When it comes to actual tangible evidence of divine origin, its prophecy that sets the Bible apart form all other religions. The Bible is a HUGE book, and nearly 1/3rd of it is just prophecy. And they are incredibly specific and detailed naming specific nations, specific peoples, specific kings, specific time frames, etc.

God openly stated in the OT that He alone is God and there are no other gods, and that HE PROVES that is so by telling us the end from the beginning. He openly challenges other religions and gods to tell us the things that are yet to come, so we will know they are gods. He challenges them to PROVE they are who they say they are, as He does. Its a mocking challenge because He says they do not exist at all.


Isaiah 41:21-23
“Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.
“Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;

Isaiah 44:6-8
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”


Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

One of the most impossible prophecies of all is about Israel being reborn in 1948 AD following the holocaust and WW2.

The book of Ezekiel gave a mathematical prophecy about the time that Israel and Jerusalem would serve in exile as punishment for their sin. The book of Number also prophecies that when the people turn from God to false gads and idol that he would punished them and give them over to their enemies. And one they returned if they fell away again he would multiple the punishment times 7.

Israel fell to Babylon as judgement form God and severed 70 years for their iniquity, and then were released to return. But they returned as a conquered nation under a foreign King. And other than a brief rebellion by the Maccabees, they were a conquered nation under foreign kings for the next 500+ years until Rome finally finished the job and destroyed them completely in 70 AD.

Ezekiel's prophecy was for 430 years, 70 of which were spent in Babylon. But of course they again fell away after the return from Babylon, so God multiplied the remaining 360 years times 7. That make its 2520 years.

But then amazingly that is EXACTLY what happened TO THE YEAR.

Keep in mind also that 606 BC, 70 AD, 1948 AD, those are all modern calendar dates, our modern calendar did not exist 2600 years ago. But that is not a problem at all, all you have to do is convert them to our modern year which is 365.24 days in a solar year.

That means 2520 biblical years on our modern Gregorian calendar is actually 2483 years.

606 BC + 2483 years = 1948 AD.

Following Hitler and the end of WW2, the UN began to set up a Jewish nation for the remaining Jews who survived the holocaust to deal with the "Jewish problem" following the end of WW2. They worked in the Holy Land with the Jews to form a government and passed a UN partition to create a state in 1947. In 1948 Israel declared independence as a state, and the UN ratified it in 1949.

That is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE that this happened in this way and fulfilled the 2600 year old prophecy in Ezekiel, BUT IT HAPPENED.

It took WW2, Hitler and the holocaust to make it happen, but history IMPOSSIBLY fell into place to bring this about.



https://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/276/

Its also worth noting that the Bible did not just nail the exact time from 2600 years ahead of time (which is IMPOSSIBLE), it also got all the key details correct.

The Bible predicted it would be NON Jewish nations that help set up modern Israel (The UN & others), it said the Jews would be a very secular people STILL rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. It said they would be totally surrounded on all sides by enemies calling for their destruction, it said Jerusalem would continue to be the center of political and religious conflict in the region, and the whole world would be caught up in it.

It describes their return as a people scattered and peeled, coming out of all nations after millennia, no longer within their correct tribes and exact bloodlines. A nation that would flourish greatly and grow into a world power, though it be one of the tiniest in the world.

You can even go back to the books of Moses and it says the Jews would be separated from God in the later days, and victims of world wide discrimination and racism as they were hated by people across the earth. There is no denying how strong antisemitism is across the globe and its growing.

Its even foreshadowed that many Christians would be strong supporters of Israel, but that Israel would also feel some jealously over Christians and that they were stealing their religion and God from them.

These things are TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE, they were written 2600+ years ago, centuries before Christianity, Jesus and His church were even born. Centuries before Rome was even a world power and would crucify Jesus and destroy Israel. Which of course the Bible also predicted would happen.

The story does not end there, the same books of the Bible lay out the culmination of all of this at the end. The antichrist and his kingdom will eventually become a one world ruler, and a key event will be a 7 year peace treaty signed concerning Jerusalem and the middle east. One that apparently allows the Jews to build a new Temple and being re instituting the OT law and sacrifices.

