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Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
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Post: #21
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(01-03-2022 12:05 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  In the Old Testament there is examples of where the spirit of the Lord left individuals. Sampson (Judges 16) and King Saul (1 Samuel 16) are two that come to mind.

In Ezekiel we are given in graphic detail the spirit of the Lord leaving the temple in Jerusalem to give the evil folks there over to captivity. Ezekiel 10:18, 11:22-25 and 12:1 all foretell of his departure and the coming destruction of the Israelites for their iniquities.

I know the Lord will never forsake NT Christians (Ephesians 1). So, my real question here is has the spirit of God left the U.S. as stated in Romans 1:21-28?

I like eric's answer about our morality protecting us from sin. Morality in the US has certainly been shifting quickly this past century.

The indwelling of God's spirit we understand to be within believers. God's presence in the Meeting Tent, the Ark, and the Temple is more of a communal representation of Immanuel. I don't think God has had a specific presence in some American artifact or building; his presence here is via each of us.
01-18-2022 12:15 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.
02-21-2022 04:44 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-21-2022 04:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.

Ezekiel 8 through 11

You may want to rethink that statement
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2022 10:28 PM by BlueDragon.)
02-25-2022 10:28 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-25-2022 10:28 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-21-2022 04:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.

Ezekiel 8 through 11

You may want to rethink that statement

Apologies if is sounds arrogant on my part, but I truly believe there's nothing I need to rethink based on the Ezekial verses.

My Christian view/mindset/perspective (we all have our own) is that we cannot conflate or compare in any way how God dealt with Jacob's descendants in the Old Testament, regarding how they point to the world's need for Christ, and His (at the time they were written) future first coming. I'm not contradicting Paul in his statement, nor would encourage anyone not to take to heart what he said about the Old Testament when he stated that all scripture is profitable and for our edification (especially since at the time he said it most of the New Testament didn't exist).

And we must also apply his directive to our New Testament that he didn't have, which made what he said also partially prophetic. In other words, I'm not saying we shouldn't read and ask God to speak to us from the Old Testament. We should.

And yet, Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and having established His Church renders much of what was written in the Old, as needing to be put into perspective as writings foreshadowing what was fulfilled by what occurred in the New. But much of the old (other than where prophecy clearly gets into details about his first coming and subsequent death) was written, with the intent somewhat veiled at the time, regarding how it pertained to Christ.

Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.

But we might not agree (even though I'm sure I'm correct about it) it's the same regarding the New Testament Church and the Old Testament Nation of Israel. The former is the "real thing" and the latter is a foreshadowing of it, that is no longer to be considered separately from the greater, true version of that to which it pointed/referred.

Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.

Before Paul, and before the Church was created, Jesus addressed the same type of speculation that your OP contemplates: if/why God would allow punishment for sin to happen to groups of people (i.e., what you're calling to "withdraw His spirit" from them, and no longer protect/bless them) based on their sinfulness.

Jesus cleared-up that misperception in Luke 13:4. He minced no words about that the 18 killed by the falling of the Tower of Siloam weren't greater sinners than the people asking if they were, and that all people would deserve to be punished, IF it was God's desire to punish sinners by allowing or causing bad things to happen to them.

America has also seen towers fall, and there are those who speculated that it had to do with God's judgment-- because we no longer "as a nation" put him first as a people. Who can forget the offensive, preposterous judgmental assertions about how it was an indication of "chickens coming home to roost", because of "America's" sins?

The United States isn't God's people and never has been. Christians in the USA have been and still are. But so are all other Christians in the world, in whatever nations they live. No government has been or will be except the government that rests on Christ's shoulders. And the Christians who make up Christ's body, and are his bride, are the only place where His Spirit resides.

Can anyone say today (literally while I write this) about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that what has befallen the Christians of that country now battling or fleeing for their lives, has happened to them, because God has withdrawn his Spirit from their nation?

The Father's mercy allows continued opportunity everywhere for people to turn to His Son for the healing of their souls. And He extends it both to those who are His people, Christians, and those who are not. His Spirit hasn't been, nor will ever be withdrawn from anyone who receives it, and continues to live life in obedience to Christ as their Savior.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022 03:12 PM by G-Man.)
02-26-2022 03:00 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #25
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-26-2022 03:00 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.


Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.



You don't seem to grasp that literally everyone here agrees with that. We all agree that in Christ there is no one nation God has chosen and created like Israel in the OT. We all agree that Christians across the whole earth are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith, and its no longer by the flesh like ancient Israel. We all agree that WE are the temple of God now in the church age, the spirit of God dwells within us, not with a temple made without hands or over a special chosen nation. We all agree that salvation is on an individual basis, not on a whole.

Whether Jew or Gentile, American African, black, white, male, female, etc we are ALL ONE in Christ. We all agree out salvation is by the death burial and resurrection of Christ alone, that He is the sacrifice for our sins and its no longer about a nation or animal sacrifices.

You are mile deep into a straw man that no one here believes, no one here argued and no one here remotely claimed.


None of that has anything to do with what we are talking about and what Paul wrote about in Romans chapters 1 and 2 and how God deals with a culture that rejects Him and He allows to slide further and further into sin and given them over to those vile lusts and affections.

If you really desire to split hairs for the sake of argument (as you always seem to do) you could conflate the two issues based on Bludragaons title alone, but he clearly is not suggesting the spirit of God dwells within a chose special nation as opposed to individual Christians across the globe. Nor is he suggesting America is the New ancient Israel in God's eyes in respect to how he deals with them and protects them or not. That is not what Paul was referring to in Romans 1 & 2 and that is not what we were discussing in this thread.
(This post was last modified: 03-03-2022 05:38 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-26-2022 10:03 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-26-2022 10:03 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-26-2022 03:00 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.


Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.



