In the Old Testament there is examples of where the spirit of the Lord left individuals. Sampson (Judges 16) and King Saul (1 Samuel 16) are two that come to mind.

In Ezekiel we are given in graphic detail the spirit of the Lord leaving the temple in Jerusalem to give the evil folks there over to captivity. Ezekiel 10:18, 11:22-25 and 12:1 all foretell of his departure and the coming destruction of the Israelites for their iniquities.

I know the Lord will never forsake NT Christians (Ephesians 1). So, my real question here is has the spirit of God left the U.S. as stated in Romans 1:21-28?

(01-03-2022 12:05 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  In the Old Testament there is examples of where the spirit of the Lord left individuals. Sampson (Judges 16) and King Saul (1 Samuel 16) are two that come to mind.

In Ezekiel we are given in graphic detail the spirit of the Lord leaving the temple in Jerusalem to give the evil folks there over to captivity. Ezekiel 10:18, 11:22-25 and 12:1 all foretell of his departure and the coming destruction of the Israelites for their iniquities.

I know the Lord will never forsake NT Christians (Ephesians 1). So, my real question here is has the spirit of God left the U.S. as stated in Romans 1:21-28?

Just from a Biblical standpoint there is no denying God has lowered his hedge of protection in our country.

For those who misunderstand what we mean by that its a spiritual hedge concerning morality. That is what Paul spoke of in Romans, that as a society steps further away from Him He lowers His hedge of protection that keeps a society from devolving into total depravity and reprobate status.

He give us grace periods of many years to repent and return to Him but instead we drift further away and further into moral chaos through social influencers and sexual revolutions and so forth. So he pulls his hedge back a little further, and society slips further down the rabbit hole of sin.

People tend to just mindlessly dismiss it and say "each generation says that about the young" without a thought to the fact that we actually do get more and more degenerate and wicked with each generation. Its undeniable and obvious yet people deny it at every turn.

But each generation see that less and less because their views of immorality are progressively softer and softer and softer to the point that unthinkable things are seen as virtuous and righteous instead of evil.

And then you are truly lost.

(01-03-2022 12:05 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  In the Old Testament there is examples of where the spirit of the Lord left individuals. Sampson (Judges 16) and King Saul (1 Samuel 16) are two that come to mind.

In Ezekiel we are given in graphic detail the spirit of the Lord leaving the temple in Jerusalem to give the evil folks there over to captivity. Ezekiel 10:18, 11:22-25 and 12:1 all foretell of his departure and the coming destruction of the Israelites for their iniquities.

I know the Lord will never forsake NT Christians (Ephesians 1). So, my real question here is has the spirit of God left the U.S. as stated in Romans 1:21-28?

Isn't it unremarkable how the church and our society has gone down the EXACT same path Israel did?

You read Ezekiel, or Isaiah or Jeremiah and others and you see the church doing EXACTLY what Israel did as it engages more and more in spiritual fornication against God.

We blend in more and more Pagan tradition and customs and blend more and more eastern regions and other practices into modern Christianity. Its not just the Catholic Church but now many protestants are doing the same thing, and even working to combine all religions into one and worship along side religions who reject Jesus and the gospel. Plus the same greed, the same lust, the same structural corruption, ect.

We mirror the mistakes of Israel and just repeating history all over again. You read all those things God said Israel did that angered and blasphemed Him and realize we keep doing those same things. You can't read those books and not see the parallels, which of course is the point for us today and was always intended to be so. He knew we would make the same mistakes the Jews did.

Its also why He tells us in scripture if we know what happened in ancient times we will know how things happen at the end. So much of Biblical understanding comes from seeing the patterns that are repeated and over and over from Genesis through Revelation.

That's also why so many people have a hard time grasping Revelation, because you have to know the rest of scripture inside and out to see the patters and symbols and repetition of patters and symbols that come up in Revelation. So many people have only read one full book in the Bible and that ONE is Revelation. Its great that people read it and they should now more than ever, but you are going to miss much of the intended meaning if you mostly skipped the other 65 books. That is the source of most of the division of views over Revelation.

The more people have deeply studied the entire Bible (particularity the OT), the more their "big picture" views begin to line up on Revelation. The less people have studied the OT, the more their views are scattered all over the map over it. And its basically like a political argument at that point that people are HIGHLY offended, totally closed off and angered over.