Of course these sacrifices will not be recognized by God because Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away sin. He fulfilled the OT sacrificial system, but of course the Jews do not understand that and still reject Him.

At some point the Antichrist himself will enter the Temple (at the peak of his political power), sit himself down in the most holy place inside the temple and declare himself God. Many of the Jews will react in horror and scream its blasphemy and then rebel against Him.

The AC will respond with great fury and vengeance (Ezekiel 38-39) and bring a league of nations into the Holy land and begin to destroy Israel and the Jews in a final holocaust even worse than WW2. Nearly 2/3rd of the Jews world wide will die, and in their darkest hour they will call out to Jesus and accept Him as their Messiah.

After 2000+ years of rejecting Him as a nation, they will FINALLY call out to him for salvation and forgiveness. This is actually the key event that triggers the 2nd coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon. This will fulfill what Jesus and God the Father both prophecy in the OT and NT:

Matthew 23:37-38
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Hosea 5:14-15
For I will be like a lion to Ephraim (the Northern Kingdom),
And like a young lion to the house of Judah (the Southern Kingdom).
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”


Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

The book of Zechariah also gives us many passages about these events and the aftermath.

Zechariah 14
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, (the 2nd coming at the Mt. of Olives as prophesied in Acts 1:9-12)

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Zechariah 12
2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

“The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. (modern Israel is mostly just Judah, much of the Northern Kingdom is occupied by Palestinians, Jordan, Syria, Lebenon,ect) 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Ezekiel 39 concludes with a powerful recap of Israel and all these events following Armageddon

Ezekiel 39

21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.” ’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”

These are the same type of machinations that lead to people predicting the end of the world each Summer. I am not convinced there is any scripture that attempts to date a future event, especially not one more than a century out. I might even suggest that positing a future date is foolish; Jesus himself said as much concerning at least one future event.

A plain reading of Ezekiel is that the 390 days are for the 390 years (back in time, not forward) in which the House of Israel lived in sin, which roughly aligns to its origin 390 years earlier when Solomon's kingdom was divided.

I'd be careful of stating that the OP interpretation "proves" the Bible, or sets "it" apart from other religions. The Bhagavad Gita has prophecies and a quick Google search will show how these were made with shrewd accuracy. The Quran/Islam also contain prophecies. Further, the Jewish religion uses Ezekiel in much the same way the Christian religion does.

I do like the Isaiah passages because they post the truth that human-made gods (our algorithms, even our interpretive framework for scripture) won't always match reality. Only the First and the Last knows these things.

(12-23-2021 11:40 PM)Crayton Wrote:  These are the same type of machinations that lead to people predicting the end of the world each Summer. I am not convinced there is any scripture that attempts to date a future event, especially not one more than a century out. I might even suggest that positing a future date is foolish; Jesus himself said as much concerning at least one future event.

A plain reading of Ezekiel is that the 390 days are for the 390 years (back in time, not forward) in which the House of Israel lived in sin, which roughly aligns to its origin 390 years earlier when Solomon's kingdom was divided.

With all due respect, you clearly did not even read this chapter much less the chapters surrounding it.

First off if you are arguing the Bible does not attempt to pinpoint any dates or time frames you need to read Daniel 9. One of the most famous passages in the Bible is pinpoint the exact timing of Jesus first coming. There are multiple places scripture clearly and purposely lays out dates or time frames for prophetic events.

Ezekiel prophecies for 7 years against Israel and Jerusalem until the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar begins in the 7th year. That is the context of this and all the surrounding chapters. You hadn't read it so you didn't realize that was the case.

Nebuchadnezzar had invaded and taken the kingdom of Judah captive, only Jerusalem now remains. The text says God is finally about to destroy Jerusalem completely for their corruption and sins. Its specific period of judgment given, just as Jeremiah predicts the 70 years of captivity in Babylon right about the same time. Both periods of judgment are given right before the fall to Babylon.

Its plain, straight forward language.

