(11-15-2021 05:15 PM)fsquid Wrote:  LAw question as I'm unsure. If this is such a slam dunk like most on here think it is, why would the defense agree to allow lesser charges to be allowed in the jury instructions? Or can the judge decide to do that unilaterally?

Trial courts in Georgia absolutely have that authority (subject to appeal, obviously). Can’t say for Wisconsin.

(11-15-2021 04:41 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 04:37 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 03:47 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 03:46 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

that trigger finger... triggers me.

Can you elaborate? (Not a gun expert, but I am an avid supporter of 2A.)

Is it the fact that his finger is actually on the trigger? Seems very unsafe.

He is literally violating every gun safety rule there is

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He also didnt check to see if there was anything in the chamber. He assumed there wasnt because lunchbox told him there was nothing chambered.

(11-15-2021 06:04 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 04:41 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 04:37 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 03:47 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 03:46 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

that trigger finger... triggers me.

Can you elaborate? (Not a gun expert, but I am an avid supporter of 2A.)

Is it the fact that his finger is actually on the trigger? Seems very unsafe.

He is literally violating every gun safety rule there is

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He also didnt check to see if there was anything in the chamber. He assumed there wasnt because lunchbox told him there was nothing chambered.

Clear the gun is top of the list

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(11-15-2021 03:46 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

I would tend to think that the best possible outcome from that stunt would be for the gun to be loaded and for him to shoot it inadvertently, as long as nobody got hit or injured. That would complete making the mockery that this whole trial has become.

(11-15-2021 05:16 PM)hburg Wrote:  I thought the judge instructed the jury to not consider the lesser charge.

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I heard the judge say they could consider the 2nd degree degree surge, but only if deadlocked on first degree. In this case though, self defense is allowed in both 1st and 2nd degree, so by my listening 2nd is off the table. That may have been his instruction to clarify how important the self defense position is.

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(11-15-2021 08:32 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 05:16 PM)hburg Wrote:  I thought the judge instructed the jury to not consider the lesser charge.

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I heard the judge say they could consider the 2nd degree degree surge, but only if deadlocked on first degree. In this case though, self defense is allowed in both 1st and 2nd degree, so by my listening 2nd is off the table. That may have been his instruction to clarify how important the self defense position is.

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I meant that the jury could consider the 2nd degree charge if they decided that the 1st degree didn't apply.

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(11-15-2021 08:32 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 05:16 PM)hburg Wrote:  I thought the judge instructed the jury to not consider the lesser charge.

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I heard the judge say they could consider the 2nd degree degree surge, but only if deadlocked on first degree. In this case though, self defense is allowed in both 1st and 2nd degree, so by my listening 2nd is off the table. That may have been his instruction to clarify how important the self defense position is.

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IIRC, the judge has made the issue of self-defense a 'pass through' finding for the related charges.

If the top level homicide of Rosenbaum is justified by self-defense, then the finding 'rides through' to the lesser included charges based on the shooting of Rosenbaum.

Same for each of the 'families' of shootings -- that is if the top level charge for the shooting of Huber is justified by self-defense, then all the lesser includeds fall; if the top level charge for the shooting of Gasskewiz (sp) is justified by self-defense, then all the charges for Gass (however you spell it) fall as well.

Further, the reckless endangerment of third persons associated with each shot/shooting that is justified by self-defense, then the reckless endangerments also fall.

The defense is making the issue of self-defense the only thing they have on the table for each set of shootings. So either Kyle gets convicted of the top charge (for each shooting) and automatically (for the most part) all associated charges with a particular shooting, or the top charge fails and brings all associated and lesser includeds down with it.

The only way Kyle can be convicted of a lesser included without the associated upper included is if there is a deadlock on the particular top charge.

This line is grotesque from AD Binger during closing:

"You lose the right to self-defense when you're the one who brought the gun".

Uhhh......... no.

(11-15-2021 04:40 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  He's pointing a weapon, with his finger on the trigger, at the jury, in a live courtroom.

ALWAYS assume the gun is loaded.
NEVER put your finger on the trigger unless you plan to fire.
ALWAYS point your weapon is a safe direction.

The prosecutor actually likened the “victims” to brave people trying to stop an active shooter. You have to be such a POS scum bucket to reduce what many brave people have done in facing down and trying to stop real active shooters. Surprised he didn’t compare them to the guys who brought down the plane in PA on 9/11.

