So I know that aspects of this conversation have been re-hashed ad nauseum. But given the bowl results of Army and Air Force, it bears repeating. The service academies have been able to sustain success while operating similar versions of the triple option offense.

Army beat Missouri 24-22 (Blaze had 14 tackles btw). Air Force beat Louisville 31-28. If you include Navy, the service academies have had a tremendous run of success. It seems like a life time ago when Rice took down Air Force in the Armed Forces Bowl in Ft. Worth (2012 season).

Two out of the three teams are in conferences and still manage to remain successful despite familiarity.

So what gives? The academic profile is similar. The academic mission is similar. Is it the recruiting pool of national versus local that hurts?

(12-29-2021 11:29 AM)Pan95 Wrote:  So what gives? The academic profile is similar. The academic mission is similar. Is it the recruiting pool of national versus local that hurts?

Doing something different than the vast majority of FBS teams versus the delusional belief Rice can succeed by doing the same thing as the big boys.

If Air Force had not thrown for 252 yards (versus 170 rushing), they would not have gotten the 3 point win over a 6-7 Louisville team.

Army was lucky to win by 2 over a 6-7 Missouri team that outgained Army by over 100 yards, in spite of having many players unavailable.

Rice should be doing the same damn thing as the service academies. The triple option is the only offense that levels the playing field for the teams that can't recruit talent, like Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice.

(12-29-2021 11:54 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  If Air Force had not thrown for 252 yards (versus 170 rushing), they would not have gotten the 3 point win over a 6-7 Louisville team.

Army was lucky to win by 2 over a 6-7 Missouri team that outgained Army by over 100 yards, in spite of having many players unavailable.

Point taken, but they were at least in a position to capitalize on said luck by winning enough games to get to a bowl game. Whether we win with panache or win ugly, could the option offense put us in a position to play a Missouri or Louisville in a bowl game?

(12-29-2021 11:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  Rice should be doing the same damn thing as the service academies. The triple option is the only offense that levels the playing field for the teams that can't recruit talent, like Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice.

Back to 2005? I remember this board was awash then with the desire to get rid of that so-called boring, predictable offense, and replace it with something more modern and replace Hatfield with somebody more modern.

Sometimes you don't know what you got until you lose it...or, in this case, throw it away.

(12-29-2021 11:54 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  If Air Force had not thrown for 252 yards (versus 170 rushing), they would not have gotten the 3 point win over a 6-7 Louisville team.

Army was lucky to win by 2 over a 6-7 Missouri team that outgained Army by over 100 yards, in spite of having many players unavailable.

And when is the last time we even showed up against a decent team , much less eke out a win?

(12-29-2021 11:54 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  If Air Force had not thrown for 252 yards (versus 170 rushing), they would not have gotten the 3 point win over a 6-7 Louisville team.

Army was lucky to win by 2 over a 6-7 Missouri team that outgained Army by over 100 yards, in spite of having many players unavailable.

You take all the statistics you want. I’d rather have wins.

(12-29-2021 12:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2021 11:54 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  If Air Force had not thrown for 252 yards (versus 170 rushing), they would not have gotten the 3 point win over a 6-7 Louisville team.

Army was lucky to win by 2 over a 6-7 Missouri team that outgained Army by over 100 yards, in spite of having many players unavailable.

You take all the statistics you want. I’d rather have wins.

Agree. There isn't an offense better-suited for Rice than the triple option. Too many people here are concerned about style and entertainment. Just give me something that produces consistent wins.

(12-29-2021 11:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  Rice should be doing the same damn thing as the service academies. The triple option is the only offense that levels the playing field for the teams that can't recruit talent, like Army, Navy, Air Force, and Rice.

The advantage of the pure triple option for teams short of talent is that the players you recruit for offense are athletes rather than specialized talents, so you can maximize your depth on both sides of the ball and effectively enlarge your roster. The d-linemen you recruit can generally play o-line and vice versa, your quarterbacks can play safety (and those who get offers from the P5 are usually offered at safety), your fullbacks and tight ends are somewhat interchangeable and can play DE and LB, your halfbacks can play corners.

I am not a fan of the pure triple because it doesn’t give you enough of a passing game. I like combining it with a complete passing attack, like what Paul Johnson did with the Run-and-Shoot at Georgia Southern and Hawaii. Interestingly, he worked for two head coaches in Erk Russell and Bob Wagner who were defensive guys, and therefore perhaps more inclined to let him experiment on offense, kind of like Fred with Dinger.

