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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
FBS football is the only major college sport that doesn't operate in an expanded playoff system. FCS and the lower divisions in football, college basketball, baseball, hockey and State high school sports all compete in an expanded playoff format of some kind. It's just a matter of time for FBS. There's too much interest and money on the table to not expand the playoffs. In terms of the best teams in the CFP winning, the results are mixed based on the seeds:

2014 Ohio St #4
2015 Alabama #2
2016 Clemson #2
2017 Alabama #4
2018 Clemson #2
2019 LSU #1
2020 Alabama #1
2021 Georgia #3

It's never been about fairness. Shoot, how can it be fair when only a handful of programs consistently recruit the highest and deepest talent? An expanded playoff system levels the playing field more IMO.
 
01-12-2022 12:55 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 12:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 09:23 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:45 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:28 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Maybe this lights a fire under the commissioners to stop being POSs and get expansion ironed out.

It does make me wonder, if it had been UC vs. Georgia I bet the TV audience would have been larger.

UC-Georgia or Alabama-Michigan both wouldve been far higher than this. You completely region-lock interest when this **** happens every year...Dan Wetzel put into words what I've been trying to tell friends and fans about for years why this iteration is terrible and expanding is the only answer, despite many saying it would be stupid in the past...they are starting to come around.
Either midwestern team against either SEC team would have rated better but I'm not sure how expansion would help championship game ratings. More teams in the playoffs means more opportunities for the better teams to advance; is there really any argument that an expanded playoff doesn't result in Bama vs UGA? Not to mention that if you go to 12 and have 4 SEC teams it's going to happen occasionally where 3 SEC teams get to the semis and hurts the ratings there. The issue is the sport is too regional and that's trending the wrong way as many southern states are expanding population wise at the expense of a lot of midwestern and northeastern states. To compete with you SEC schools you have to recruit nationally or clean up on the west coast if you're USC or Oregon.


More to the point: If an expanded playoff did NOT result in Alabama vs Georgia, would it have been fair to the players & coaches?

Those were clearly the two best teams to anyone who watched the whole year.

If Georgia had hiccupped during a 3-round playoff, that would just cheapen the national title for whoever won it. The current system limits the odds of a crappy Utah team going on a hot streak and stealing a national title that they don't really deserve.

That's my problem with the NCAA basketball tournament. The first week is outstanding, but the end result doesn't really matter to me because the best team rarely wins the tournament.

The same can be said about every single sport that has anything resembling a playoff after the regular season. I guess I'd take it a step further and just say why aren't you advocating for ending the season after the conference championship games, or even having those, because a worse team could win in that every now and again (which is what technically happened in 6 of them this year based on rankings). To me, your regular season performance earns you the right to compete for the glory...you still have to go out and beat the rest of the best who you didn't have a chance to play in the regular season...if you didn't you aren't the best team, period. Think of the UVA team that lost to UMBC...if that team had the capacity to lose to a .500 low major team, they weren't the best team in the country, because the best teams don't let that happen, but by your argument, they were and that game shouldn't have happened. In the long and illustrious history of playoffs in sports, how many times has a team like a "crappy Utah" won a championship? The whole argument is that if a team does hiccup, they aren't the best team, regardless of who their opponent at the time is, and talent wins out in prolonged stretches, a bad team can't beat 4 good teams in a row.

I will never understand people who want LESS excitement, fun, underdogs, and parity. There is nothing more American than the underdog getting a chance to take on the big dog and getting it done....that's literally the first 50 years of our existence as a country.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2022 01:02 PM by BearcatMan.)
01-12-2022 12:58 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 12:58 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  In the long and illustrious history of playoffs in sports, how many times has a team like a "crappy Utah" won a championship? The whole argument is that if a team does hiccup, they aren't the best team, regardless of who their opponent at the time is, and talent wins out in prolonged stretches, a bad team can't beat 4 good teams in a row.

Yup. Not only that, seedings and byes can help adjust for [not eliminate] outliers from advancing in a deep run. We didn't even mention injuries. That is something you can't control but it can impact who the "best teams" are at the end of the year. The bottom line is expansion will happen and I don't see any real downside to it.
 
01-12-2022 01:20 PM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 12:16 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 11:44 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Possibly Exhibit A if anyone ever wonders why kids who are about to become millionaires opt out. Feel terrible for him. He was incredible this season. Same goes for Metchie.

Hopefully he took out a Loss in Value Policy beforehand.

This. The NCAA should require purchase of such a policy with the first dollars a student athlete takes out of NIL. I dare say it would be money better spent than what many 18 year old athletes would choose and it could give them incentive for life and work beyond football if a career ending injury robs them of an NFL dream.
 
01-12-2022 02:54 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 02:54 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 12:16 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 11:44 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Possibly Exhibit A if anyone ever wonders why kids who are about to become millionaires opt out. Feel terrible for him. He was incredible this season. Same goes for Metchie.

Hopefully he took out a Loss in Value Policy beforehand.