(11-15-2021 10:53 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 08:32 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 05:16 PM)hburg Wrote:  I thought the judge instructed the jury to not consider the lesser charge.

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I heard the judge say they could consider the 2nd degree degree surge, but only if deadlocked on first degree. In this case though, self defense is allowed in both 1st and 2nd degree, so by my listening 2nd is off the table. That may have been his instruction to clarify how important the self defense position is.

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IIRC, the judge has made the issue of self-defense a 'pass through' finding for the related charges.

If the top level homicide of Rosenbaum is justified by self-defense, then the finding 'rides through' to the lesser included charges based on the shooting of Rosenbaum.

Same for each of the 'families' of shootings -- that is if the top level charge for the shooting of Huber is justified by self-defense, then all the lesser includeds fall; if the top level charge for the shooting of Gasskewiz (sp) is justified by self-defense, then all the charges for Gass (however you spell it) fall as well.

Further, the reckless endangerment of third persons associated with each shot/shooting that is justified by self-defense, then the reckless endangerments also fall.

The defense is making the issue of self-defense the only thing they have on the table for each set of shootings. So either Kyle gets convicted of the top charge (for each shooting) and automatically (for the most part) all associated charges with a particular shooting, or the top charge fails and brings all associated and lesser includeds down with it.

The only way Kyle can be convicted of a lesser included without the associated upper included is if there is a deadlock on the particular top charge.

Thanks for a clear explanation.

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(11-15-2021 11:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  This line is grotesque from AD Binger during closing:

"You lose the right to self-defense when you're the one who brought the gun".

Uhhh......... no.

Yeah I don't know why the judge didn't correct that immediately.

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(11-15-2021 11:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  This line is grotesque from AD Binger during closing:

"You lose the right to self-defense when you're the one who brought the gun".

Uhhh......... no.

Apparently he missed law school the day they discussed the 2nd amendment.

(11-15-2021 03:46 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

He about to Alec Baldwin the jury

(11-16-2021 06:51 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 11:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  This line is grotesque from AD Binger during closing:

"You lose the right to self-defense when you're the one who brought the gun".

Uhhh......... no.

Yeah I don't know why the judge didn't correct that immediately.

Traditionally, lawyers are allowed a lot more leeway (to say what they want without fear of correction or interruption) in closing arguments. The judge may have wanted to respect that. Also, I’m sure he knows that the media is already portraying him as biased against the prosecutor. He will have to deal with the DA’s office again, and so he may not have wanted to “go there”.

Finally, he knew that the defense would get to make its own closing argument after Binger, and he may have wanted to hear what the defense said before intervening.

(11-15-2021 07:02 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 06:04 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 04:41 PM)maximus Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 04:37 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(11-15-2021 03:47 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  that trigger finger... triggers me.

Can you elaborate? (Not a gun expert, but I am an avid supporter of 2A.)

Is it the fact that his finger is actually on the trigger? Seems very unsafe.

He is literally violating every gun safety rule there is

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

He also didnt check to see if there was anything in the chamber. He assumed there wasnt because lunchbox told him there was nothing chambered.

Clear the gun is top of the list

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It's the very first thing you do, even if you just watched someone do it before handing one to you.

I know I preach a lot about gun safety and everyone arming themselves etc but at the end of the day there are certain people who really don't need to own a weapon. Those people have them taken away easily and turned on them usually. An elderly good friend is dead just because of that. He thought since everyone who gathered at our gathering place was armed he would arm himself. The first day he came in waving it around everyone in the place was ducking for cover.

I told him then and there that someone was going to take it from him and use it on him so to get rid of it. Less than a month later he was dead, shot with his own handgun by a young man he had been trying to help get his life together.

There are rules and best practices for a reason.

(11-15-2021 11:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  This line is grotesque from AD Binger during closing:

"You lose the right to self-defense when you're the one who brought the gun".

Uhhh......... no.

Yeah I couldn't believe he said that.

His fat partner had another great line...”everyone takes a beating at some point.”

I’m sure that one will go over well in the domestic violence cases he prosecutes.

These two are idiots.

(11-16-2021 08:39 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  His fat partner had another great line...”everyone takes a beating at some point.”

I’m sure that one will go over well in the domestic violence cases he prosecutes.

These two are idiots.

my wife was making fun of him... how he was just rambling on and on and was making no sense.