(01-12-2022 11:31 AM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 11:22 AM)YNot Wrote:  The new Big 12 will have no football Kings.

But, *rivalry* games and proximate schools compete for interest, attendance, and eyeballs.

This would add five true rivalry games to the Big 12 lineup:

WVU-Pitt
Cincy-Pitt
Cincy-Louisville
Cincy-Memphis
Louisville-Memphis

Plus driving distance games WVU-Cincy, WVU-Louisville, and Pitt-Louisville. The eastern branch would give the Big 12 a solid group of games from which to pick for the 12pm ET kickoff...in addition to UCF's home inventory.

Interestingly, this would essentially lay a Big 12 eastern branch right along the B1G-SEC border. The move would also push ACC football out of the Midwest fringes and essentially back into a smaller regional conference.

And, the Big 12 isn't stuck like the ACC with a lackluster TV deal for the next 15 years.

Big 12 scheduling divisions:
EAST: Pitt, WVU, Cincy, Louisville, Memphis
NORTH: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, BYU
SOUTH: Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, Houston, UCF

4-2-2 schedule would guarantee everyone a game in Texas 4 out of 5 years.

BYU and UCF are geographic outliers, but they are programs that can hold their own with OOC rivalries and other unique factors.

The expanded new Big 12 basketball would be ridiculous.

Interesting idea but will never happen.

Yup. I like the idea---but even if you forget all the other prestige factors that make it unlikely----zero chance it happens with that ACC GOR in place. I doubt the SEC or Big10 could poach the ACC with over a decade left on that GOR. Just too pricey.

I would strongly enjoy seeing Cincy, Memphis and Louisville reunited in the same league. But that's going to happen unless the ACC eventually implodes.

And YNot's post highlights a point this UC and UM fan has made a few times on the board. If the Big 12 adds Memphis, it will be, in part, because the Memphis vs. Cincinnati hoops rivalry is noteworthy. For that matter, the UM vs. Houston basketball rivalry is rather good, too. "Conference building" is driven, to an extent, by rivalries. In fact, the BYU vs. Boise football rivalry (very respectable overall) is one reason Boise might get the Big 12 invite.

If the ACC ever gets shredded to ribbons, it would be interesting to see where things land. I could see some old Big East buddies reuniting.

These 3 plus USF could create a nice Eastern division, but there is no way the Big 12 could retrieve a higher payout per school than the current ACC from a non-ESPN network. Don't think CBS would pony up for these guys.

Might as well invite Miami and FSU too

IF (and only IF) something like this happened in 2010 could it have been remotely feasible.

In theory, if once Colorado and Nebraska left the Big XII had invited an Ohio Valley/Big East group of Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati, and West Virginia, they could have created an interesting conference with a larger footprint, along with traditional rivalries. Those schools may have found some appeal in joining a league that was passionate about football, and which still had major tentpole programs.

In this alternate universe fantasy, the SEC can still raid aTm, but in this case I’ll further bend history and have them grab FSU instead of MU to go with them. The FSU grab wouldn’t have expanded the footprint, but would have added a huge football brand ideally located to create intense new rivalries.

Would this have prevented the ultimate SEC power grab for OUT down the road? Most likely not. But that’s a moot point in any case because this didn’t play out that way to begin with. Whether that was a result of OUT black balling expansion to keep their current revenue stream high and future options open, a result of lack of imagination on the part of the Big XII to go so big, a lack of willingness on the likes of Syracuse and Pitt to make such a move (perhaps due to already occurring back-channel conversations with the ACC) doesn’t make a difference. It could be all of the above played a role.

But my long-winded and fantasy imbued point is that maybe something like this could have happened back then, when the Big XII was stronger. I just can’t imagine it happening now.

(01-12-2022 01:14 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 01:00 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 11:42 AM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  Pitt and Louisville are in a MUCH better situation now. Even without the GOR I could see either of them being interested.