You don't seem to grasp that literally everyone here agrees with that. We all agree that in Christ there is no one nation God has chosen and created like Israel in the OT. We all agree that Christians across the whole earth are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith, and its no longer by the flesh like ancient Israel. We all agree that WE are the temple of God now in the church age, the spirit of God dwells within us, not with a temple made without hands or over a special chosen nation. We all agree that salvation is on an individual basis, not on a whole.

Whether Jew or Gentile, American African, black, white, male, female, etc we are ALL ONE in Christ. We all agree out salvation is by the death brutal and resurrection of Christ alone, that He is the sacrifice for our sins and it no longer about a nation or animal sacrifices.

You are mile deep into a straw man that no one here believes, no one here argued and no one here remotely claimed.

None of that has anything to do with what we are talking about and what Paul wrote about in Romans chapters 1 and 2 and how God deals with a culture that rejects Him and He allows to slide further and further into sin and given them over to those vile lusts and affections.

If you really desire to split hairs for the sake of argument (as you always seem to do) you could conflate the two issues based on Bludragaons title alone, but he clearly is not suggesting he spirit of God dwells within a chose special nation as opposed to individual Christians across the globe. Nor is he suggesting America is the New ancient Israel in God's eyes in respect to how he deals with them and protects them or not. That is not what Paul was referring to in Romans 1 & 2 and that is not what we were discussing in thsi thread.

If you now finally agree that the Church is the true Israel of God, then I'm confused why you went to great lengths to cast this in a negative light--considering your complaints in other threads about how my own posts are rambling or otherwise much lengthier than necessary to make their point.

But, who cares? Because I'm stunned we finally are in agreement!

And evidently everyone else also agrees with me, since you just stated that you know without doubt, that/how they all believe exactly what you believe, and that what you believe is exactly what I believe. I'm thrilled that both you and everyone else agrees with me that the Old Testament Jewish tribes weren't God's true Chosen people, but actually a foreshadowing of the New Testament Church!

My only disappointment is that I'd thought it might've made you glad to realize we actually do agree, instead of complaining once again about how stating the things I believe is irritating to you in some way. After all, based on what you said, my beliefs are your own beliefs, too.

Time to celebrate! 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022 10:55 PM by G-Man.)
02-26-2022 10:54 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-26-2022 10:54 PM)G-Man Wrote:  If you now finally agree that the Church is the true Israel of God, then I'm confused why you went to great lengths to cast this in a negative light--considering your complaints in other threads about how my own posts are rambling or otherwise much lengthier than necessary to make their point.

But, who cares? Because I'm stunned we finally are in agreement!

And evidently everyone else also agrees with me, since you just stated that you know without doubt, that/how they all believe exactly what you believe, and that what you believe is exactly what I believe. I'm thrilled that both you and everyone else agrees with me that the Old Testament Jewish tribes weren't God's true Chosen people, but actually a foreshadowing of the New Testament Church!

My only disappointment is that I'd thought it might've made you glad to realize we actually do agree, instead of complaining once again about how stating the things I believe is irritating to you in some way. After all, based on what you said, my beliefs are your own beliefs, too.

Time to celebrate! 04-cheers



We have always agreed on that point, you can pull up where I made that same point in many different threads for many years now.

This is what I am talking about with you. You so obsessively and blindly argue everything. Routinely you do not even understand what you are arguing against or what the other person even believes. You just tend to have these robotic blind talking points you reflexively vomit up, even when they are totally out of context.

When all you want to do is blindly argue for the sake of arguing, you make a total fool of yourself just like you did here.

You never LISTEN to anyone, you just argue and attack and blindly repeat the same points even when they have nothing to do with the thread and subject at all.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022 11:42 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-26-2022 11:21 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
But as always you did go way too far when you said the OT tribes were not God's chosen people in OT times. Those were God's own words about them He repeated over and over and over again throughout the OT. I'm not going to quote all those verses where God said that, because it would fill up the entire thread. Its just another example of you rejecting God's own words in scripture.

They indeed were a picture of the coming church age as well, virtually all denominations agree on that. But Jesus still came and offered THEM the Kingdom and as written, they broke the covenant and rejected Jesus when He came and so the Church age began.

But the church age is not the eternal state. The church age has a beginning and an end. Scripture makes clear God has NOT cast them away forever.

Romans 11:25 & 28

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(This post was last modified: 03-03-2022 05:41 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-26-2022 11:27 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
Matthew 23:37-39

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord
.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022 11:50 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
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Post: #30
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-26-2022 11:21 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  This is what I am talking about with you. You so obsessively and blindly argue everything. Routinely you do not even understand what you are arguing against or what the other person even believes. You just tend to have these robotic blind talking points you reflexively vomit up, even when they are totally out of context.

When all you want to do is blindly argue for the sake of arguing, you make a total fool of yourself just like you did here.

You never LISTEN to anyone, you just argue and attack and blindly repeat the same points even when they have nothing to do with the thread and subject at all.

Thanks for responding so kindly, once again.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2022 01:07 AM by G-Man.)
02-27-2022 01:06 AM
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Post: #31
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-27-2022 01:06 AM)G-Man Wrote:  
(02-26-2022 11:21 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  This is what I am talking about with you. You so obsessively and blindly argue everything. Routinely you do not even understand what you are arguing against or what the other person even believes. You just tend to have these robotic blind talking points you reflexively vomit up, even when they are totally out of context.

When all you want to do is blindly argue for the sake of arguing, you make a total fool of yourself just like you did here.

You never LISTEN to anyone, you just argue and attack and blindly repeat the same points even when they have nothing to do with the thread and subject at all.

Thanks for responding so kindly, once again.


You were being totally disingenuous and you know you were.

Stop pretending otherwise. 07-coffee3
02-27-2022 01:13 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-26-2022 03:00 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(02-25-2022 10:28 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-21-2022 04:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

My bad, sometimes in my egocentric world I live in I could see where I might have misled. It was meant for all Christians throughout the world.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.