This. The NCAA should require purchase of such a policy with the first dollars a student athlete takes out of NIL. I dare say it would be money better spent than what many 18 year old athletes would choose and it could give them incentive for life and work beyond football if a career ending injury robs them of an NFL dream.

Jake Butt did it before the bowl game where he hurt his knee and he made double what he would've in his first contract as a healthy TE because of it. Incredibly smart move by anyone who has the financial ability to do it.
 
01-12-2022 04:25 PM
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ZCat Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 09:41 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 09:23 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:45 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 08:28 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Maybe this lights a fire under the commissioners to stop being POSs and get expansion ironed out.

It does make me wonder, if it had been UC vs. Georgia I bet the TV audience would have been larger.

UC-Georgia or Alabama-Michigan both wouldve been far higher than this. You completely region-lock interest when this **** happens every year...Dan Wetzel put into words what I've been trying to tell friends and fans about for years why this iteration is terrible and expanding is the only answer, despite many saying it would be stupid in the past...they are starting to come around.
Either midwestern team against either SEC team would have rated better but I'm not sure how expansion would help championship game ratings. More teams in the playoffs means more opportunities for the better teams to advance; is there really any argument that an expanded playoff doesn't result in Bama vs UGA? Not to mention that if you go to 12 and have 4 SEC teams it's going to happen occasionally where 3 SEC teams get to the semis and hurts the ratings there. The issue is the sport is too regional and that's trending the wrong way as many southern states are expanding population wise at the expense of a lot of midwestern and northeastern states. To compete with you SEC schools you have to recruit nationally or clean up on the west coast if you're USC or Oregon.

The argument is that talent may spread (or stay within region) once it is proven that every team has a shot at the playoff with conference championships. There wouldn't be guys from Washington State and LA going to Georgia as much because they realize they can play for a National Title from a West Coast school, there won't be people from the Mid-Atlantic leaving the Big Ten/ACC for SEC country as much for the same reasons, etc. etc. It isn't just that having more games will improve the ratings, it's that having more teams will improve the balance of talent. Right now, nearly 50% of the 5 stars in the last 5 years are in the SEC, and that is almost assuredly because those guys know that's the only conference that is a true win-and-in.

Dude, you should get paid to write for someone. Great explanation.

I will add that eventually Saban will retire. That should Help the balance as well. I also like the idea that if kids stay in their region of the country their parents can go to a few games as well.
 
01-12-2022 11:55 PM
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Crewdogz Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 12:55 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  FBS football is the only major college sport that doesn't operate in an expanded playoff system. FCS and the lower divisions in football, college basketball, baseball, hockey and State high school sports all compete in an expanded playoff format of some kind. It's just a matter of time for FBS. There's too much interest and money on the table to not expand the playoffs. In terms of the best teams in the CFP winning, the results are mixed based on the seeds:

2014 Ohio St #4
2015 Alabama #2
2016 Clemson #2
2017 Alabama #4
2018 Clemson #2
2019 LSU #1
2020 Alabama #1
2021 Georgia #3

It's never been about fairness. Shoot, how can it be fair when only a handful of programs consistently recruit the highest and deepest talent? An expanded playoff system levels the playing field more IMO.

Bolded above. The current system protects the "haves"; I'm a huge college football fan and love watching the lower division playoffs.
 
01-13-2022 08:52 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-12-2022 01:20 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
(01-12-2022 12:58 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  In the long and illustrious history of playoffs in sports, how many times has a team like a "crappy Utah" won a championship? The whole argument is that if a team does hiccup, they aren't the best team, regardless of who their opponent at the time is, and talent wins out in prolonged stretches, a bad team can't beat 4 good teams in a row.

Yup. Not only that, seedings and byes can help adjust for [not eliminate] outliers from advancing in a deep run. We didn't even mention injuries. That is something you can't control but it can impact who the "best teams" are at the end of the year. The bottom line is expansion will happen and I don't see any real downside to it.

How many times are playoffs won by teams that everyone agrees aren't dominant? Let's just look at the FCS championship:

NDSU has been absolutely dominant since 2011. But before then:

2008 winner Richmond was #7 in the final regular season poll and finished 3rd in its 6-team CAA division. They also got destroyed by 5-7 Virginia.

2007 winner Appalachian State was 9-2 and #5 going into the playoffs (including a loss at home to unranked conference rival Georgia Southern). There were 3 undefeated teams (Northern Iowa, Montana, and McNeese State) and a 1-loss Southern Illinois whose only loss was to undefeated UNI (and both beat FBS teams that year). But App State never faced any of those four teams - Montana and McNeese State lost in the first round, and UNI and USI both got knocked out of the playoffs when #13 Delaware (who finished 3rd in its 6-team division) went on a roll.

2004 winner James Madison was #8 in the final poll. They had already lost to #6 William & Mary in the regular season. But they beat #2 Furman in a 14-13 game in which they blocked 2 field goals. They won the rematch with W&M in the semis, and beat #7 Montana in the finals, never facing the top-ranked SIU Salukis (who were #1 almost the whole season but were upset in the first round).