"they SHALL bear their iniquity"
"I WILL drive them out"
"I WILL lay hands upon thee"
"Israel SHALL eat the defiled bread of the Gentiles"
"I WILL break the staff of Jerusalem"
"they SHALL eat bread by weight"
"They SHALL drink water by measure with astonishment"
"They WILL consume away in their iniquity"

The subject of all those chapters are detail explanation of the sin Israel is committing in Ezekiels time, and how they have angered God and how and he is about to pass final judgment on them at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

The first 24 chapters of Ezekiel are about the pending fall of Jerusalem, why its about to fall under judgment and how corrupt and wicked the leaders and people have become, and how God can no longer stomach their wickedness and spiritual fornication with other false gods.





You literally just said blah blah blah, and then pretended like you made a coherent objection. You had not even read it.

You did not remotely debunk the fact that Ezekiel 4 pinpoints 1948 AD to the year. Its not an opinion, its math and as impossible as it is it pinpoints 1948 AD. After nearly 2500 years, Israel was miraculous reborn as a sovereign nation TO THE YEAR the judgment ended. There is no way you can deny the context, math and what history records happened.

You did not do any of that stuff, you just said blah blah blah gibberish gibberish, the end.

Thank you for the kindness. I very well may have bungled this. In at work now, but I’ll try and take some time this weekend to look through the greater context.

(12-24-2021 02:28 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Thank you for the kindness. I very well may have bungled this. In at work now, but I’ll try and take some time this weekend to look through the greater context.

Merry Christmas

(12-23-2021 11:57 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  You literally just said blah blah blah, and then pretended like you made a coherent objection. You had not even read it.

You did not remotely debunk the fact that Ezekiel 4 pinpoints 1948 AD to the year. Its not an opinion, its math and as impossible as it is it pinpoints 1948 AD. After nearly 2500 years, Israel was miraculous reborn as a sovereign nation TO THE YEAR the judgment ended. There is no way you can deny the context, math and what history records happened.

You did not do any of that stuff, you just said blah blah blah gibberish gibberish, the end.

The destruction of Israel is portrayed as imminent. Ezekiel is to warn the people around him that it is coming and also that they deserve it. The 390 years is to pantomime Israel living in defiance to God's law, defiling themselves. The 40 years represents the resultant siege.

Math? The only math is "each day represents a year." Your choice to multiply by 7, subtract 70, and remove a 1.4% calendar bonus is just that, YOUR choice. Ezekiel is not telling anyone to do these additional calculations. These calculations are not elucidated by a later prophet. The text just says "one day for each year."

Extraneous mathematical gymnastics is not convincing to any skeptic. Sorry. And it is a poor reason for yourself to be convinced. I wish you more.

Why don't we highlight the real struggle Ezekiel had performing this pantomime? Let us talk about the human anguish he felt knowing his people were destined for destruction. It reminds me of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem, knowing that even as the Son of God (a term also used of Ezekiel), his role was not one of temporal salvation. These are the truths that make scripture come alive, when we can see God's Spirit, his character, his emotion, in the author's words.

(01-18-2022 12:03 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The destruction of Israel is portrayed as imminent. Ezekiel is to warn the people around him that it is coming and also that they deserve it.

Yeah, I made that point twice already. That was the point you did not grasp in your previous response and I was trying to get across to you.

(01-18-2022 12:03 PM)Crayton Wrote:  The 390 years is to pantomime Israel living in defiance to God's law, defiling themselves. The 40 years represents the resultant siege.

This is just a repeat of your previous comment that I already debunked. They had been in defiance of God far longer than 390 years and they were for another 2500+ years following this event. So no, you can't apply in that way because its meaningless gibberish. They were a conquered nation living under a foreign king from the time of the return from Babylon all the way up the the Roman destruction of the Temple and city in 70 AD AND for another 1800+ years scattered across the whole earth. They are under judgment and punishment from God the entire time, not just 390 years.