Ezekiel 8 through 11

You may want to rethink that statement

Apologies if is sounds arrogant on my part, but I truly believe there's nothing I need to rethink based on the Ezekial verses.

My Christian view/mindset/perspective (we all have our own) is that we cannot conflate or compare in any way how God dealt with Jacob's descendants in the Old Testament, regarding how they point to the world's need for Christ, and His (at the time they were written) future first coming. I'm not contradicting Paul in his statement, nor would encourage anyone not to take to heart what he said about the Old Testament when he stated that all scripture is profitable and for our edification (especially since at the time he said it most of the New Testament didn't exist).

God doesn't change to fit our present day circumstances. I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Hebrews 13

And we must also apply his directive to our New Testament that he didn't have, which made what he said also partially prophetic. In other words, I'm not saying we shouldn't read and ask God to speak to us from the Old Testament. We should.

And yet, Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and having established His Church renders much of what was written in the Old, as needing to be put into perspective as writings foreshadowing what was fulfilled by what occurred in the New. But much of the old (other than where prophecy clearly gets into details about his first coming and subsequent death) was written, with the intent somewhat veiled at the time, regarding how it pertained to Christ.

Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.

But we might not agree (even though I'm sure I'm correct about it) it's the same regarding the New Testament Church and the Old Testament Nation of Israel. The former is the "real thing" and the latter is a foreshadowing of it, that is no longer to be considered separately from the greater, true version of that to which it pointed/referred.

Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.

Before Paul, and before the Church was created, Jesus addressed the same type of speculation that your OP contemplates: if/why God would allow punishment for sin to happen to groups of people (i.e., what you're calling to "withdraw His spirit" from them, and no longer protect/bless them) based on their sinfulness.

Jesus cleared-up that misperception in Luke 13:4. He minced no words about that the 18 killed by the falling of the Tower of Siloam weren't greater sinners than the people asking if they were, and that all people would deserve to be punished, IF it was God's desire to punish sinners by allowing or causing bad things to happen to them.

America has also seen towers fall, and there are those who speculated that it had to do with God's judgment-- because we no longer "as a nation" put him first as a people. Who can forget the offensive, preposterous judgmental assertions about how it was an indication of "chickens coming home to roost", because of "America's" sins?

The United States isn't God's people and never has been. Christians in the USA have been and still are. But so are all other Christians in the world, in whatever nations they live. No government has been or will be except the government that rests on Christ's shoulders. And the Christians who make up Christ's body, and are his bride, are the only place where His Spirit resides.

Can anyone say today (literally while I write this) about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that what has befallen the Christians of that country now battling or fleeing for their lives, has happened to them, because God has withdrawn his Spirit from their nation?

The Father's mercy allows continued opportunity everywhere for people to turn to His Son for the healing of their souls. And He extends it both to those who are His people, Christians, and those who are not. His Spirit hasn't been, nor will ever be withdrawn from anyone who receives it, and continues to live life in obedience to Christ as their Savior.

G-man overall this is a good post and it is definitely what we as Christians believe. I think you caught the train and missed the boat as to what I was asking when Biblically it has already been written the Spirit will leave 2 Thessalonians 2.

I believe and its just my assumption that sometimes you cannot see the overall picture because of self righteousness, Believe me I've been there and the older I get and mature God has allowed me to see things I wasn't able to see earlier in my walk. As a Jamaican preacher I listened to so eloquently said "While we are guarding the front door and our so focused on being righteous Satan is walking through the back door. Things are not always as they appear. This only comes about by opening your mind.

I'll give an example which is foreign to most Christians myself included. Reincarnation is not something most of us believe in even though it is there in Matthew at the transfiguration. The disciples told Jesus his time had not yet come because Elijah had not returned. Jesus response was he had already returned and opened their eyes to see it was John the Baptist that was Elijah. So, don't put God in a box and be open everything but always pray for understanding and make sure it is biblically sound before accepting. And, trust me if God wants any of us to come back here after we pass we will return and there is not a doubt in my mind about that.
02-27-2022 12:29 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
Another thing, G-Man you clearly oversimplified the death of those at Siloam as not being because they were greater sinners. Which I agree with because it was the belief of the day that God punished those for their sins even to the point of death. God DOES discipline HIS OWN to try to get them back on the right path.

FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE PUNISHES EVERY SON WHOM HE ACCEPTS. ' Hebrews 12:6

Back to those who died at Siloam. They died because as Job clearly tells us it was their time. Everyone here should realize we have a set number of days that was put in motion from the time arrived and no man will exceed that number. It’s not this disease or that accident as much as our expiration date expired.

This is a hard saying for those that believe this place is heaven and want to live to 150 years old.
02-27-2022 02:48 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-27-2022 12:29 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-26-2022 03:00 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(02-25-2022 10:28 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-21-2022 04:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

My bad, sometimes in my egocentric world I live in I could see where I might have misled. It was meant for all Christians throughout the world.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.

Ezekiel 8 through 11

You may want to rethink that statement

Apologies if is sounds arrogant on my part, but I truly believe there's nothing I need to rethink based on the Ezekial verses.

My Christian view/mindset/perspective (we all have our own) is that we cannot conflate or compare in any way how God dealt with Jacob's descendants in the Old Testament, regarding how they point to the world's need for Christ, and His (at the time they were written) future first coming. I'm not contradicting Paul in his statement, nor would encourage anyone not to take to heart what he said about the Old Testament when he stated that all scripture is profitable and for our edification (especially since at the time he said it most of the New Testament didn't exist).

God doesn't change to fit our present day circumstances. I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Hebrews 13

And we must also apply his directive to our New Testament that he didn't have, which made what he said also partially prophetic. In other words, I'm not saying we shouldn't read and ask God to speak to us from the Old Testament. We should.

And yet, Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and having established His Church renders much of what was written in the Old, as needing to be put into perspective as writings foreshadowing what was fulfilled by what occurred in the New. But much of the old (other than where prophecy clearly gets into details about his first coming and subsequent death) was written, with the intent somewhat veiled at the time, regarding how it pertained to Christ.

Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.

But we might not agree (even though I'm sure I'm correct about it) it's the same regarding the New Testament Church and the Old Testament Nation of Israel. The former is the "real thing" and the latter is a foreshadowing of it, that is no longer to be considered separately from the greater, true version of that to which it pointed/referred.

Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.

Before Paul, and before the Church was created, Jesus addressed the same type of speculation that your OP contemplates: if/why God would allow punishment for sin to happen to groups of people (i.e., what you're calling to "withdraw His spirit" from them, and no longer protect/bless them) based on their sinfulness.

Jesus cleared-up that misperception in Luke 13:4. He minced no words about that the 18 killed by the falling of the Tower of Siloam weren't greater sinners than the people asking if they were, and that all people would deserve to be punished, IF it was God's desire to punish sinners by allowing or causing bad things to happen to them.

America has also seen towers fall, and there are those who speculated that it had to do with God's judgment-- because we no longer "as a nation" put him first as a people. Who can forget the offensive, preposterous judgmental assertions about how it was an indication of "chickens coming home to roost", because of "America's" sins?

The United States isn't God's people and never has been. Christians in the USA have been and still are. But so are all other Christians in the world, in whatever nations they live. No government has been or will be except the government that rests on Christ's shoulders. And the Christians who make up Christ's body, and are his bride, are the only place where His Spirit resides.

Can anyone say today (literally while I write this) about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that what has befallen the Christians of that country now battling or fleeing for their lives, has happened to them, because God has withdrawn his Spirit from their nation?

The Father's mercy allows continued opportunity everywhere for people to turn to His Son for the healing of their souls. And He extends it both to those who are His people, Christians, and those who are not. His Spirit hasn't been, nor will ever be withdrawn from anyone who receives it, and continues to live life in obedience to Christ as their Savior.

G-man overall this is a good post and it is definitely what we as Christians believe. I think you caught the train and missed the boat as to what I was asking when Biblically it has already been written the Spirit will leave 2 Thessalonians 2.

I believe and its just my assumption that sometimes you cannot see the overall picture because of self righteousness, Believe me I've been there and the older I get and mature God has allowed me to see things I wasn't able to see earlier in my walk. As a Jamaican preacher I listened to so eloquently said "While we are guarding the front door and our so focused on being righteous Satan is walking through the back door. Things are not always as they appear. This only comes about by opening your mind.

I'll give an example which is foreign to most Christians myself included. Reincarnation is not something most of us believe in even though it is there in Matthew at the transfiguration. The disciples told Jesus his time had not yet come because Elijah had not returned. Jesus response was he had already returned and opened their eyes to see it was John the Baptist that was Elijah. So, don't put God in a box and be open everything but always pray for understanding and make sure it is biblically sound before accepting. And, trust me if God wants any of us to come back here after we pass we will return and there is not a doubt in my mind about that.

I don't think we're actually talking about reincarnation, in Matthew 17. The prophet, Elijah, in the Old Testament, never experienced death. And someone who could be reincarnated (if the belief were valid) would need to die, and then be reborn.

Plus the Bible states that all men die only one time (Hebrews 9:27).

The Old Testament foreshadows a lot of the New. Israel in the Old, are the Jews. But Israel in the New, is the Church. They're definitely not the same things.

Jesus in the Old, is referred to as David's Son, but in the New, Jesus explains to the Pharisees that this cannot be the same as if they took it literally that the Messiah were David's Son, because David also refers to the Messiah as his Lord.

So, referring to Elijah in the OT, can be understood as his being a "type" (a representation) of John the Baptist.

Jesus was fully God and Man, which can't be explained about how two things can be only one thing, without also being two things. But yet, it's a foundational doctrine that Christ is neither only God, nor only Man, but fully each--and yet only one person.

When He was transfigured, it was His God nature, the Light of God, that was being perceived as the same great light that God is, and referred to in the opening passage of the Gospel of John.
02-28-2022 01:44 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(02-28-2022 01:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(02-27-2022 12:29 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-26-2022 03:00 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(02-25-2022 10:28 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-21-2022 04:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think God has favorites when it comes to Nations. I know a lot will disagree, but I don't think the United States has ever had some special blessing or destiny that made it more special than other countries or their forms of rule.

My bad, sometimes in my egocentric world I live in I could see where I might have misled. It was meant for all Christians throughout the world.

But, please don't think I'm disparaging the USA. It's the best place on earth to live, IMO, due to what it stands for (at least in the last 100 years). So, I definitely consider myself patriotic.

However, I just don't see any valid evidence or doctrine that supports the idea that America or any other country today, has ever possessed "the Spirit of the Lord" nor has lost it.

I think God's Spirit is offered and received only to and by human beings, and is not something He bestows on, nor withdraws from, their governments.

Ezekiel 8 through 11

You may want to rethink that statement

Apologies if is sounds arrogant on my part, but I truly believe there's nothing I need to rethink based on the Ezekial verses.

My Christian view/mindset/perspective (we all have our own) is that we cannot conflate or compare in any way how God dealt with Jacob's descendants in the Old Testament, regarding how they point to the world's need for Christ, and His (at the time they were written) future first coming. I'm not contradicting Paul in his statement, nor would encourage anyone not to take to heart what he said about the Old Testament when he stated that all scripture is profitable and for our edification (especially since at the time he said it most of the New Testament didn't exist).

God doesn't change to fit our present day circumstances. I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Hebrews 13

And we must also apply his directive to our New Testament that he didn't have, which made what he said also partially prophetic. In other words, I'm not saying we shouldn't read and ask God to speak to us from the Old Testament. We should.

And yet, Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and having established His Church renders much of what was written in the Old, as needing to be put into perspective as writings foreshadowing what was fulfilled by what occurred in the New. But much of the old (other than where prophecy clearly gets into details about his first coming and subsequent death) was written, with the intent somewhat veiled at the time, regarding how it pertained to Christ.