I don't think they're in a "MUCH better situation" now, but they are trapped in it by the GoR for the time being. And I certainly don't think either of them is willing to blaze the trail against the GoR in order to make a lateral move to the Big XII, they likely do both prefer the current ACC setup. The problem for them is that the current ACC is unlikely to survive, and there is nothing Pitt & Louisville can do to alter that. It won't start with them or be about them, they'll just have to decide whether to bail out or try to rebuild in a rump ACC someday.

Both conferences are less stable than the SEC, B1G and PAC. But I think the XII has a better chance of retaining all of its current members if we could look ahead ten years from now. They're all basically available now, and the big boys have declined to take them. Not the case at all with the ACC, once the GoR is breached/expired. And what will be left in the XII is a far stronger base to build a conference around than the ACC schools who aren't likely to find better homes in the B1G & SEC.

Less stable than then the BIG, SEC & PAC perhaps, but 1000% more stable than the B12. The B12 has lost six teams in the past 10 years and the fact that they are in the middle of the country makes them vulnerable to losing more.

Revenue gradients cause instability. The ACC, even without losses, is well behind its neighbors in the BIG and SEC.

The ACC is probably the most unstable conference of any, being second rate yet with some brands of value. At least the Pac12 has geography.

Is it surprising the ACC rather stay at 4 than go to 12? Not at all. If the SEC can get more teams in the playoffs, the ACC knows it’s in trouble

Even more, they have a single rights holder that benefits from rearranging the matchups of 40 teams

(01-12-2022 06:07 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  IF (and only IF) something like this happened in 2010 could it have been remotely feasible.

In theory, if once Colorado and Nebraska left the Big XII had invited an Ohio Valley/Big East group of Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati, and West Virginia, they could have created an interesting conference with a larger footprint, along with traditional rivalries. Those schools may have found some appeal in joining a league that was passionate about football, and which still had major tentpole programs.

In this alternate universe fantasy, the SEC can still raid aTm, but in this case I’ll further bend history and have them grab FSU instead of MU to go with them. The FSU grab wouldn’t have expanded the footprint, but would have added a huge football brand ideally located to create intense new rivalries.

Would this have prevented the ultimate SEC power grab for OUT down the road? Most likely not. But that’s a moot point in any case because this didn’t play out that way to begin with. Whether that was a result of OUT black balling expansion to keep their current revenue stream high and future options open, a result of lack of imagination on the part of the Big XII to go so big, a lack of willingness on the likes of Syracuse and Pitt to make such a move (perhaps due to already occurring back-channel conversations with the ACC) doesn’t make a difference. It could be all of the above played a role.

But my long-winded and fantasy imbued point is that maybe something like this could have happened back then, when the Big XII was stronger. I just can’t imagine it happening now.

Phog I'm curious...Kansas could plausibly be invited to any of the other P5 conferences. IF the Big XII was no more and you had an invitation in hand from the B1G, ACC, PAC and SEC where would you most & least like to see the Jayhawks land?

Pitt is happy in the ACC. It has plenty of traditional rivals from the old BE with it and AAU academic peers in UNC, UVA, Duke and GT. Being in the ACC means it has almost all of its games played in the all important eastern time zone, a presence in five growing southern states and multiple away games that are road trips for its fans. Also, the ACC is still more stable than the B12. If the ACC were to be raided by the SEC or BIG, it would look to back fill with the eastern B12 schools. Cincy, WV and UCF would all jump to the ACC, even if it was missing several of the bigger name brand schools.

(01-12-2022 07:17 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Pitt is happy in the ACC. It has plenty of traditional rivals from the old BE with it and AAU academic peers in UNC, UVA, Duke and GT. Being in the ACC means it has almost all of its games played in the all important eastern time zone, a presence in five growing southern states and multiple away games that are road trips for its fans. Also, the ACC is still more stable than the B12. If the ACC were to be raided by the SEC or BIG, it would look to back fill with the eastern B12 schools. Cincy, WV and UCF would all jump to the ACC, even if it was missing several of the bigger name brand schools.