(01-18-2022 12:03 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Math? The only math is "each day represents a year." Your choice to multiply by 7, subtract 70, and remove a 1.4% calendar bonus is just that, YOUR choice. Ezekiel is not telling anyone to do these additional calculations. These calculations are not elucidated by a later prophet. The text just says "one day for each year."

Just because you don't understand what is being said yet does not mean math is not math.

Its not "my choice" to understand they served 70 years in Babylon, that is just a statement of fact and history written in scripture. Following Ezekiels prophecy of 430 combined years of judgment for Israel and Jerusalem, they served 70 years in Babylon and then were allowed to return. That is not an opinion, its what actually happened in scripture.

Following their return from Babylon, they AGAIN, turned from God into wickedness and served other false gods just as they has done before.

Leviticus 26 states over and over again than when they turn from GOD and He kicks them out of the Holy Land, once they return and turn from Him again he will multiple their punishment by 7. Its repeated over and over and over again. Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24, 26:28.

There were 430 years of combined judgement for Israel and Jerusalem decreed by God for their sins, 70 of which they served following the decree in Babylon. That left 360 years. But they AGAIN turned from GOD as predicted in Leviticus 26, so as God decreed in Leviticus the remaining 360 is now multiplied by 7.

All we are doing is multiplying the 360 by 7 and then applying it to our modern calendar, because 1948 AD is a year on our modern solar calendar. A year is slightly longer on our modern calendar because its a solar based calendar. But a day is still a day, so you can do the math and get a precise count.



In simplified terms, its TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE for this to randomly work or by accident. Its pinpointing an exact event to the year and day some 2600 years ahead of time. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

No matter what angle you try to attack and dispute it from, there is no way on earth this should be remotely possible. Yet its right on the money and Israel was miraculously reborn as a nation that exact year 2600+ years later.

Its TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE, yet it happened.

And you are ignoring everything else about this. Just the fact that Israel was reborn as a nation nearly 2000 years after its destruction is a miracle, no other nation on earth has ever been completely destroyed and then reborn. Even before you look as Ezekiel prophetic count of years, just the fact they were destroyed and reborn at all as predicted by the Bible 2600 years ago is a remarkable testimony for the Bible being God's divine Word. At the same time it got all the surrounding details about this right, about how Gentile nations would set Israel up, how they would be secular and still rejecting Jesus, how they would be surrounded on all sides by enemies (Muslims) calling for their total destruction. Even how they would be attack by multiple nations on day 1. EVERYTHING about this is impossible, yet it happened and was somehow foreknown in the Bible 2600 years ago.

You are ignoring all of that.

(01-18-2022 12:03 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Extraneous mathematical gymnastics is not convincing to any skeptic. Sorry. And it is a poor reason for yourself to be convinced. I wish you more.

Why don't we highlight the real struggle Ezekiel had performing this pantomime? Let us talk about the human anguish he felt knowing his people were destined for destruction. It reminds me of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem, knowing that even as the Son of God (a term also used of Ezekiel), his role was not one of temporal salvation. These are the truths that make scripture come alive, when we can see God's Spirit, his character, his emotion, in the author's words.

You normal are not disingenuous in your responses but this part was extremely disingenuous.

I in no way suggested this was a SOLE reason to believe in the Bible, its one of MANY reasons. Its no different then us laying out the countless prophecies of Jesus' birth, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection as evidence the Bible is God's Word. This is just one example out of many we can point to. This is just the one I focused on here because its less known and also the most impossible of all.

If you truly believe in the Bible, you should have no issue with things like this. Any and all evidence we can give that the Bible is God's Word should be celebrated. Whether its modern Israel, the prophesies of Jesus, the prophecies of the church age, ALL evidence for the Bible should be celebrated and shared with non believers. Not attacked out of blind ignorance.

Why did I not focus on Ezekiels personal struggles? The same reason I did not focus on Abraham or Moses struggles with Pharaoh or Paul's struggles with Rome and the Jews in the first century. ITS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD. DUH

That was an incredibly disingenuous response. If you want to talk about a completely different subject then go start a thread about it. Don't come to mine and criticize me for not having done so, that is incredibly dishonest.