Having said this, I'll repeat (and believe I'm correct to say it) that TODAY the Church is God's ONLY chosen people--not any nation or government. And when it's appeared in the past (i.e. Old Testament scriptures about it) that God did have some chosen "nation" or "people" other than the Church, I'll also state my belief that such Old Testament references, point to the New Testament's fulfillment of them. For example, I'm sure we'll agree that God's requirement for sacrifices wasn't a valid "need" but merely a foreshadowing of what we all need-- Christ's final sacrifice that renders all others totally unnecessary.

But we might not agree (even though I'm sure I'm correct about it) it's the same regarding the New Testament Church and the Old Testament Nation of Israel. The former is the "real thing" and the latter is a foreshadowing of it, that is no longer to be considered separately from the greater, true version of that to which it pointed/referred.

Paul stated in Galatians 6:16 that the "Israel of God" even at THAT time, after Christ had been resurrected, was no longer the descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but only his descendants by Faith, which is the Church.

In the verses prior, Paul had been distinguishing between those who were still attempting to boast of being circumcised in the flesh (the Jewish people). And he contrasted them with those who had become a "new creation" in Christ" where it didn't matter if someone was or wasn't physically circumcised. Paul emphasized that those who were this new creation, were to live by "this rule" (being governed by Christ), and would have "peace and mercy be upon THEM, and the Israel of God". He was not talking about two different "new creations" but only ONE (which he'd just stated Christians were the "new creation" in the prior verse). The only new creation is the Church; the TRUE (and only remaining) Israel of God.

Old Testament Israel, like Old Testament Sacrifices, are foreshadowings of the real things they represent, that hadn't been yet fulfilled until Christ came. As a result, there was no longer a need for sacrifices of animals that weren't the true sacrifice necessary to conquer sin for all men. Christ was always and ONLY the true sacrifice for our sins. In the same way, God's ONLY "chosen" people weren't ever truly the physical descendants of Jacob which were merely a foreshadowing of the real thing: the Church of Christ, which is His ONLY real people-- the TRUE Israel of God.

And after Christ established His Church, the only place His Spirit now resides is in the physical bodies of all Human Beings regardless of their ancestry or history, who have become Christians, regardless of how it resided before in places (Temples). Since Pentecost, His Spirit resides wherever they are, in them; because they/we are all, in our physical bodies, Temples of God at the time we are baptized with Christ into His death to be raised up as a new creation with Him" as Paul clarifies in Romans 6.

Before Paul, and before the Church was created, Jesus addressed the same type of speculation that your OP contemplates: if/why God would allow punishment for sin to happen to groups of people (i.e., what you're calling to "withdraw His spirit" from them, and no longer protect/bless them) based on their sinfulness.

Jesus cleared-up that misperception in Luke 13:4. He minced no words about that the 18 killed by the falling of the Tower of Siloam weren't greater sinners than the people asking if they were, and that all people would deserve to be punished, IF it was God's desire to punish sinners by allowing or causing bad things to happen to them.

America has also seen towers fall, and there are those who speculated that it had to do with God's judgment-- because we no longer "as a nation" put him first as a people. Who can forget the offensive, preposterous judgmental assertions about how it was an indication of "chickens coming home to roost", because of "America's" sins?

The United States isn't God's people and never has been. Christians in the USA have been and still are. But so are all other Christians in the world, in whatever nations they live. No government has been or will be except the government that rests on Christ's shoulders. And the Christians who make up Christ's body, and are his bride, are the only place where His Spirit resides.

Can anyone say today (literally while I write this) about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that what has befallen the Christians of that country now battling or fleeing for their lives, has happened to them, because God has withdrawn his Spirit from their nation?

The Father's mercy allows continued opportunity everywhere for people to turn to His Son for the healing of their souls. And He extends it both to those who are His people, Christians, and those who are not. His Spirit hasn't been, nor will ever be withdrawn from anyone who receives it, and continues to live life in obedience to Christ as their Savior.

G-man overall this is a good post and it is definitely what we as Christians believe. I think you caught the train and missed the boat as to what I was asking when Biblically it has already been written the Spirit will leave 2 Thessalonians 2.

I believe and its just my assumption that sometimes you cannot see the overall picture because of self righteousness, Believe me I've been there and the older I get and mature God has allowed me to see things I wasn't able to see earlier in my walk. As a Jamaican preacher I listened to so eloquently said "While we are guarding the front door and our so focused on being righteous Satan is walking through the back door. Things are not always as they appear. This only comes about by opening your mind.

I'll give an example which is foreign to most Christians myself included. Reincarnation is not something most of us believe in even though it is there in Matthew at the transfiguration. The disciples told Jesus his time had not yet come because Elijah had not returned. Jesus response was he had already returned and opened their eyes to see it was John the Baptist that was Elijah. So, don't put God in a box and be open everything but always pray for understanding and make sure it is biblically sound before accepting. And, trust me if God wants any of us to come back here after we pass we will return and there is not a doubt in my mind about that.

I don't think we're actually talking about reincarnation, in Matthew 17. The prophet, Elijah, in the Old Testament, never experienced death. And someone who could be reincarnated (if the belief were valid) would need to die, and then be reborn.

Plus the Bible states that all men die only one time (Hebrews 9:27).

The Old Testament foreshadows a lot of the New. Israel in the Old, are the Jews. But Israel in the New, is the Church. They're definitely not the same things.

Jesus in the Old, is referred to as David's Son, but in the New, Jesus explains to the Pharisees that this cannot be the same as if they took it literally that the Messiah were David's Son, because David also refers to the Messiah as his Lord.

So, referring to Elijah in the OT, can be understood as his being a "type" (a representation) of John the Baptist.

Jesus was fully God and Man, which can't be explained about how two things can be only one thing, without also being two things. But yet, it's a foundational doctrine that Christ is neither only God, nor only Man, but fully each--and yet only one person.

