"dispensationalism"

Big word lol.

A lot of Christians really have no idea what it means because their church rarely talks about it unless your church is really serious about deep Bible study.

Some will vehemently say they reject dispensationalsim without even realizing they actually do believe in basic dispensations. If you believe there is a divide between the OT and the NT in how God deals with man then you believe in dispensations. Most churches and denominations fall under that category, even if they never talk about it or claim they reject it.

A simplified way to see it is dispensations are a way God divides periods of time in the Bible and how He deals with man in each. For example the OT law is one dispensation, the church age is another, the tribulation is a dispensation, so is the coming 1000 year kingdom of Jesus on earth. The OT prophets, Jesus and the Apostles all talk about events in these different periods, and if you don't recognize the divide and differences between them you will end up all mixed up and much of the Bible will be impossibly confusing. Hence the term "rightly dividing" scripture as Paul wrote. Otherwise you will end up trying to fit something Jesus said about Israel (in the tribulation or the 1000 year reign) into the church age and be totally confused about what is being said.

Keep in mind also when we talk about "literalism" we are not saying there are not parables or symbology in the Bible. Quite the opposite. What we are talking about is not taking entire books and entire portions of the bible and turning them into spiritual symbolism with no literal application. That is actually a cop out and excuse to ignore huge sections of the Bible (particularity the OT prophets and Revelation) and never deal with them. Scripture does not support that approach. In fact the NT resoundingly teaches the total opposite of that based on the 300+ prophecies of the first coming of Jesus which were fulfilled literally, not figuratively. Jesus has 2 advents, and the first was very literal in its fulfillment of scripture.

Here is a quick explanation from the people at Gotquestions.org

This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

(01-19-2022 09:26 AM)Crayton Wrote:  This was a good, concise video and honestly clearer than other descriptions I've heard.

I probably favor Covenant Theology due to the unity of God's people (being largely synonymous with BOTH Israel and the Church, or at least the believing remnant/core of each). I do respect Dispensationalism because it was developed out of careful attention to scripture. The literalism sometimes goes too far, but that is in every way preferable to the alternative. There can also be excesses in modern politics (perhaps the "hyper" version) when Christians un-critically support the modern state of Israel.

That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism recognizes that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. This applies to people mostly not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament. Modern Israel had to be regathered and reborn as nation to set the table for what God and Jesus told us would happen to them in the great tribulation. Both Jesus and the OT prophets made clear that Israel would be back in the land and a nation again (still in sin, still separated from Christ and the Father) when the tribulation and the antichrists kingdom come about. Its these final horrific events and last war on the Holy Land that will finally bring them to accept Jesus and come under the New Covenant. As Christ said, its going to be the worst time that ever was and ever will be again though.



Its also a misunderstanding about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.


Maybe that will begin to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

Romans 11:25 & 28

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  That is the most common and basic misunderstanding of all concerning this issue and its illustrates the point that most people who reject it do not yet understand what and why they reject it. They end up rejecting it on a false premise and misunderstanding.

Basic dispensatinalism says that both Jew and Gentile WHO ACCEPT CHRIST are one body, not two separate groups. There is no separation at all between them, they are all one group and all God's people.

But that is the very reason people will reject it, they think we are saying the complete opposite of that. No, that is not what is being said at all.

When we talk about the differences between the Church and Israel and God's fulfillment of his promises to Israel in prophecy we are not talking about events that happen in the church age. We are talking about events that happen AFTER the church age ends and in the Kingdom age (millennial reign).

None of this applies to people (Jew or Gentile) in Christ living in the church age. We are one body in Christ and that is our ETERNAL state in New Jerusalem in Heaven. This applies to people not yet born who will be living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth following the return of Christ.

The church age is not the eternal state, it has a very definitive end point in the Bible. And many events follow it according to scripture. The latter half of Revelation is one obvious example but there are countless entire chapters on this in the Old Testament.

Maybe that will being to help clarify some of this. Its ALWAYS the same basic misunderstandings that divide some people on this. When people begin to understand what is being said on this and then go back to fact check it in scripture, they tend to get in line with it very quickly because its undeniable in scripture. To deny it means you have to basically tear entire sections out of your bible and flush then down the drain because they are meaningless and massively contradictory. This perfectly clarifies and brings to life all those sections of the Bible people tend to avoid at all costs and never open and read.

This does help. I now recall the connection to Revelation and how things are wrapped up differently in the millennial age. When someone "explained" it to me many years ago the thought that stuck in my head was that a Jew living in 40 BC could be saved but a Jew living in 40 AD had to be a convert to Christianity, irrespective of the logistical hurdles of getting the news of Jesus Christ to that Jew. The emphasis on all being one body helps.

(01-19-2022 06:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Its also a total misunderstand about the support for modern Israel. It has nothing to do with being critical or not being critical of modern Israel. Modern Israel is not saved, they have rejected Christ and rejected God and are in fact extremely wicked in His eyes. They cannot save themselves by rebuilding a temple and getting back to sacrifices under the OT law (through the NT clearly says they will try in the tribulation). Their one and only path to redemption is through Jesus Christ alone.

But scripture says that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them, and though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still beloved for the Fathers sake.

Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

(01-20-2022 07:04 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Here I am a bit out of my depth. To equate the Modern Jewish state to David or Herod's kingdoms seems a stretch. Is it whichever Jewish authority controls Jerusalem who is allowed to inherit this blessing? I would expect "Israel" to refer to the Jewish people who pursue God rather than a nation-state, whether ancient or modern.

Its the people, not the government. That has really been the case even back in Davids time, though in David and Solomon's time that was the peak of ancient Israel.