(12-22-2021 11:50 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  God openly stated in the OT that He alone is God and there are no other gods, and that HE PROVES that is so by telling us the end from the beginning. He openly challenges other religions and gods to tell us the things that are yet to come, so we will know they are gods. He challenges them to PROVE they are who they say they are, as He does. Its a mocking challenge because He says they do not exist at all.

I don’t think God is all that much concerned about us not being able to recognize He’s the real deal without needing to compare himself to things that aren’t.

Instead, I tend to agree with Paul, that even the invisible attributes of God are clearly discernible to everyone who is willing to believe what they prove, all by themselves.

No need to invent new math, nor mock things that aren’t real to prove what’s already been proven.

(02-15-2022 10:13 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(12-22-2021 11:50 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  God openly stated in the OT that He alone is God and there are no other gods, and that HE PROVES that is so by telling us the end from the beginning. He openly challenges other religions and gods to tell us the things that are yet to come, so we will know they are gods. He challenges them to PROVE they are who they say they are, as He does. Its a mocking challenge because He says they do not exist at all.

I don’t think God is all that much concerned about us not being able to recognize He’s the real deal without needing to compare himself to things that aren’t.

Instead, I tend to agree with Paul, that even the invisible attributes of God are clearly discernible to everyone who is willing to believe what they prove, all by themselves.

No need to invent new math, nor mock things that aren’t real to prove what’s already been proven.

Well that's great that you have decided your personal journey of faith applies to 7 billion other people, but the fact is it does not and your comment is incredibly short sighted. Everyone comes to faith from a unique place with unique reasons.

There are a large number of Christians today who came to faith over time by examining the evidence for the Bible and the Gospel, in concert with the work of the Holy Spirit. They grow up in a world that programs and brainwashes them to believe that accepting the Bible is foolish and a fairy tale with no basis in reality. The attack is powerful and an its programmed into them at an early age. Biblical apologetics (the case of the gospel and Christ) is a VITAL tool of evangelism in our modern culture.

Both Peter and Paul said we need to be ready to give and answer and be able to push back and defend the faith and the reasons WHY we believe in the Bible. When lost people ask why we believe, we don't just say "just because God said so" that is NOT a sufficient answer, it does not plant seeds of faith as the NT teaches us to do, particular in a secular society that has been brainwashed to mock the idea of ANY God.

As Paul wrote, one plants, another waters, and God gives the increase. If you're not willing to plant, and you are not willing to give sound reasons and have answers for people that have questions then at least stand out of the way and allow others to do so. I don't think there is anything worse than when a fellow Christian attacks people for planting seeds of fiath, for giving sounds reasons and evidence for Scripture and the Gospel.

And obviously I am not referring to this one single example of evidence I gave in this thread, I am talking about the years of multiple examples and multiple aspects of evidence for the Gospels and the Bible I have shared where you have a long history of showing up mocking and attacking the entire idea of it. What kind of Christian does that?

If you are not willing to study and be ready to give responses and reason for our faith, then respectfully at least stand out of the way and allow others to do so.

Your personal journey that led to your faith is not a copy and paste journey of 7 billion other people. Everyone has a unique journey and struggle that either kept them from faith or led them to it. If you have spent any time of your life sharing the Gospel and witnessing to the lost, then you of all people should already know that.

Most people are going to have questions and want to know why they should believe in Christianity over a gazillion other religions or faiths. Instead of just coldly telling them "just because" you should be prepared to give them an answer and examples for why we can trust in the faith and the Bible.

THAT is what the NT mandates all Christians to do.

Often well-meaning Christians spout off pious-sounding platitudes like “faith isn’t based on reason, that’s why it’s called faith”, or “God doesn’t need us to defend him, just preach the gospel.” That sounds spiritual, BUT ITS NOT BIBLICAL. That’s not the way Jesus operated, and that’s not the way the early church operated either.

I am always amazed at people who mock others for pointing to the Biblical prophets as evidence as to why we should believe in the gospel. One has to wonder have you even READ the NT at all?