When He was transfigured, it was His God nature, the Light of God, that was being perceived as the same great light that God is, and referred to in the opening passage of the Gospel of John.

9 (G)When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “(H)Tell the vision to no one until (I)the Son of Man has (J)risen from the dead.” 10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that (K)Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also (L)the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17

Elijah has already came and they did not recognize him and they did what they wanted. So also will Jesus suffer.

For me it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It is written very clear black and white. And since Elijah never died how could they kill him? Apparently if you delve into this very deeply you will find John the Baptist and Elijah also had similar physical traits. That only parallels what is written. I do not place any boundaries on God so all things are possible.

It really doesn’t change anything for Christians fundamentally.

To answer your one death scripture I ask is he talking about a spiritual death or a physical death? To me it’s spiritual.


BTW great post earlier on describing man as physical spiritual and soul. Definitely spend a lot time explaining this to folks. It is something never talked about.
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2022 11:47 AM by BlueDragon.)
03-01-2022 09:25 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(03-01-2022 09:25 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-28-2022 01:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think we're actually talking about reincarnation, in Matthew 17. The prophet, Elijah, in the Old Testament, never experienced death. And someone who could be reincarnated (if the belief were valid) would need to die, and then be reborn.

Plus the Bible states that all men die only one time (Hebrews 9:27).

The Old Testament foreshadows a lot of the New. Israel in the Old, are the Jews. But Israel in the New, is the Church. They're definitely not the same things.

Jesus in the Old, is referred to as David's Son, but in the New, Jesus explains to the Pharisees that this cannot be the same as if they took it literally that the Messiah were David's Son, because David also refers to the Messiah as his Lord.

So, referring to Elijah in the OT, can be understood as his being a "type" (a representation) of John the Baptist.

Jesus was fully God and Man, which can't be explained about how two things can be only one thing, without also being two things. But yet, it's a foundational doctrine that Christ is neither only God, nor only Man, but fully each--and yet only one person.

When He was transfigured, it was His God nature, the Light of God, that was being perceived as the same great light that God is, and referred to in the opening passage of the Gospel of John.

9 (G)When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “(H)Tell the vision to no one until (I)the Son of Man has (J)risen from the dead.” 10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that (K)Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also (L)the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17

Elijah has already came and they did not recognize him and they did what they wanted. So also will Jesus suffer.

For me it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It is written very clear black and white. And since Elijah never died how could they kill him? Apparently if you delve into this very deeply you will find John the Baptist and Elijah also had similar physical traits. That only parallels what is written. I do not place any boundaries on God so all things are possible.

It really doesn’t change anything for Christians fundamentally.

To answer your one death scripture I ask is he talking about a spiritual death or a physical death? To me it’s spiritual.


BTW great post earlier on describing man as physical spiritual and soul. Definitely spend a lot time explaining this to folks. It is something never talked about.

I have to think it actually is something fundamentally important, if Christians believed in reincarnation-- but not saying that as a negative response toward you, personally.

It's just that the reason I think it is of fundamental importance, is because if assumed we had more than one life to live (via reincarnation) here on earth, then it's possible that we could have two differing responses to Christianity.

For example, if our salvation depends on a choice about how we live, and respond to God in this life to receive salvation (which I think is fundamentally necessary-- that we DO live our life here before we die, so that we are able to receive salvation afterward in eternity), then it presents a big possible dilemma:

What if, in one life (assuming we're reincarnated at least once more after the first one) we decided to become a Christian, and made a decision to make Jesus our savior so that we had salvation--BUT in our second reincarnated life, what if we rejected Christ and didn't live as a Christian? Or, what if we're reincarnated a dozen times, and during one of them accept the Gospel and live as a Christian, but during all the others altogether and completely willfully reject it, and Christ? And what if we were Satanists and lived in a horribly evil way, totally in direct opposition of how someone should live who loves Christ, in some/all reincarnated life/lives, after having lived one life when we lived as a Christian in every way?

And finally, if someone does believe in reincarnation, then perhaps they might be willing to live in this current life, rejecting Christ, and seeking worldly pleasures and live sinfully in this life, believing and expecting that they can repent and receive salvation in some future reincarnated life.

This is why I think we don't get more than one life to make our decision to live in a way worthy of being Christ's disciple, so that reincarnation is a fundamental thing that must not be true, for Christianity to be true.
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2022 04:27 PM by G-Man.)
03-01-2022 04:16 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(03-01-2022 04:16 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(03-01-2022 09:25 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-28-2022 01:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think we're actually talking about reincarnation, in Matthew 17. The prophet, Elijah, in the Old Testament, never experienced death. And someone who could be reincarnated (if the belief were valid) would need to die, and then be reborn.

Plus the Bible states that all men die only one time (Hebrews 9:27).

The Old Testament foreshadows a lot of the New. Israel in the Old, are the Jews. But Israel in the New, is the Church. They're definitely not the same things.

Jesus in the Old, is referred to as David's Son, but in the New, Jesus explains to the Pharisees that this cannot be the same as if they took it literally that the Messiah were David's Son, because David also refers to the Messiah as his Lord.

So, referring to Elijah in the OT, can be understood as his being a "type" (a representation) of John the Baptist.

Jesus was fully God and Man, which can't be explained about how two things can be only one thing, without also being two things. But yet, it's a foundational doctrine that Christ is neither only God, nor only Man, but fully each--and yet only one person.

When He was transfigured, it was His God nature, the Light of God, that was being perceived as the same great light that God is, and referred to in the opening passage of the Gospel of John.

9 (G)When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “(H)Tell the vision to no one until (I)the Son of Man has (J)risen from the dead.” 10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that (K)Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also (L)the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17

Elijah has already came and they did not recognize him and they did what they wanted. So also will Jesus suffer.