There is a noticeable increase of people talking about it thought the last few years. People can clearly see the coming globalist one world agenda that is being pushed hard in all aspects of society now. Just as people can see the increasing wickedness all throughout our culture.

I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country. As you know there has been an increase in secularism and as mentioned an increase in apostate and heretical churches that have basically turned from the faith and the Bible.

So many churches need to be reminded of what Jesus Himself said of the last church (Laodicea):

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Jesus stated in John 14 : 15 " If you love me you will keep my commandments." That's a mouthful. People tell me they are Christians but in the same breath tell me you do not need to be baptized to be saved. Once again a deed as simple as baptism in which Christ clearly lays it out for us when speaking to Nicodemus in John 3:5 that unless one is born again of the spirit and the water they will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. I asked them in Jesus was here today and asked you would you deny him? It speaks to a bigger picture that folks believe they are Christians as long as they can live their life and only adhere to those teachings which fit into their lifestyle. The wages of sin is death. Romans 6

We have politicians and even our President saying they are devout Catholics. What does that really mean? From their example I would suspect that being a devout Catholic would mean I do as I please to get what I want. We also have a Pope advocating Homosexuality. I guess the Pope doesn't realize that sin will not enter into the gates of heaven. The bottom line is that these folks are in no way leading lives that even remotely would lead me to believe they are following the commandments of Jesus or that they even have a clue as to what it means.

This brings us back full circle to my original question. The spirit of God our Father will not be in a place where it is anything but Godly. He will not accept our selfish sinful ways and thus is slowly departing this land. My fear is that once he fully departs our grossly ignorant sinful society will fall into chaos. Jesus clearly tells us as the battle rages on between Americans that a house divided against itself will not stand Mark 3

(01-04-2022 12:24 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Jesus stated in John 14 : 15 " If you love me you will keep my commandments." That's a mouthful. People tell me they are Christians but in the same breath tell me you do not need to be baptized to be saved. Once again a deed as simple as baptism in which Christ clearly lays it out for us when speaking to Nicodemus in John 3:5 that unless one is born again of the spirit and the water they will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. I asked them in Jesus was here today and asked you would you deny him? It speaks to a bigger picture that folks believe they are Christians as long as they can live their life and only adhere to those teachings which fit into their lifestyle. The wages of sin is death. Romans 6

We have politicians and even our President saying they are devout Catholics. What does that really mean? From their example I would suspect that being a devout Catholic would mean I do as I please to get what I want. We also have a Pope advocating Homosexuality. I guess the Pope doesn't realize that sin will not enter into the gates of heaven. The bottom line is that these folks are in no way leading lives that even remotely would lead me to believe they are following the commandments of Jesus or that they even have a clue as to what it means.

This brings us back full circle to my original question. The spirit of God our Father will not be in a place where it is anything but Godly. He will not accept our selfish sinful ways and thus is slowly departing this land. My fear is that once he fully departs our grossly ignorant sinful society will fall into chaos. Jesus clearly tells us as the battle rages on between Americans that a house divided against itself will not stand Mark 3

The pope even says atheists, Muslims and Hindus do not need Jesus to be saved.

Now there are even some protestant leaders even suggesting this.

Jesus said that no one comes to the Father by any other way but Him alone. Jesus, Peter and Paul all teach there is no other path to salvation outside of Christ. Its the sole message of the entire Bible.

ANYONE who says you do not Jesus for salvation to God has rejected God, rejected Jesus and is NOT a Christian. No matter what church they claim to be a part of or what position they hold.

Ever notice how the American left always talks about what the rest of the world is doing? ... as if it's some sort of validation for their degenerate wants for our society.

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

Well of course. Human beings are not mindless robots, they are individual people.

Not everyone sitting in a church is saved, some are just there for their spouse, some are just there because their parents make them go. Some attend for years and even help in services and other functions for many years and then later admit they never really believed but went along with everything anyway. Others think just being an "official" member of a church is all that means. They live their lives however they want and think everything is good if they just attend mass or services once a week.

Others believe with all their heart, have genuinely repented and given their lives over the Christ.

There are also a lot of people who simply identify as Christian from a political perspective, but never attend church, never pray, live their lives in wilful sin and really know little to nothing about any of it.