(12-29-2021 11:29 AM)Pan95 Wrote:  So I know that aspects of this conversation have been re-hashed ad nauseum. But given the bowl results of Army and Air Force, it bears repeating. The service academies have been able to sustain success while operating similar versions of the triple option offense.

Army beat Missouri 24-22 (Blaze had 14 tackles btw). Air Force beat Louisville 31-28. If you include Navy, the service academies have had a tremendous run of success. It seems like a life time ago when Rice took down Air Force in the Armed Forces Bowl in Ft. Worth (2012 season).

Two out of the three teams are in conferences and still manage to remain successful despite familiarity.

So what gives? The academic profile is similar. The academic mission is similar. Is it the recruiting pool of national versus local that hurts?

In 2009, Rice lost at home, 63-14, to a triple option Navy team that IIRC had something like 21 Texans, probably none of whom that Rice offered. It’s not talent, it’s having a system that fits and maximizes your talent.

Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

(12-29-2021 01:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2021 11:29 AM)Pan95 Wrote:  So I know that aspects of this conversation have been re-hashed ad nauseum. But given the bowl results of Army and Air Force, it bears repeating. The service academies have been able to sustain success while operating similar versions of the triple option offense.

Army beat Missouri 24-22 (Blaze had 14 tackles btw). Air Force beat Louisville 31-28. If you include Navy, the service academies have had a tremendous run of success. It seems like a life time ago when Rice took down Air Force in the Armed Forces Bowl in Ft. Worth (2012 season).

Two out of the three teams are in conferences and still manage to remain successful despite familiarity.

So what gives? The academic profile is similar. The academic mission is similar. Is it the recruiting pool of national versus local that hurts?

In 2009, Rice lost at home, 63-14, to a triple option Navy team that IIRC had something like 21 Texans, probably none of whom that Rice offered. It’s not talent, it’s having a system that fits and maximizes your talent.

Consistent execution is also key to success which the academies drill into their cadets extensively on the field and off the field. Rice does neither and the lack of consistency shows in the field no matter what offense we run.

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

Yeah, I'd hate for that to happen to Rice.

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

we are lucky to be within 2 scores in the 4th

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

So does just about every other team.

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

Don't the Owls do that pretty consistently now?

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

Don't the Owls do that pretty consistently now?

Is anyone here really calling for an option run only team?

What I've taken away from this bowl season is that there a clearly more than a handful of G5 teams that can run on the supposedly more talented teams (P5 equivalent), while Rice grinds away at a 3.8 ypc average this year (after averaging 3.8, 3.6 and 2.8 the last 3 seasons).

And then consider that in Bailiff's last year, the team averaged 4.6 ypc from the spread.

Perhaps these numbers do tell the story.

NOTE: According to this site, Rice averaged 3.5 ypc against FBS opponents, which is good for 103rd in college football. I guess there are lots of bad rushing attacks out there.
https://www.teamrankings.com/college-foo...sh-attempt

(12-29-2021 01:51 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Fred talked about the huge advantage that the academies had in practice. They have unlimited numbers of practice dummies - critical for defense when going against cut blocking. There's no way their 1st or 2nd team defense will practice against their offense, because they would be beat up by Saturday. Rice does not have unlimited practice bodies.

By a quick count, it appears that the Rice roster for the final game of the season had 107 names. That's 2-deep on both sides of the ball plus almost 3-deep practice squads. That's a pretty good supply of practice dummies.

Quote:Plus, the option team loses when behind by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.

Which offense doesn't? Maybe something like the Air Raid gives you a marginally better chance, but only slightly, as the odds aren't good in either event. And neither really gives you a chance unless you can either get defensive stops or recover onside kicks.

The real dividing line is probably 3 scores in the 4th quarter. With 2 scores, a quarter is enough time for a running team to score, get a stop or recover an onside kick, and score again. A 3 score deficit means that probably only a passing team has any possible shot. That means score, get a defensive stop, score again, recover an onside kick or get another stop, and score a third time. Note that the defensive stops and onside kick are critical elements. Note also that even with a passing offense, the chances are pretty much slim and none, certainly not enough to base a choice of offense on.