For me it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It is written very clear black and white. And since Elijah never died how could they kill him? Apparently if you delve into this very deeply you will find John the Baptist and Elijah also had similar physical traits. That only parallels what is written. I do not place any boundaries on God so all things are possible.

It really doesn’t change anything for Christians fundamentally.

To answer your one death scripture I ask is he talking about a spiritual death or a physical death? To me it’s spiritual.


BTW great post earlier on describing man as physical spiritual and soul. Definitely spend a lot time explaining this to folks. It is something never talked about.

I have to think it actually is something fundamentally important, if Christians believed in reincarnation-- but not saying that as a negative response toward you, personally.

It's just that the reason I think it is of fundamental importance, is because if assumed we had more than one life to live (via reincarnation) here on earth, then it's possible that we could have two differing responses to Christianity.

For example, if our salvation depends on a choice about how we live, and respond to God in this life to receive salvation (which I think is fundamentally necessary-- that we DO live our life here before we die, so that we are able to receive salvation afterward in eternity), then it presents a big possible dilemma:

What if, in one life (assuming we're reincarnated at least once more after the first one) we decided to become a Christian, and made a decision to make Jesus our savior so that we had salvation--BUT in our second reincarnated life, what if we rejected Christ and didn't live as a Christian? Or, what if we're reincarnated a dozen times, and during one of them accept the Gospel and live as a Christian, but during all the others altogether and completely willfully reject it, and Christ? And what if we were Satanists and lived in a horribly evil way, totally in direct opposition of how someone should live who loves Christ, in some/all reincarnated life/lives, after having lived one life when we lived as a Christian in every way?

And finally, if someone does believe in reincarnation, then perhaps they might be willing to live in this current life, rejecting Christ, and seeking worldly pleasures and live sinfully in this life, believing and expecting that they can repent and receive salvation in some future reincarnated life.

This is why I think we don't get more ace than one life to make our decision to live in a way w his time had worthy of being Christ's disciple, so that reincarnation is a fundamental thing that must not be true, for Christianity to be true.

I like all your responses but what you fail to grasp IS THERE IS NO GUARANTEE you will be incarcerated. It’s just a possibility. And all things are possible with God.

As with most of us we have an expiration date. King Hezekiah must have somehow knew his time had come and prayed begging God to spare him. God heard his prayers and gave him 15 more years to live. Exception to the rule because God does as he pleases.

I’ll give you one more caveat as was explained to me about reincarnation which has merit and there is nothing biblically to dispute it. It neatly ties in with Elijah transfiguration and reincarnation.

Jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword. Now can Jesus tell a lie or is he just reprimanding a disciple?

Going with this as a truth remember Elijah had a contest with the prophets of Baal to see whose God was THE SUPREME GOD. Neither could light their pile only God could. God lit Elijah’s pile but the pile of Baal never lit. Next Elijah decapitated many Baal prophets. Fast forward And not by coincidence was John the Baptist beheaded as Elijah in likewise manner.

So, the only question for me is does everyone who kills somebody get reincarnated? Not sure as there is no guarantee and if some like Jeffrey Dahmer are washed in the blood of the lamb afterwards then the point is moot.

I do not believe there is a guarantee that you will be reincarnated. The only guarantee is Jesus Christ teachings period.

Why would anyone be willing to take a chance knowing God has a emotional range well past ours that include anger and jealousy. At that point your fate is in his hands and just the possibility of a second chance would not be a position I would want to be in.

That is why it does not change anything fundamentally because you jumped to the conclusion it was a guarantee which it is not. It’s a possibility only.

Check out James Leininger’s story. Both his parents were devout Christians and took quite a while for his dad to accept
03-01-2022 06:26 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(03-01-2022 04:16 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(03-01-2022 09:25 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(02-28-2022 01:44 PM)G-Man Wrote:  I don't think we're actually talking about reincarnation, in Matthew 17. The prophet, Elijah, in the Old Testament, never experienced death. And someone who could be reincarnated (if the belief were valid) would need to die, and then be reborn.

Plus the Bible states that all men die only one time (Hebrews 9:27).

The Old Testament foreshadows a lot of the New. Israel in the Old, are the Jews. But Israel in the New, is the Church. They're definitely not the same things.

Jesus in the Old, is referred to as David's Son, but in the New, Jesus explains to the Pharisees that this cannot be the same as if they took it literally that the Messiah were David's Son, because David also refers to the Messiah as his Lord.

So, referring to Elijah in the OT, can be understood as his being a "type" (a representation) of John the Baptist.

Jesus was fully God and Man, which can't be explained about how two things can be only one thing, without also being two things. But yet, it's a foundational doctrine that Christ is neither only God, nor only Man, but fully each--and yet only one person.

When He was transfigured, it was His God nature, the Light of God, that was being perceived as the same great light that God is, and referred to in the opening passage of the Gospel of John.

9 (G)When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “(H)Tell the vision to no one until (I)the Son of Man has (J)risen from the dead.” 10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that (K)Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted. So also (L)the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17

Elijah has already came and they did not recognize him and they did what they wanted. So also will Jesus suffer.

For me it doesn’t get any clearer than that. It is written very clear black and white. And since Elijah never died how could they kill him? Apparently if you delve into this very deeply you will find John the Baptist and Elijah also had similar physical traits. That only parallels what is written. I do not place any boundaries on God so all things are possible.

It really doesn’t change anything for Christians fundamentally.

To answer your one death scripture I ask is he talking about a spiritual death or a physical death? To me it’s spiritual.


BTW great post earlier on describing man as physical spiritual and soul. Definitely spend a lot time explaining this to folks. It is something never talked about.

I have to think it actually is something fundamentally important, if Christians believed in reincarnation-- but not saying that as a negative response toward you, personally.

It's just that the reason I think it is of fundamental importance, is because if assumed we had more than one life to live (via reincarnation) here on earth, then it's possible that we could have two differing responses to Christianity.