Israel was turnng from God and falling away for almost 1000 years before Christ finally came. Even when the northern and southern kingdoms were carried away, the people were still "Israel" according to God in the OT. And we see Paul makes that clear its still the case throughout the NT.

So today's situation is really not much different in this context, its just 2000 years later. There is a remnant of the physical seed of Abraham (not the spiritual like those in Christ) that are scattered throughout in Israel and still partially scattered around the globe. We are not talking about every person on earth who claims to be a Jew (not all are), but God knows who is and isn't.

Quite simply for the end time prophecies to be fulfilled, there had to be a national rebirth of Israel in the Holy Land, STILL in sin and still rejecting Jesus. All the OT prophets, Jesus AND Revelation make clear there is a nation of Israel in the Holy Land when the final tribulation begins. There has to be a Temple rebuild with them trying to follow the OT law and sacrifices again, which God no longer recognizes. But because of their spiritual blindness and separation from Christ they do not yet realize this. But they will during the tribulation when the antichrist/beast sits in the most holy place in the temple and declares himself to be God. At that point many of the Jews will react in horror and turn against him, and he will bring a league of nations to Israel to destroy them once and for all. Its at this point, in their darkest hour, when a sizable remnant will finally turn to Christ en mass.

This is the moment Jesus refereed to in Matt 23:37-39 and Luke 13:35 where He says they will see Him no more until they acknowledge their offense and call on Him. We also see that in Hosea 5:14-15. Its at this point that He is finally about to return to Israel in person.

I could not possible list all the verses that tell us all this, they are scattered in bits and pieces throughout the entire Bible in the OT prophets, the Gospels, Paul's letters and Revelation. Some of the more concentrated areas are in Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39 and Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the end times for example. But there are countless other bits and pieces scattered throughout.

Check out Ezekiel 39:21-29 following the end of the tribulation and the Gog-Magog war where God says they have finally returned to Him and they will never turn form Him again and He will never turn His face form them again from that moment onward.

Its one of those dusty corners of the Bible people tend to never read and completely ignore. Yet its clearly one of the key passages and moments of the entire Bible.

Think of the different passages like Ezekiel 39, Zechariah 14 or Revelation 19 as different "camera angles" of the same event. Each "camera angle" is from a unique perspective and focuses on a unique aspect of the same event. Much like a movie, when you look at them all together you see the complete picture.

The OT passages are "shown" from the perspective of Israel, Revelation is shown from the perspective of church age Christians because its the Christians job to get this message and warning out to the Jews and the rest of the world before the time comes. So when it does come they will know this was predicted in the Bible and its actually happening before their eyes.

I posted this 2 and a half years ago but its seems more important now than ever with the war Israel continuing to escalate.

If you follow Christian media on prophetic events you probably see a lot of talk now about the Gog Magog war of Russia/Iran/Turkey and a few other northern Africa Muslim nations (Sudan, Lybia, etc) attacking Israel. But realize what is happening now is the lead up for the antichrist figure to step in and confirm some historical peace deal FIRST. Things have to come to a full boil first for him to step in and capture the whole worlds imagination with his ability to bring peace to the Middle east, an unthinkable and seeming impossible act that could only be done by God.

The actual Gog-Magog war appears to be when the AC breaks this 7 year treaty himself at the halfway mark and begins the invasion of Israel.

But for the first time since these prophetic texts were written 2600 years ago, Israel is a self governing nation again and all these countries are magically aligning together against them at once just as written 2600 years ago. And right when the text predicted (about 2000 years after Christ) , in the latter years just before the end.

You would think this would be a serious eye opener for a lot of secular non believers, but many of them are just blinded from any truth by their sin and stony hearts. Lord knows I was for 40 years too.

But its also true there are a lot of people coming to Christ now for the first time because they see the events shaping up in the world right now. They see the growing darkness, the globalists agenda, the coming nwo, the coming mark of the beast and one world currency, they see the events aligning around Israel just as written thousands of years ago in the Bible. ALL THESE EVENTS CONVERGING ALL AT ONCE. Many preachers and prophecy teachers are saying across the board this is the most they have ever seen people talk and ask about these things in the Bible. And many becoming new Christians because of what they see happening in the world now from the Olympics to the elections chaos everywhere to the unrest and riots across Europe, the events of COVID and global lockdowns, the obvious gaslighting by the global media, the obvious desire and lurch for a one world government, etc.

For those with to eyes with see, these are AMAZING times we are in and the time seems very short now. How long until he globalists have this thing secured? We're teetering on the edge now and likely one world wide economic meltdown from it happening.

I cant stress this thread enough fellas, this is absolutely key to understanding and rightly dividing your Bible.

Without understanding basic dispensations you are going to be totally confused about entire books and entire sections of the Bible. And that includes many words and parables of Jesus as well.

People who reject the idea of basic dispensations, even so called scholars, are totally lost and unable to explain massive portions of the Bible because its inexplicable without this basic understanding. I have studied, discussed and debated this topic with countless people, so this is something I have a ton of experience with.

When people say they reject dispensations and you press them to explain what entire chapters and books like Ezekiel 36-39, 40-48, Zechariah 10-14, The book of Joel, the book of Zephaniah, Jeremiah 30-33, virtually the entire book of Isaiah and all the OT propehts are talking about concerning Israel and the future, they will all say "I don't know what it means, the only thing I do know is it doesn't mean what it says. And I don't want to talk about it anymore."

That is practically word for word what every person will say when pressed on this who rejects basic dispensations. Even though every single book of the Bible says the exact same thing about Israel in the latter days over and over again, they reject all of it and have no explanation as to what it means.

People who reject this, even ministers and scholars, just openly reject and ignore massive portions of the Bible. They won't teach for them, they won't talk about them, they won't discuss them at all. Why? Because they are totally inexplicable under their theology.