The very first ever church sermon was given on the day of pentecost by Peter, the entire sermon is recorded in the 2nd chapter of Acts and it was NOTHING BUT quoting the prophets as to evidence of WHY they should repent and believe in Christ.

Acts tells us multiple times it was Pauls custom to spend multiple days in the synagogue debating and reasoning with the Jews as to why they should should believe in Christ. He did not just ignore the lost "just because God was self evident" (that is not even the context of that verse). He would also set up shop in lecture halls of the greeks and pagan Romans and spend weeks at a time debating them and giving them case for the gospel witnessing to all who would hear, reasoning with them over all questions as to why they should believe.

The word apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia, which refers to a speech of defense, typically for one’s own self. The word appears eight times in the New Testament. Its not a reference to an apology but the reasons why you believe in the gospel and the scriptures.

Sometimes it is used generally (Acts 22:1, 25:16; 1 Corinthians 9:3; 2 Corinthians 7:11, 2 Timothy 4:16), and other times it is explicitly connected to a defense of the Gospel (Philippians 1:7, 16; 1 Peter 3:15). Most notably in 1 Peter 3:15, when Peter says, “Always be prepared to give an answer [apologia] to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.”

Anyone who argues that apologetics is not a part of witnessing and sharing the gospel is ignorant of the NT and what the early church and Apostles both taught and did daily.

Apologetic thinking may not be all that’s needed, but it should be one of the tools in our shed — and it needs to be a sharp one. And of course this does not just apply to the lost, apologetics plays a massive role in spiritual growth in the saints, as many struggle with doubt and double mindedness because they are not well educated on the issue. When people question their faith, they lack sound answers and that plants seeds of doubt within them they battle against. When you know the facts and evidence, your faith grow by leaps and bounds in your daily life.

If I am ever tempted to lose my faith, I fall back on a four-pronged argument.

First, Pascal's Wager. If you believe in God but it turns out that there is no God, you are no worse off, and in fact your brief time on earth was probably better because you had faith to fall back on when confronted with difficult times. If you don't believe in God, but there is God, then you are worse off, and far worse off, for eternity.

Second, I was an engineering major for a couple of years before changing my mind, and I find science to be replete with frankly miraculous occurrences that would testify to the existence of a higher power with incredible strength and goodness. To cite one example often used to try to debunk the Bible, I find the theory of evolution to provide one of the strongest possible arguments for the existence of such a higher power. Evolution into higher and higher life forms basically violates the laws of thermodynamics, so there must be some non-material force at work to make it happen.

Third, I believe that higher power to be the Christian God and His Son, Jesus Christ, because I believe the Resurrection to be a true event. Using any standard by which we attempt to verify ancient historic events, it comes out way ahead in terms of credibility. The only argument against it is that it seems improbable on its face, but a power great enough to create everything could surely make what seems to be impossible happen.

Fourth, I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit because I have had multiple events in my life (I probably should be dead five times over) that can only be explained by the intervention of divine providence. Circling back to Pascal's Wager, this is clearly part of the life is better on earth if you do believe.

(02-16-2022 09:49 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If I am ever tempted to lose my faith, I fall back on a four-pronged argument.

First, Pascal's Wager. If you believe in God but it turns out that there is no God, you are no worse off, and in fact your brief time on earth was probably better because you had faith to fall back on when confronted with difficult times. If you don't believe in God, but there is God, then you are worse off, and far worse off, for eternity.

Second, I was an engineering major for a couple of years before changing my mind, and I find science to be replete with frankly miraculous occurrences that would testify to the existence of a higher power with incredible strength and goodness. To cite one example often used to try to debunk the Bible, I find the theory of evolution to provide one of the strongest possible arguments for the existence of such a higher power. Evolution into higher and higher life forms basically violates the laws of thermodynamics, so there must be some non-material force at work to make it happen.

Third, I believe that higher power to be the Christian God and His Son, Jesus Christ, because I believe the Resurrection to be a true event. Using any standard by which we attempt to verify ancient historic events, it comes out way ahead in terms of credibility. The only argument against it is that it seems improbable on its face, but a power great enough to create everything could surely make what seems to be impossible happen.