2002 winner Western Kentucky was #15 in the final regular season poll. They had already gotten blown out by #1 McNeese State and #2 Western Illinois in the regular season. But the playoff allowed them to get rematches with both squads, which they won.

1998 winner UMass was #12 in the final regular season poll. They had 3 losses, including 2 losses to #8 UConn.

1997 champion Youngstown State finished 3rd in its conference.

1995 champion Montana was #8 in the final regular season poll, including losses to 3-8 Washington State and 6-5 conference mate Idaho (2nd in the conference that year). There were 4 undefeated teams that year, but Montana won by never having to face any of the top-4 teams in the playoffs.

1992 champion Marshall finished in a 3-way tie for 2nd in its 8-team conference. They also got blown out by a 3-8 Missouri team.
 
01-14-2022 02:23 PM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
People do have insane recency bias when it comes to the elite programs. Growing up, I thought of the Florida gators the same way people think about Alabama now. Those Tebow championships were the first "dynasties" I witnessed in College football.

There's no doubt there's a caste system in the sport. I also think people exaggerate how big the gap is. Alabama was 6-7 the last year before Saban got in. This year's Florida team almost lost to an FCS school. Programs change.
 
01-14-2022 03:26 PM
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Post: #70
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-14-2022 03:26 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  People do have insane recency bias when it comes to the elite programs. Growing up, I thought of the Florida gators the same way people think about Alabama now. Those Tebow championships were the first "dynasties" I witnessed in College football.

There's no doubt there's a caste system in the sport. I also think people exaggerate how big the gap is. Alabama was 6-7 the last year before Saban got in. This year's Florida team almost lost to an FCS school. Programs change.

Yeah, I think that people overestimate the importance of the program. Saban is the best coach of all time according to most and rightfully so. But Alabama as you mentioned was lost for a long time before he got there and Saban won a title at LSU. My point is it's mostly a coach driven sport. If Saban hadn't hadn't gone to the NFL LSU would be what Bama is; he'd probably have the same level of success at Georgia or Florida too. Urban Meyer won two titles at Florida and they've been going through coaches like crazy since.

I think the upper caste you talk about is about 6-8 schools and if you pair program without resource limitations with special coach you get these types of runs.
 
01-14-2022 03:37 PM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
I think coaching fit is probably more undervalued too. Selfishly I also think it's something ADs are beginning to learn and part of the reason why we didn't have OU, USC, Florida, etc. sniffing around up here as much in the last cycle (ND maybe too). Fickell's great career success was waiting in a great job at OSU until the Cincinnati job opened up. He saw what kind of talent was available here, knew he had the connections to go get it, and knew he had the personality to match the Cincinnati program culture. Suddenly a little old G5 program is playing the playoffs. Even better, he's applied the same caution to his next coaching move too. And we're reaping the benefits as a program because of it.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2022 03:55 PM by Cataclysmo.)
01-14-2022 03:54 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
(01-14-2022 03:37 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(01-14-2022 03:26 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  People do have insane recency bias when it comes to the elite programs. Growing up, I thought of the Florida gators the same way people think about Alabama now. Those Tebow championships were the first "dynasties" I witnessed in College football.

There's no doubt there's a caste system in the sport. I also think people exaggerate how big the gap is. Alabama was 6-7 the last year before Saban got in. This year's Florida team almost lost to an FCS school. Programs change.

Yeah, I think that people overestimate the importance of the program. Saban is the best coach of all time according to most and rightfully so. But Alabama as you mentioned was lost for a long time before he got there and Saban won a title at LSU. My point is it's mostly a coach driven sport. If Saban hadn't hadn't gone to the NFL LSU would be what Bama is; he'd probably have the same level of success at Georgia or Florida too. Urban Meyer won two titles at Florida and they've been going through coaches like crazy since.

I think the upper caste you talk about is about 6-8 schools and if you pair program without resource limitations with special coach you get these types of runs.

Ohio State is the one program that seems to be able win with whoever the coach is there. For longest time the lack of an legit second Ohio team combined with their resources and political advantages makes it hard to see fall too far.

From 1967 until now they only have one season with less than six wins. Over the last 80 years they have had 9 coaches finish at least top 6.
 
01-14-2022 09:35 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Georgia vs Bama Thread
I guess it depends on your definition of win. I was born in 1984. When I grew up, I knew almost no Ohio State fans. Like None. They weren't talked about. I knew there was a college football team somewhere, and the Big 10 was kind of a big deal. That's it.

Now as an adult, almost all those same people are all Ohio State fans. There is a reason for that. John Cooper had a winning record, yes. He didn't win like Urban and Day.

To Recap;
Cooper - Zero Big Os in Colerain
Tressel - Big Os started trickling in
Urban/Day - More "life long" Ohio State fans, than Bengals Fans.
 
01-16-2022 08:28 PM
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