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News Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Quote:With the Kyle Rittenhouse trial in the books and the teenager rightfully acquitted, the debate over self-defense laws has heated up. On the left, there is a wide consensus that self-defense with a gun is essentially never justified. Yet, on the right, there are sometimes misunderstandings about when you can and can’t claim self-defense.

A new viral video offers some important lessons on that front. The situation is complicated but I’ll try to provide as much detail as possible. On one side, you have Chad Read, who was ultimately shot in the encounter. He is the ex-husband of a woman named Christina Read. On the other side, it was Christina Read’s boyfriend, Kyle Carruth, with whom she had previously had an affair, and who ultimately shot Chad Read.

What was the argument about? It involved the fact that Christina Read had not abided by a court-ordered custody schedule. Chad Read showed up to collect his child, who was nowhere to be found. That’s when the initial argument took place between the two men in question.

Eventually, Kyle Carruth went inside to get a gun. That’s where the video picks up.

(WARNING: Graphic content)



Now, if your response to that video is “it was the shooter’s property, and the other guy was trespassing,” I’d encourage you to rethink that, if you are ever in the same situation. No matter what moral judgment you make here, Kyle Carruth is almost certainly going to be charged after this goes to a grand jury (Texas is a mandatory grand jury state). There are several reasons for that.

To start, it is important to note that the argument in the video predated the presence of the gun. If you engage in a verbal argument with someone and then choose to escalate it by going and getting a gun, you have now greatly complicated any claim of self-defense. That’s especially true if you started the confrontation. Again, I know it’s Carruth’s property, but the question isn’t what your opinion may be on property rights, but what the standards at play are in regards to self-defense.

If you’ve taken a concealed carry class, you were probably taught that you can’t start an argument and then finish it with a gun. That’s not to say that’s an absolute in every instance. Specifically, if the other person presents a clear imminent threat of bodily harm at the moment you shoot (i.e. pulls a gun on you first), then you could claim self-defense. But you better have ample evidence that happened to avoid an over-zealous prosecutor.

Still, in this case, the victim was unarmed while the shooter not only presented a gun first, but also shot at the victim’s feet as they were arguing. It was only after that first shot was discharged that the Read went for the gun. Read then lets go of the gun and Carruth finds himself some 12-15 feet away. Finally, then Carruth raises the gun and shoots twice, killing the victim.

Now, what are the complicating factors here to consider?

Some have mentioned the castle doctrine as applying, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. The castle doctrine in Texas requires the imminent commission of a felony. That means that if someone is breaking into your window to commit the felony of burglary, you can shoot them. Whether you should shoot them is another question, as taking a life is a serious thing that weighs on a person, but the law will likely protect you in that case. But in this situation, Read was not about to commit a felony, and shooting someone for trespassing is not protected under the Texas castle doctrine.

What about Read threatening Carruth once the gun was presented? The problem there is that you can not shoot someone for a verbal threat. That’s where the excessive use of force standard comes into play. Even when Read got in Carruth’s face, he did not raise his hand or indicate he was going to physically harm Carruth.

The disparity of force standard is also an issue here. Read was a large man and did walk toward the smaller Carruth to confront him. Yet, in general, two men arguing is not considered a disparity of force. Now, if Carruth were a 110-pound woman, that could change things, but he isn’t.

That leads us to the actual shooting, and the biggest reason Carruth is almost certainly not going to win a self-defense case. After Read goes for the gun following Carruth discharging it, Carruth finds himself a good 12-15 feet away. At that point, there is clearly no imminent threat. Carruth sets his stance, lines up his shot, and pulls the trigger twice. Read is struck by both bullets and collapses to the ground, dying as a result.

Further, while Carruth’s lawyer is claiming that Read grabbing the gun justifies the shooting, that’s going to be a tough sale because 1) Carruth escalated the situation by discharging the gun before Read grabbed it and 2) Read was a good distance away, no longer in danger of getting the gun when he was shot.

Had Carruth shot Read at the moment Read lunged towards him to get in his face, perhaps he would have a stronger claim (though, still weak overall because of the use of excessive force). But because he only shot Read after he had completely disengaged, put distance between him and the victim, and no longer faced an imminent threat, a self-defense claim is likely to fail.

To reiterate, I’m not writing this to start an argument over which man was right or wrong. People will have their opinions. Rather, I’m writing this as a warning to those who have firearms and could find themselves in a situation like this someday. The law is not kind to those who claim self-defense. It’s even less kind to those who bring a gun to a verbal argument and ultimately end up killing someone.