There is a very wide spectrum of people and types.

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

This is a really good question. Fortunately we do NOT have to be the judge or juror as to whose name will be in the book of Life and whose will not.

Only Jesus Christ knew the real hearts of men. Zacchaeus was accepted by Christ when all others deemed him not worthy. Another example is this parable in Luke 18. It gives us insight into what Christians can look like.

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Another question needs to be addressed as well as to why the New Testament is laden with the terms "falling away" and "backsliding". Could it be that there was a fear that Christians would not always be Christians. I think so.

The Apostle Paul described being a Christian as a Marathon race in which a prize awaits those who finish the course.

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4

Paul also describes a man named Demas in 2 Timothy. Demas left the ministry because of his love for the ways of the world were greater than the sacrifice of being a Christian. We are told he went to Thessalonica. This city was known for prostitution and gambling. This is a person who had suffered much like Paul for being a Christian. Paul's reference is personal and hurtful. Is Demas still saved? Who knows? I always hold out hope that he repented but that is just my wishful thinking.

Finally, Matthew 7 lays out the blueprint to your very question. It starts by telling us not to judge. Next we are told those that ask will receive, those who seek the truth will find the answer and those who knock the door will be opened. This chapter also tells us narrow is the way and broad is the path to destruction. You will know people by the fruits they bare. Christ is very direct to those who do not follow his ways as stated in verses 21-23.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So, I guess for me it all boils down to is this. Those Christians who keep the commandments of Christ as laid out in NT and do so not because they have too but because they truly love the Lord and it is a joy to them are the ones whose name I would expect to be in the book of Life. Hope this helps.

(01-04-2022 10:29 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

Well of course. Human beings are not mindless robots, they are individual people.

Not everyone sitting in a church is saved, some are just there for their spouse, some are just there because their parents make them go. Some attend for years and even help in services and other functions for many years and then later admit they never really believed but went along with everything anyway. Other think just being an "official" member of a church is all that means. They live their lives however they want and think everything is good if they just attend mass or services once a week.

Others believe with all their heart, have genuinely repented and given their lives over the Christ.

There are also a lot of people who simply identify as Christian from a political perspective, but never attend church, never pray, live their lives in wilful sin and really know little to nothing about any of it.

There is a very wide spectrum of people and types.

This unfortunately is true but still hurtful because I truly enjoy the company of a lot of these folks. I will never forget the day when the Preacher told me there are a lot of people here that DO NOT want to be Christians.

(01-05-2022 12:04 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 10:29 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

Well of course. Human beings are not mindless robots, they are individual people.

Not everyone sitting in a church is saved, some are just there for their spouse, some are just there because their parents make them go. Some attend for years and even help in services and other functions for many years and then later admit they never really believed but went along with everything anyway. Other think just being an "official" member of a church is all that means. They live their lives however they want and think everything is good if they just attend mass or services once a week.

Others believe with all their heart, have genuinely repented and given their lives over the Christ.

There are also a lot of people who simply identify as Christian from a political perspective, but never attend church, never pray, live their lives in wilful sin and really know little to nothing about any of it.

There is a very wide spectrum of people and types.

This unfortunately is true but still hurtful because I truly enjoy the company of a lot of these folks. I will never forget the day when the Preacher told me there are a lot of people here that DO NOT want to be Christians.

Its a difficult issue to talk about, even for many deacons and pastors. They often try to bring in respected leaders from other churches & ministries to try and preach on it.

Its even harder in place like this. 99% of the time that question is an obvious set up to just scream "judge not".

But of course "Judge not" is one of the most over and misused verses in the entire Bible. The passage is not about never making judgments, its about being a hypocrite in your judgments. "Remove the board in your own eye, THEN you can help your bother with his splinter."

But I am a genuine believer, its not hypocritical at all for genuine repentant believers to point out some are non-believers who will even openly admit to it. I don't mean publicly singling people out, just acknowledging the fact that there ARE unsaved non-believers in churches. Publicly singling people out is often the worst thing you can do. It should be handled through prayer and private ministering for those open to it.

And we are not making this stuff out of thin air, Jesus, Paul and Peter all warned us the last church age would be filled with apostasy and false doctrines of demons.

