in this hypothetical breakaway group. The group would have to have its own rules, and any rules that restrict athletes, coaches, etc. within the group would have the same antitrust-type problems that the NCAA has. The recent Supreme Court decision would apply to any cartel, not only the one that calls itself "NCAA".

Also, good luck getting all those conferences to agree on how to split the money from their media deals. They wouldn't agree to everyone getting an equal share. The disagreement about how to divide the money would be enough to prevent the group from making joint media deals.

This is a good point. IMO, too many around here view "The NCAA" as some kind of alien, illegal entity that has been grafted on to college athletics, and that the schools and conferences need to be "freed" from and then everything will be OK in college athletics.

Truth is, the NCAA is a creation of the schools and conferences, and they can alter its rules any time they want.

And that also applies as you say to any "P5 breakaway" or other such entity: Any such entity will have to have rules as well. It will have to recreate the NCAA in some form or another in order for there to be a governance structure that spans all the schools and conferences. And courts aren't going to give this new entity a break just because it's not called "The NCAA".

People keep missing that - the NCAA is a creation of the Universities, run by the University Presidents, and takes direction from the Universities. The P5 have a great level of autonomy, but will still be constrained by the Court Rulings no matter what they call themselves.

(01-20-2022 11:30 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-20-2022 08:38 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-19-2022 07:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Doesn't matter which conferences are in this hypothetical breakaway group. The group would have to have its own rules, and any rules that restrict athletes, coaches, etc. within the group would have the same antitrust-type problems that the NCAA has. The recent Supreme Court decision would apply to any cartel, not only the one that calls itself "NCAA".

Also, good luck getting all those conferences to agree on how to split the money from their media deals. They wouldn't agree to everyone getting an equal share. The disagreement about how to divide the money would be enough to prevent the group from making joint media deals.

This is a good point. IMO, too many around here view "The NCAA" as some kind of alien, illegal entity that has been grafted on to college athletics, and that the schools and conferences need to be "freed" from and then everything will be OK in college athletics.

Truth is, the NCAA is a creation of the schools and conferences, and they can alter its rules any time they want.

And that also applies as you say to any "P5 breakaway" or other such entity: Any such entity will have to have rules as well. It will have to recreate the NCAA in some form or another in order for there to be a governance structure that spans all the schools and conferences. And courts aren't going to give this new entity a break just because it's not called "The NCAA".

People keep missing that - the NCAA is a creation of the Universities, run by the University Presidents, and takes direction from the Universities. The P5 have a great level of autonomy, but will still be constrained by the Court Rulings no matter what they call themselves.

Yes, these are good points. That's why I've been much more skeptical about a full breakaway from the NCAA from a governance perspective. It's one thing to state that the money split between the conferences is an issue, but the overall governance structure of the NCAA is something that isn't easily replicated.

Granted, it goes back to my point in another thread: the Big Ten still has more off-the-field power (not just revenue, but also power in academia, key power centers like NYC/DC, the Pac-12/Rose Bowl relationship, and within the NCAA itself) compared to the SEC despite the fact that the SEC has had more on-the-field power.

As a result, it makes sense that the Big Ten is more of an institutionalist compared to the SEC. The Big Ten's relative power in college sports in stronger within the current NCAA structure since that league can credibly talk to, say, the Ivy League on governance matters just as much as it can talk to the rest of the P5. In contrast, a P5 breakaway changes that dynamic greatly - stripping away the plebeians of college sports is more advantageous to the SEC compared to the Big Ten because the Big Ten has historically and institutionally had a lot more influence over those plebeians. Even the physical location of the NCAA headquarters in Indianapolis - right in the middle of the Big Ten footprint - is symbolic of the outsized Big Ten influence on that institution. Imagine if the NCAA headquarters were in Birmingham (or even Atlanta) instead. Note that the CFP headquarters are in Dallas.

That's why we always seem to see a lot more saber-rattling from the SEC about its complaints about the NCAA, whereas it pretty much never happens from the Big Ten.

(01-19-2022 07:17 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(01-19-2022 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Something JR mentioned in another thread sparked an idea in the back of my mind and it was regarding wrangling control of basketball revenues away from ESPN.

Here’s my idea:

The Big 10, ACC, PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East announce their intent to withdraw from the NCAA and create their own entity that, upon fulfillment of existing media deals, will bundle its Tier 3 rights into a new streaming platform (or affiliate with an existing one).

If they act jointly, and first, the SEC will need to likely join too or operate completely independently of both the alliance and the NCAA. The SEC ultimately comes to the table but doesn’t have the same kind of pull and influence that they seem to have now with the CFP.

We get an NCAA free future and at the same time avoid letting the SEC completely dominate the course of events and building a single entity super conference

And then what?

Create a regulating body to oversee athletics that everyone would eventually hate in the same way they do the NCAA now.

(01-20-2022 08:38 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-19-2022 07:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Doesn't matter which conferences are in this hypothetical breakaway group. The group would have to have its own rules, and any rules that restrict athletes, coaches, etc. within the group would have the same antitrust-type problems that the NCAA has. The recent Supreme Court decision would apply to any cartel, not only the one that calls itself "NCAA".

Also, good luck getting all those conferences to agree on how to split the money from their media deals. They wouldn't agree to everyone getting an equal share. The disagreement about how to divide the money would be enough to prevent the group from making joint media deals.

This is a good point. IMO, too many around here view "The NCAA" as some kind of alien, illegal entity that has been grafted on to college athletics, and that the schools and conferences need to be "freed" from and then everything will be OK in college athletics.

Truth is, the NCAA is a creation of the schools and conferences, and they can alter its rules any time they want.

And that also applies as you say to any "P5 breakaway" or other such entity: Any such entity will have to have rules as well. It will have to recreate the NCAA in some form or another in order for there to be a governance structure that spans all the schools and conferences. And courts aren't going to give this new entity a break just because it's not called "The NCAA".

BS! It started out to assist and grew into a bureaucratic monolith with too much power and filching the revenue to protect itself. I find it amusing that it is only defended on message boards by academics who are as resistant to change as bricks. And no, it's a canard that it has to be replaced. In a pay for play, taxable world, oversight can be contracted out and tasked with finite purposes and each conference, in compliance with law, can set their own priorities and payouts.

Only inside the box heads can't think past a bureaucracy. For pay & for profit changes everything about college athletics. And in that paradigm shift it makes the NCAA obsolete.