Fourth, I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit because I have had multiple events in my life (I probably should be dead five times over) that can only be explained by the intervention of divine providence. Circling back to Pascal's Wager, this is clearly part of the life is better on earth if you do believe.

excellent post

I posted the following in the other forum on this topic I highlighted:

The Gospel is one of the most overwhelmingly documented and verifiable events in all of antiquity. When you compare the demands laid on the gospel as compared to all other secular history there is a huge bias used against the NT not applied to any other historical event.

At the very least, secularists should be willing to admit the whole thing is clearly historically accurate, but they just have doubts about the Resurrection itself because its so hard to fathom. But literally everything else is clearly historically accurate by any impartial standard.

Even the resurrection itself is based upon incredibly well documented eyewitness testimony throughout the 1st century given any impartial measure, even if they do not accept it as real.

(02-16-2022 05:56 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 10:13 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(12-22-2021 11:50 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  God openly stated in the OT that He alone is God and there are no other gods, and that HE PROVES that is so by telling us the end from the beginning. He openly challenges other religions and gods to tell us the things that are yet to come, so we will know they are gods. He challenges them to PROVE they are who they say they are, as He does. Its a mocking challenge because He says they do not exist at all.

I don’t think God is all that much concerned about us not being able to recognize He’s the real deal without needing to compare himself to things that aren’t.

Instead, I tend to agree with Paul, that even the invisible attributes of God are clearly discernible to everyone who is willing to believe what they prove, all by themselves.

No need to invent new math, nor mock things that aren’t real to prove what’s already been proven.

Well that's great that you have decided your personal journey of faith applies to 7 billion other people, but the fact is it does not and your comment is incredibly short sighted. Everyone comes to faith from a unique place with unique reasons.

...

Most people are going to have questions and want to know why they should believe in Christianity over a gazillion other religions or faiths. Instead of just coldly telling them "just because" you should be prepared to give them an answer and examples for why we can trust in the faith and the Bible.

THAT is what the NT mandates all Christians to do.

When did I say that I "decided" my "personal journey of faith should apply to 7 billion people"?

When did (and how are were you able to) discern that I wasn't prepared to give a defense for my faith?

What I said wasn't a personal attack on you about your own opinions. I was merely stating my disagreement about them.

One thing that seems to be typical with the majority of people I've met or communicated with, who are as into Bible Prophecy like you seem to be, is that they tend to be very quick to judge. Maybe it's a problem with being so sure they've got everything figured out "prophetically"? Or maybe being quick to judge, is just their personality and what attracts them to being obsessed about Bible Prophecy?

But I could be wrong about that last paragraph. And it's because I know that I don't have God-like abilities to discern what motivates others. But the things you state about others you disagree with, seem to indicate you really think you do.

But only God could discern others' motives who you don't know. And you don't know me. You've never met me. Yet you continue to state emphatically, as if they're certainty, things about me that you'd have to possess some special knowledge about, regarding how I'd act or what I'd do (and even whether, how much, and which parts of the Bible I have or haven't read--which you repeatedly have done in prior posts).

And I believe (my own conclusion) that you keep stating that the Bible proves things it doesn't, by jumping to conclusions about things it states, that can be understood several other ways then you insist there's only one way to interpret them (YOUR way). And that's not getting into your motives about why you do it, or whether you're lying about anything, it's just my opinion. Do you see the difference? I'm admitting something I'm observing and stating an opinion about IS only my own opinion--not some knowledge about you that only God could have.

And you don't understand how this type of insisting that your guesses about things (prophecies that aren't provable, motives of others when they disagree with you, or whether what they claim they've done is true) that are only your guesses--but that you insist prove things they don't, actually turns off a lot of people who might actually be open to Christianity, but aren't, because they're told they have to agree with things as if they're fact about "prophecy" you've imagined proves how the Bible is true, which they don't.