Remember, even if you do everything right, all it takes is an over-zealous prosecutor to decide you didn’t for you to end up in court and eventually prison. Your perfect argument isn’t going to matter in that case, only what the prosecutor thinks he can prove. That means when you discharge your firearm at someone, you better know that you’ve done everything possible to deescalate the situation and that you had no choice because, at that moment, you were under an imminent bodily threat.

Lastly, I do want to address the difference between Read grabbing the gun here and Rosenbaum grabbing Kyle Rittenhouse’s gun. There’s a reason the prosecutor wanted to prove that Rittenhouse pointed his gun at Rosenbaum. Had that happened, Rosenbaum would have had the right to defend himself, thereby making Rittenhouse the aggressor. But because Rittenhouse smartly retreated, did not point his weapon at anyone, and only shot when Rosenbaum physically attacked him, he was able to prevail in court.

When Carruth discharged his weapon prior to any physical altercation with Read, that was an escalation that gave Read the right to defend himself by going for the gun. Had Rittenhouse done that, he’d probably be in jail right now. That’s how fine the line is.

In short, just be careful. No amount of great internet reasoning is going to save you if you shoot someone without every box checked. And even then, you may still face charges and the possibility of your life being over. Sometimes it’s best to be the cooler head and take a hit to your pride than to be the one who kills someone and has to prove you were justified.

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Now the mom loses her original husband and her adulterous lover in one swell foop. As always, the kids are the ones who suffer.
11-27-2021 05:33 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
CP, does RedState.com give you permission to re-post all (or almost all) of their content? I’m good with it either way, but just honestly curious.
11-27-2021 05:51 PM
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maximus Offline
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Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
I saw that the other day...i think the guy is gonna get something like manslaughter ultimately.

The situation was 100% avoidable if the woman had only had the kid ready like she was supposed to. The saving grace for the shooter is the guy threatened to take the gun and use it on him.

Just a bunch of dummies

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11-27-2021 06:08 PM
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-27-2021 05:51 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  CP, does RedState.com give you permission to re-post all (or almost all) of their content? I’m good with it either way, but just honestly curious.

Do to this question, all future posts will be half the size that they are now.

03-shhhh
11-27-2021 06:25 PM
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Redbanksdog Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Someone was in the house, I wonder who it was ? Some how I think the mother sat this up for her boyfriend to do her Bidding. The boyfriend had no Dog in this hunt. This looked like Murder to me.
11-27-2021 07:23 PM
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UofMTigerTim Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Both are dumb asses.

The guy should have left and called the authorities. Now the child he was there to pick up is without a father.

It is the shooters house. When the victim didn't leave he should of retreated into the house and called the authorities. If the victim tired to enter the house then he would be justified in shooting him. In this case I don't think it was a justified shooting.
11-27-2021 07:50 PM
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olliebaba Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
That was murder. The other guy never brandished a weapon and threats are not deadly. This guy in black is in a heap of trouble. Like someone said he should have gone inside and called the cops and if the guy in green tried to force his way in then it's justifiable homicide.
11-27-2021 08:48 PM
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BlueDragon Online
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-27-2021 07:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  Both are dumb asses.

The guy should have left and called the authorities. Now the child he was there to pick up is without a father.

It is the shooters house. When the victim didn't leave he should of retreated into the house and called the authorities. If the victim tired to enter the house then he would be justified in shooting him. In this case I don't think it was a justified shooting.

It costs one his life and the other is almost certainly going to do some prison time.

One thing that jumps out at me is that the way the deceased man confronted the other man let’s me know they knew each other well. I presume even before his wife’s infidelity.

This does not fall under any category of protecting property or being physically attacked for self defense. The guy’s best defense would have been if they have both struggled for the gun. The deceased man never made an attempt to gain possession of the gun. In his rage he just tossed the guy out of the way and the gunman reacted in anger as his manhood was being challenged. Kinda cowardly if you ask me. Shooting someone unarmed who is just mouthing but never physically harms you doesn’t give the right to kill regardless of where you at. Not really sure why the shooter would have allowed his house to be an exchange place for the child anyway. Hello public places like McD. I think the ex wife played her lover like a fool. He has no idea what it’s about to cost him.
11-27-2021 09:01 PM
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HCJag Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Some people just don't need to own a gun and this is one of them. I don't know all the rules in stand your own ground (which I read Texas has), but there was no reason for him to leave and come back with a weapon. Claiming he was threatened was due to a situation created by him. Book him Danno.
(This post was last modified: 11-27-2021 09:13 PM by HCJag.)
11-27-2021 09:09 PM
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Redbanksdog Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-27-2021 09:01 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  
(11-27-2021 07:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  Both are dumb asses.