Did you see the ratings for the ACC conference title game? The American had more when up against the BIG. You’re already very weak.

Is there a difference between the AAC and a picked over ACC? It’s the same question I had with the Big 12. The pay will be incredibly low for the ACC and ESPN will use it as an opportunity to move teams down to the AAC. It will be much harder to go the other way because the Big 12 may have multiple rights holders, and the bottom of the Big 12 not as bad as the bottom of the ACC

I’m not even sure Pitt would get an invite with WVU in the market. Another Florida team or even Wake may have more value.

(01-12-2022 07:27 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 07:17 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Pitt is happy in the ACC. It has plenty of traditional rivals from the old BE with it and AAU academic peers in UNC, UVA, Duke and GT. Being in the ACC means it has almost all of its games played in the all important eastern time zone, a presence in five growing southern states and multiple away games that are road trips for its fans. Also, the ACC is still more stable than the B12. If the ACC were to be raided by the SEC or BIG, it would look to back fill with the eastern B12 schools. Cincy, WV and UCF would all jump to the ACC, even if it was missing several of the bigger name brand schools.

Did you see the ratings for the ACC conference title game? The American had more when up against the BIG. You’re already very weak.

Is there a difference between the AAC and a picked over ACC? It’s the same question I had with the Big 12. The pay will be incredibly low for the ACC and ESPN will use it as an opportunity to move teams down to the AAC. It will be much harder to go the other way because the Big 12 may have multiple rights holders, and the bottom of the Big 12 not as bad as the bottom of the ACC

I’m not even sure Pitt would get an invite with WVU in the market. Another Florida team or even Wake may have more value.

So you're saying the ACC is ripe to get picked apart like Conference USA?

(01-12-2022 07:17 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Pitt is happy in the ACC. It has plenty of traditional rivals from the old BE with it and AAU academic peers in UNC, UVA, Duke and GT. Being in the ACC means it has almost all of its games played in the all important eastern time zone, a presence in five growing southern states and multiple away games that are road trips for its fans. Also, the ACC is still more stable than the B12. If the ACC were to be raided by the SEC or BIG, it would look to back fill with the eastern B12 schools. Cincy, WV and UCF would all jump to the ACC, even if it was missing several of the bigger name brand schools.

This is all correct. Pitt is very happy in the ACC. There are other institutional fits as well, size wise, urban university wise, athletic department characteristics...the ACC is the absolute best institutional fit for Pitt. It has no interest in leaving the ACC as long as it is viable. It wouldn't have any interest in the B12 even if UT and OU were staying. It had that option in 2011. Frankly, there isn't a school in the ACC that would be interested in the B12 and other concocted scenarios hoping otherwise are absolutely ludicrous.

WVU, on the other hand, would leave for the ACC in a heartbeat.

(01-12-2022 07:56 PM)Porcine Wrote:  So you're saying the ACC is ripe to get picked apart like Conference USA?

I don't think it's ripe yet, but there is some heavy low-hanging fruit on that grafted together tree that the branches aren't strong enough to hold. Right now the tree is safe behind a fence with the GoR and there are other ongoing events which likely need to be resolved first - pending litigation on status of athletes, playoff expansion, multiple league TV deals up for renewal, Texas & Oklahoma's integration with the SEC, etc.

When the dust settles in a few years and the GoR is that much closer to expiration (or the fence may have been toppled by other events by then), THEN the ACC will be ripe for the B1G & SEC to pick the fruit they want. Depending on how many escape the ACC that way, I think it may well be the Big XII who is stronger and absorbs the remnants rather than the ACC raiding from the XII to rebuild.

(01-12-2022 08:17 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 07:56 PM)Porcine Wrote:  So you're saying the ACC is ripe to get picked apart like Conference USA?