And then, you often claim you know peoples motives who try to explain that your conclusions are just that-- only YOUR own conclusions. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're not. But the Bible doesn't prove them as true. And you can't see this, evidently.

Anyone who objectively reads through your back-and-forth posts with Crayton in this thread, can see what I'm talking about. And no prophetic or omniscient knowledge is necessary to see it, nor is it some judgment against you. It's only your own words changing from first appearing to be welcoming to hear their opinion, and then things becoming "personal" for you, because they end up not agreeing with your conclusions. You state how Crayton has been "disingenuous". But it's NOT because he actually was lying about anything (or at least that's not anything anyone but God could know, if he were), but ONLY because he didn't come to the same conclusion you did about something you cannot prove is true, but insist is true, nonetheless.

It would be nice if someone could be able to disagree with you, Eric, and be able to point out how your conclusions aren't the same as their own, and you be able to view the conversation without resulting to taking someone's rejection of your conclusions so personally, and then needing/deciding (or being motivated by whatever it is that leads you) to respond by claiming they're lying.

It would be nice if you could realize you DO behave in this way. Others do, too. And sometimes I take things more personally than I should. But I don't ever see you admitting that you COULD be wrong about things, when you clearly could be wrong about them.

(02-21-2022 12:35 PM)G-Man Wrote:  When did I say that I "decided" my "personal journey of faith should apply to 7 billion people"?

When did (and how are were you able to) discern that I wasn't prepared to give a defense for my faith?

What I said wasn't a personal attack on you about your own opinions. I was merely stating my disagreement about them.

One thing that seems to be typical with the majority of people I've met or communicated with, who are as into Bible Prophecy like you seem to be, is that they tend to be very quick to judge. Maybe it's a problem with being so sure they've got everything figured out "prophetically"? Or maybe being quick to judge, is just their personality and what attracts them to being obsessed about Bible Prophecy?

But I could be wrong about that last paragraph. And it's because I know that I don't have God-like abilities to discern what motivates others. But the things you state about others you disagree with, seem to indicate you really think you do.

That is the type of dishonest garbage I am talking about that you always pull in these threads.

You show up, make this completely dishonest and personal attack on me, then cry foul when I call you out on it. You do not engage in honest discussion of the subject, you don't engage in the subject AT ALL. You instead engage in completely dishonest attacks and make them very personal. Not some times, but every single time in these threads. You are not discussing the topic AT ALL, you are just attacking me. You literally have zero interest al all in the topic, you never do.

I did not remotely try pretend to have any god like ability to understand anything, and I did not remotely pretend to understand all aspects of Bible prophecy. In fact I am always quick to point out there are lot of future events we can't be hard core 100% on, we can't be militant and approach them as hard core doctrine nor should we divide up over them or attack each other over them. That's why you have never seen me attack people over their 2nd coming coming views, rapture views or anything about future events in prophecy and you never will. THAT'S A FACT, and you are flat out lying when you claim otherwise.

But again this is not even about FUTURE events or dealing with future prophecy, this is about things that have already come and past. Bible prophecy in apologetics is not about future prophecy, its almost entirely about things that happened 2000 years ago plus a few things from 1948. Things that give a strong witness to the divine truth of the Bible. Yet here you are dishonestly conflating the two in order to attack me and derail the thread. The thread is not about future events, stop pretending like it is.

The fact is you blanket attack everything I post on this subject and instantly make it very personal. You NEVER come to these threads and make a case for why non believers should consider the Bible, you just attack, attack, and attack and mock and make it personal. You just attack me, and attack the the entire idea of Biblical apologetics.

You never have a single positive thing to add, its just all negative every single time. Your not even willing to just stay out of the thread if you have nothing positive to add, you just have to come and go full on negative attack every single time.

You just show up and derail the thread, and here you go yet again. If you have no interest in the topic, then stop coming to the thread and purposely derailing it with personal attacks on me.

You even stalk me on the Memphis board in tiger Basketball threads, you just randomly pop up in basketball discussions and mock me for my faith in the Bible. You're a creepy little guy with a serious hair up his rear end over me.