Jesus Himself said because you are not hot or cold I will vomit you out of my mouth. In Revelation 3 He called for not the sinners to repent, but those Christians in the final church age. He said He was outside the church knocking on the door, but they don't want let Him in.

(01-04-2022 10:29 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

Well of course. Human beings are not mindless robots, they are individual people.

Not everyone sitting in a church is saved, some are just there for their spouse, some are just there because their parents make them go. Some attend for years and even help in services and other functions for many years and then later admit they never really believed but went along with everything anyway. Others think just being an "official" member of a church is all that means. They live their lives however they want and think everything is good if they just attend mass or services once a week.

Others believe with all their heart, have genuinely repented and given their lives over the Christ.

There are also a lot of people who simply identify as Christian from a political perspective, but never attend church, never pray, live their lives in wilful sin and really know little to nothing about any of it.

There is a very wide spectrum of people and types.

Point taken. But in the other post you referred to “Christians” and now you’ve switched to church-goers or church-members. Of course those are not the same thing.

(01-06-2022 03:03 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  Point taken. But in the other post you referred to “Christians” and now you’ve switched to church-goers or church-members. Of course those are not the same thing.

Yeah, that was the point from the beginning. Nothing "switched", that IS the point.

There is the Biblical meaning of Christian, and then there is the way the world uses it.

If by "Christians" you did not actually mean church goers then you should have said so. That is what most people reading this would associate that word with. Lets not pretend like I was being shifty by including the terms believers and church goers. It was me who was drawing a distinction between the two, not you.

From the worlds perspective we are all Christian, from the Biblical perspective and from Christs perspective, we are not.

That is as a direct of an answer to your question as there is.

(01-06-2022 05:08 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-06-2022 03:03 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  Point taken. But in the other post you referred to “Christians” and now you’ve switched to church-goers or church-members. Of course those are not the same thing.

Yeah, that was the point from the beginning. Nothing "switched", that IS the point.

There is the Biblical meaning of Christian, and then there is the way the world uses it.

If by "Christians" you did not actually mean church goers then you should have said so. That is what most people reading this would associate that word with. Lets not pretend like I was being shifty by including the terms believers and church goers. It was me who was drawing a distinction between the two, not you.

From the worlds perspective we are all Christian, from the Biblical perspective and from Christs perspective, we are not.


That is as a direct of an answer to your question as there is.

Absolutely spot on. In my heart of hearts these folks are doing what is being asked in their church even though it is just going through the motions. They really have no clue of teachings of Christ and never respond when they are brought into the biblical conversations. The worst are my Catholic cousins and their friends. I love all of these folks. They are good people just clueless and have no desire to study up. I get the general response let’s ask Father So and so. You can exhort them all day long but they have no desire. They live very much in this world and are secular. They are Christians in their mind and I would never tell them they are not. I only talk to them about what God really desires.

They are not enemies of Christ which we have a ton of right now in America. But, it is fair to say they are not Allies either. Christianity is not priority one in their life.

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

There is a Remnant. All that process Christianity are not all possessing Christianity. Jesus said “Why do ye call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I tell you?” Paul warned there would be a great calling away, and then the Antichrist would be revealed. That falling away is now happening.

(01-11-2022 07:44 PM)OldTimer46 Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

There is a Remnant. All that process Christianity are not all possessing Christianity. Jesus said “Why do ye call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I tell you?” Paul warned there would be a great calling away, and then the Antichrist would be revealed. That falling away is now happening.

Our church often uses a Kenyan rite for communion, which begins (congregational responses in bold):

Is the Father with us?
He is.
Is Christ among us?
He is.
Is the Spirit here?
He is.
This is our God.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We are his people.
We are redeemed.
Lift up your hearts.
We lift them to the Lord.

I find it to be very refreshing reminder of who we are and where we are. In keeping with the subject of this thread, I do wonder about secular society, though.

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

No, you're either saved or you're not. You're a Christian or you're not.

(01-12-2022 02:37 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(01-04-2022 12:04 PM)Cardiff Wrote:  

(01-03-2022 07:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I'd say genuine saved Christians are a smaller and smaller minority of the country.

Are some Christians saved and some Christians unsaved?

No, you're either saved or you're not. You're a Christian or you're not.

That is the view of Christ and the Bible, but the world has a much different one.