I don't think it's ripe yet, but there is some heavy low-hanging fruit on that grafted together tree that the branches aren't strong enough to hold. Right now the tree is safe behind a fence with the GoR and there are other ongoing events which likely need to be resolved first - pending litigation on status of athletes, playoff expansion, multiple league TV deals up for renewal, Texas & Oklahoma's integration with the SEC, etc.

When the dust settles in a few years and the GoR is that much closer to expiration (or the fence may have been toppled by other events by then), THEN the ACC will be ripe for the B1G & SEC to pick the fruit they want. Depending on how many escape the ACC that way, I think it may well be the Big XII who is stronger and absorbs the remnants rather than the ACC raiding from the XII to rebuild.

Hypothetically, the B12 ends up with something like this.
West
BYU
Baylor
Houston
TCU
Texas Tech
Oklahoma State
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State

East
Louisville
Cincy
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
UCF
Miami
NC State
Wake Forest
Boston College

(01-12-2022 07:27 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(01-12-2022 07:17 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Pitt is happy in the ACC. It has plenty of traditional rivals from the old BE with it and AAU academic peers in UNC, UVA, Duke and GT. Being in the ACC means it has almost all of its games played in the all important eastern time zone, a presence in five growing southern states and multiple away games that are road trips for its fans. Also, the ACC is still more stable than the B12. If the ACC were to be raided by the SEC or BIG, it would look to back fill with the eastern B12 schools. Cincy, WV and UCF would all jump to the ACC, even if it was missing several of the bigger name brand schools.

Did you see the ratings for the ACC conference title game? The American had more when up against the BIG. You’re already very weak.

Is there a difference between the AAC and a picked over ACC? It’s the same question I had with the Big 12. The pay will be incredibly low for the ACC and ESPN will use it as an opportunity to move teams down to the AAC. It will be much harder to go the other way because the Big 12 may have multiple rights holders, and the bottom of the Big 12 not as bad as the bottom of the ACC

I’m not even sure Pitt would get an invite with WVU in the market. Another Florida team or even Wake may have more value.

There is a huge difference between the AAC and even a picked apart ACC. Just like there was still a huge difference between the AAC and a gutted B12. No B12 school was interested in going to the AAC after OUT left, and no ACC school would make a similar move. A picked apart ACC would most likely loose UVa, UNC, Duke and GT to the BIG and Clemson and FSU to the SEC. That leaves a conference that looks just like the old BE. As long as the TV deal and P5 status hold, WV, Cincy and UCF would still consider jumping ship for that. If they don't the ACC could pick up ANY G5 school east of the Rockies it wanted.

WVU would definitely want the improved travel of the ACC and of course UConn is hanging out there without a conference home.

South Florida also if UCF doesn't feel like leaving the XII.

The Big 12 simply cannot force the move unless a similar move is initiated above them. All realignment flows depend on what happens at the very top. It would take the SEC and B1G colluding to pick apart the ACC. This wouldn’t happen until 2032-2033 when the GoR is almost up. The ACC would have to weakened to such an extent that the Big 12 may appear to be viable. The only way that happens is if FSU, UNC, UVa, and Clemson go at once, either to the B1G or SEC.

Obviously I have no say but outside of Louisville rivalry, I have no interest in Cincy joining the ACC. Too many schools, below average P5 football outside of Clemson and Florida State 10 years ago (yes, this could change). Expanded too much in NE IMO and just too many schools.

I’m excited to be in the Big XII and feel the conference has a lot of growth. Number 1 bball conference most of the last 5 or so years including the new teams and leaving out Texas/Oklahoma, solid football that on average I think will be the 3 or 4 conference, and 12 teams. Renew playing WV is a +.

Pitt and UL are going nowhere any time soon.

Lol I can’t discuss UofL but Pitt would never leave an Eastern all Atlantic coast league with northeast and Southern states schools to go leave for the Big 12 lol even if that league had Texas and Oklahoma they would not be interested. Half that league is on the wrong side of the Mississippi River why would Pitt want anything to do with that? I think the Big 12 should be thankful the ACC doesn’t want UCF/WVU/Cincy lol