The guy should have left and called the authorities. Now the child he was there to pick up is without a father.

It is the shooters house. When the victim didn't leave he should of retreated into the house and called the authorities. If the victim tired to enter the house then he would be justified in shooting him. In this case I don't think it was a justified shooting.

It costs one his life and the other is almost certainly going to do some prison time.

One thing that jumps out at me is that the way the deceased man confronted the other man let’s me know they knew each other well. I presume even before his wife’s infidelity.

This does not fall under any category of protecting property or being physically attacked for self defense. The guy’s best defense would have been if they have both struggled for the gun. The deceased man never made an attempt to gain possession of the gun. In his rage he just tossed the guy out of the way and the gunman reacted in anger as his manhood was being challenged. Kinda cowardly if you ask me. Shooting someone unarmed who is just mouthing but never physically harms you doesn’t give the right to kill regardless of where you at. Not really sure why the shooter would have allowed his house to be an exchange place for the child anyway. Hello public places like McD. I think the ex wife played her lover like a fool. He has no idea what it’s about to cost him.

"One thing that jumps out at me is that the way the deceased man confronted the other man let’s me know they knew each other well. I presume even before his wife’s infidelity."

From what I heard the boyfriend was the one sleeping with his wife was the cause of the divorce.
11-27-2021 09:18 PM
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Halfcourt Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Very complex domestic dispute.

Shortman acted recklessly with emotion. There was no clear threat when shortman pulled the trigger. Dad was standing 8-10 feet away with his hands down and in clear sight.

While shortman stated it was his property, Dad believed his son (appears he have joint custody) was at the house, so has some reason to be there.

If shortman had acted when dad originally grabbed the gun, shortman would’ve had a case. But he didn’t and pulled the trigger when they were separated, Dad in a static non-threatening position.

He should do some time.
11-27-2021 10:06 PM
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Todor Online
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Nobody seemed to concerned about the guy laying there bleeding out. The woman videoing seemed more interested in continuing to argue "their" side. From what I saw, they're all idiot white trash.
11-27-2021 10:37 PM
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Chappy Online
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-27-2021 10:37 PM)Todor Wrote:  Nobody seemed to concerned about the guy laying there bleeding out. The woman videoing seemed more interested in continuing to argue "their" side. From what I saw, they're all idiot white trash.

Yeah that was so weird.
11-28-2021 08:22 AM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
Dude will do some jail time. Not justified.



11-28-2021 11:56 AM
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bobdizole Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-28-2021 08:22 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(11-27-2021 10:37 PM)Todor Wrote:  Nobody seemed to concerned about the guy laying there bleeding out. The woman videoing seemed more interested in continuing to argue "their" side. From what I saw, they're all idiot white trash.

Yeah that was so weird.

So weird. Nobody checked the guy for a pulse and little man was standing there talking so calm about what he just did.

There is a long history to this shooting, but either way guy is doing time. No jury will find that a justified shoot
11-28-2021 12:10 PM
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MileHighBronco Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
I'm having difficulty figuring out what the debate here is about. Seems pretty clear cut that Mr. tough guy with the gun is going to the big house.
11-28-2021 12:30 PM
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Redbanksdog Offline
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
I'm hearing that Kyle Carruth is married to a District Judge. Also Chad Read's new wife and 11 year old son were in the truck when he was shot. She was the one taking the video from inside the truck.
11-28-2021 01:06 PM
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
(11-28-2021 12:30 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I'm having difficulty figuring out what the debate here is about. Seems pretty clear cut that Mr. tough guy with the gun is going to the big house.

there shouldn’t be a debate … that was a calculated kill…
11-28-2021 01:12 PM
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banker Online
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
That guy is what the left believes Rittenhouse was. If you can’t see the situational differences you aren’t too bright.
11-28-2021 07:47 PM
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RE: Bone-Chilling Viral Video of a Shooting Sparks a Debate Over Self-Defense
That dude needs to go down for 1st degree murder with malice aforethought.
11-28-2021 08:17 PM
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