For example, if our salvation depends on a choice about how we live, and respond to God in this life to receive salvation (which I think is fundamentally necessary-- that we DO live our life here before we die, so that we are able to receive salvation afterward in eternity), then it presents a big possible dilemma:

What if, in one life (assuming we're reincarnated at least once more after the first one) we decided to become a Christian, and made a decision to make Jesus our savior so that we had salvation--BUT in our second reincarnated life, what if we rejected Christ and didn't live as a Christian? Or, what if we're reincarnated a dozen times, and during one of them accept the Gospel and live as a Christian, but during all the others altogether and completely willfully reject it, and Christ? And what if we were Satanists and lived in a horribly evil way, totally in direct opposition of how someone should live who loves Christ, in some/all reincarnated life/lives, after having lived one life when we lived as a Christian in every way?

And finally, if someone does believe in reincarnation, then perhaps they might be willing to live in this current life, rejecting Christ, and seeking worldly pleasures and live sinfully in this life, believing and expecting that they can repent and receive salvation in some future reincarnated life.

This is why I think we don't get more ace than one life to make our decision to live in a way w his time had worthy of being Christ's disciple, so that reincarnation is a fundamental thing that must not be true, for Christianity to be true.

I like all your responses but what you fail to grasp IS THERE IS NO GUARANTEE you will be reincarnated. It’s just a possibility. And all things are possible with God.

As with most of us we have an expiration date. King Hezekiah must have somehow knew his time had come and prayed begging God to spare him. God heard his prayers and gave him 15 more years to live. Exception to the rule because God does as he pleases.

I’ll give you one more caveat as was explained to me about reincarnation which has merit and there is nothing biblically to dispute it. It neatly ties in with Elijah transfiguration and reincarnation.

Jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword. Now can Jesus tell a lie or is he just reprimanding a disciple?

Going with this as a truth remember Elijah had a contest with the prophets of Baal to see whose God was THE SUPREME GOD. Neither could light their pile only God could. God lit Elijah’s pile but the pile of Baal never lit. Next Elijah decapitated many Baal prophets. Fast forward And not by coincidence was John the Baptist beheaded as Elijah in likewise manner.

So, the only question for me is does everyone who kills somebody get reincarnated? Not sure as there is no guarantee and if some like Jeffrey Dahmer are washed in the blood of the lamb afterwards then the point is moot.

I do not believe there is a guarantee that you will be reincarnated. The only guarantee is Jesus Christ teachings period.

Why would anyone be willing to take a chance knowing God has a emotional range well past ours that include anger and jealousy. At that point your fate is in his hands and just the possibility of a second chance would not be a position I would want to be in.

That is why it does not change anything fundamentally because you jumped to the conclusion it was a guarantee which it is not. It’s a possibility only.

Check out James Leininger’s story. Both his parents were devout Christians and took quite a while for his dad to accept
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2022 06:52 PM by BlueDragon.)
03-01-2022 06:47 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
(03-01-2022 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  I like all your responses but what you fail to grasp IS THERE IS NO GUARANTEE you will be incarcerated. It’s just a possibility. And all things are possible with God.

As with most of us we have an expiration date. King Hezekiah must have somehow knew his time had come and prayed begging God to spare him. God heard his prayers and gave him 15 more years to live. Exception to the rule because God does as he pleases.

I’ll give you one more caveat as was explained to me about reincarnation which has merit and there is nothing biblically to dispute it. It neatly ties in with Elijah transfiguration and reincarnation.

Jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword. Now can Jesus tell a lie or is he just reprimanding a disciple?

Going with this as a truth remember Elijah had a contest with the prophets of Baal to see whose God was THE SUPREME GOD. Neither could light their pile only God could. God lit Elijah’s pile but the pile of Baal never lit. Next Elijah decapitated many Baal prophets. Fast forward And not by coincidence was John the Baptist beheaded as Elijah in likewise manner.

So, the only question for me is does everyone who kills somebody get reincarnated? Not sure as there is no guarantee and if some like Jeffrey Dahmer are washed in the blood of the lamb afterwards then the point is moot.

I do not believe there is a guarantee that you will be reincarnated. The only guarantee is Jesus Christ teachings period.

Why would anyone be willing to take a chance knowing God has a emotional range well past ours that include anger and jealousy. At that point your fate is in his hands and just the possibility of a second chance would not be a position I would want to be in.

That is why it does not change anything fundamentally because you jumped to the conclusion it was a guarantee which it is not. It’s a possibility only.

Check out James Leininger’s story. Both his parents were devout Christians and took quite a while for his dad to accept

Can't resist poking fun (and know you meant to type a different word, so I realize you didn't mean it) but I'm glad there's no guarantee I'll end up in jail.

Regarding that Jesus said those who live by the sword shall also die by it--and asking if He could lie--I'd answer that Christ could lie and some think He did, but that He never lied because He won't lie. For example some would claim He lied when He said to His disciples that He wasn't going to the feast in Jerusalem, but then went in secret. (John 7: 8-10)

And I'd also follow-up by pointing out He also said if your right eye offends you, to pluck it out, and that if your right hand offends you, to cut it off. And He also said to His Disciples (and a lot of them abandoned him at that point when He said it) that they needed to eat His body, and to drink His blood.

One of the problems with anyone accurately discerning what's true or not about scripture, on their own, is when attempting to discern whether something is to be taken literally vs. as an allegory. Some people think they can do that based on everything in the Bible "being evident" to anyone who sincerely wants to know the truth, and is willing to allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. On the other hand, before I'd be willing to trust others to guide me about this, I'd need a very good reason to even get to a point where I'd be wiling to believe they might correctly know what they're teaching.
(This post was last modified: 03-02-2022 09:20 PM by G-Man.)
03-01-2022 09:12 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Is the Spirit of the Lord Still Here?
So, what about those souls who were born lived and died without ever having knowledge of Jesus Christ? What is their fate?
03-01-2022 10:04 PM
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